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Author Topic: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists  (Read 11054 times)

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Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #250 on: April 01, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
xiaomei, most of the time any kind of rape situation happens - whether it's attack rape on the town, abusive rape/forced sex by the partner at home, date rape or a teacher or priest making advances on a child - it's not something that just strikes from one second, even one minute, to the next. Most people who have described such situations make it clear that there was a lead-up for some time, a stretch where the assailant got increasingly pushy, close and perhaps ultimately aggressive. Oral research studies about rape provide the same picture. Unless the rapist has chosen to lace a drink with some dizzying drugs or resorts to jumping on the victim like a wolf, the classical "rape rape" situation, there IS nearly always a lead-up time that can provide a good deal of options for the victim to adjust her behaviour in order to discourage the rapist, to call attention from others or just get up and get out.

Sometimes the victim won't feel up to using those opportunties, or she may not have learnt to read them or maybe she is too cowed already, too immersed in the feeling that she really deserves to be punished or that anyway she's safe with this guy, if it's her partner: she knows him. I don't think most people would say one is to *blame* morally for one's getting raped if there are no changes to behaviour during the run-up time, but it does matter what you do during that time, whether you stay, what you say, what kind of movements you make and so on
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 06:11:47 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #251 on: April 01, 2013, 06:03:57 PM »
In fairness though, your numbers - even if she doesn't - don't show a 0% effectiveness.  They show that there is an effectiveness to the techniques.  So...yeah.  Not sure that there's actually a disagreement?
They show an incredibly tiny effectiveness that may not actually be there. (I'm arriving at the 0.42% number based partly on the study's p-value of 0.9.) Certainly not enough to be worth realistic consideration for the time, effort, and sacrifices involved. Better to focus that energy on victim-blaming, which has been my point for a while now.

Ephiral,

Regrettably, I do not.  those studies have problems, and I have severe reservations concerning the data selection bias of the authors, but I have nothing hard to offer.  My  main objection to the idea that women can do nothing to affect target selection at the vary least is that the basic situational awareness habits I've spoken of are the things that influence predator behavior.  And rapists are predators.

And part of my objection is ideological.  There is nothing we can do?  Nothing to protect ourselves?  Then we are indeed helpless, our independence as women as we perceive it is an illusion that can be stripped from us by any man at any time.
There's plenty you can do - it's just not "watch what you say, watch what you wear, watch what you drink". It's social-justice-movement level work, pushing the culture to a place where blaming the victim and dismissing the rapist is never acceptable. All the focus on the former is time and energy taken away from the latter.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 06:06:10 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #252 on: April 01, 2013, 06:07:29 PM »
Preventing the development of future rapists is vital.

But.  how do we deal with the rapists of today, who have already developed?

 I question the authors of that study, Ephiral, I question their motivations.  I strongly suspect they are embracing victimhood as a path to power, a passive-aggressive path.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #253 on: April 01, 2013, 06:13:03 PM »
Ephiral,

Proper situational awarenss is not watch what you say, wear, or drink.

Ir is "Watch who is around you, watch where you are, watch who is watching you.

Edited only for spelling, I freely admit that my blood is up.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 06:17:56 PM by Healergirl »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #254 on: April 01, 2013, 06:13:59 PM »
I think Healergirl is taking a more moderate stance on basic safety for both men and women, like I was saying earlier.

Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #255 on: April 01, 2013, 06:17:19 PM »
Your comments are very unsettling, gaggedLouise. From my experiences, and from helping dozens and dozens of people, along with reading various sources, even when people see the "warning signs", the point is that they trust their attackers and that their attackers convince them that they (the attackers) wouldn't hurt them.

It's distressing to imply that people are at fault for not doing the right things before the rape occurrs. You say people wouldn't blame the victim, yet they do all the time. I have heard the whole "well why didn't you just leave the situation" in response to rape so many times. It's straight up victim blaming, and it's especially horrific that you imply that children can do something to stop that.

Ephiral,

Regrettably, I do not.  those studies have problems, and I have severe reservations concerning the data selection bias of the authors, but I have nothing hard to offer.  My  main objection to the idea that women can do nothing to affect target selection at the vary least is that the basic situational awareness habits I've spoken of are the things that influence predator behavior.  And rapists are predators.

And part of my objection is ideological.  There is nothing we can do?  Nothing to protect ourselves?  Then we are indeed helpless, our independence as women as we perceive it is an illusion that can be stripped from us by any man at any time.

Like Ephiral said, getting involved in changing attitudes about rape/sex is something people can do to stop rape. As for stopping "today's rapists", reshaping their ideas about sex/rape will also hopefully change them. There has been some success in this already.

I question the authors of that study, Ephiral, I question their motivations.  I strongly suspect they are embracing victimhood as a path to power, a passive-aggressive path.
This is ridiculous.

Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #256 on: April 01, 2013, 06:18:50 PM »
Ephiral,

Proper situational awarenss is not watch what you say, wear, or drink.

Ir is "Watch who is around you, watch where you are, watch who is watching you.

Edited only for spelling, I freely admit that my blood is up.

This ignores that rape is committed in majority by people the victim knows.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #257 on: April 01, 2013, 06:22:04 PM »
This ignores that rape is committed in majority by people the victim knows.

Not exactly.  If Uncle Ray is looking at me in a creepy way, or 'Friend Bob' decides to grope me instead of our usual friendly hug, I can still go into alert mode.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #258 on: April 01, 2013, 06:22:22 PM »
*shrugs*  My Opinion based on life experience, yours differs.  I can live with any perceived ridiculousness in your eyes.

And no, Xiaomei.  It does not.  Rapists do not act like flipping a switch - unless they are already primed by alcohol or other drugs or psychological disorders of a rather severe magnitude..  There are warning signs that can be acted on.  The victim has many reasons - wishful thinking is a big factor- for not responding to the warning signs, but the warnings are there.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #259 on: April 01, 2013, 06:24:55 PM »
Situational awareness is all well and good - and frankly, everybody should maintain a reasonable level of it. But again, it's a very minor help in this case. Why is all of the attention being paid to what victims do, when at best this will do nothing at all to stop 99.58% of rapes?

Offline Valthazar

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #260 on: April 01, 2013, 06:26:16 PM »
I would imagine there are certain warning signs in a boyfriend/husband/acquaintance :

-increased temper/violence/aggression
-outburts/tantrums

Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #261 on: April 01, 2013, 06:30:00 PM »
*shrugs*  My Opinion based on life experience, yours differs.  I can live with any perceived ridiculousness in your eyes.

And no, Xiaomei.  It does not.  Rapists do not act like flipping a switch - unless they are already primed by alcohol or other drugs or psychological disorders of a rather severe magnitude..  There are warning signs that can be acted on.  The victim has many reasons - wishful thinking is a big factor- for not responding to the warning signs, but the warnings are there.

Rapists do not commit rape because of alcohol or drugs or psychological disorders, and it's insulting that you say that. I never said rapists act like flipping a switch. As it has been pointed out earlier in this thread, male (99%) rapists think that all men are rapists. It is their attitude/a want for power that causes rape to happen.

Again why aren't we focusing the discussion on stopping these attitudes? Instead we discuss on what victims can do to stop rape, which can be argued that there isn't much anyone can do to not be a victim of rape.

Also all this discussion of warning signs completely ignores the psychology of domestic violence, ignores that there is trust in interpersonal relationships, ignores how rapists say "I'm just having a bad day" to explain their actions, ignores that people give others second chances, etc etc.

Offline Kythia

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #262 on: April 01, 2013, 06:31:29 PM »
They show an incredibly tiny effectiveness that may not actually be there. (I'm arriving at the 0.42% number based partly on the study's p-value of 0.9.) Certainly not enough to be worth realistic consideration for the time, effort, and sacrifices involved. Better to focus that energy on victim-blaming, which has been my point for a while now.
There's plenty you can do - it's just not "watch what you say, watch what you wear, watch what you drink". It's social-justice-movement level work, pushing the culture to a place where blaming the victim and dismissing the rapist is never acceptable. All the focus on the former is time and energy taken away from the latter.

Yeah, looks like that is where we hit the wall of "we just plain don't agree".  Assuming your numbers are correct - which I'm happy to do so, dont interpret this as a call to show your working - then there is an effectiveness to the limited set of techniques discussed in the studies (I actually cant find a non-paywall copy of it, annoyingly).

I don't think this is an either/or - your "time and energy taken away from the latter".  A zero sum game.

For me, those methods have an effectiveness and there is no reason not to use them.  Even if they had zero effectiveness but made me feel safer then I would advocate, the fact that they not only make people feel safer but actually make them safer makes it more so in my eyes.

I can understand your point that there may well be more effective methods but lets not criticise a solution for not solving every single aspect of a problem.  Unless other methods show a 100% effectiveness AND are mutually incompatible with others AND have all of the attending benefits (perception of safety, reduction in PTSD) then I really don't see the the objection.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #263 on: April 01, 2013, 06:32:30 PM »
As much as I do not want to reply to you Val, I feel compelled because the information you are giving is blatantly wrong.  There are not "certain" warning signs especially not those being listed.  What you are doing is giving out the stereotype portrayed by social media.  Rapists are not necessarily aggressive or throwing tantrums.  Rapists can be quite calculating, methodical, quiet, unassuming, etc. etc.  Afterall, most rapists gain the trust of their victim before actually raping their target.  Many of them develop quite a reputation to deflect blame and even select from the same victim pool.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #264 on: April 01, 2013, 06:37:00 PM »
Probably because that study seems to contradict the known effectiveness of Situational Awareness on predator behavior?

I put emphasis on what women - not victims, your choice of word sets off warning bells in my mind as to how you see yourself in relation to men - I put emphasis on what women do because if we act helpless, then we are perceived as helpless, and will  become helpless.  If we act like we have control, then we are far more likely to gain some control - not full control, but some.  Relationships between people are very strongly influenced by perceptions.
 
Xiaomei,

Rapists are not influenced by their consumption of alcohol?  Really? is that a position you choose to defend?  Really?

http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/alcohol/Vanessa/vwrapefactsheet.htm

Lots of factoids on that link.  It lists 78 percent of victims as knowing their attacker, which may be a tad low.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #265 on: April 01, 2013, 06:40:34 PM »
Yeah, looks like that is where we hit the wall of "we just plain don't agree".  Assuming your numbers are correct - which I'm happy to do so, dont interpret this as a call to show your working - then there is an effectiveness to the limited set of techniques discussed in the studies (I actually cant find a non-paywall copy of it, annoyingly).

I don't think this is an either/or - your "time and energy taken away from the latter".  A zero sum game.

For me, those methods have an effectiveness and there is no reason not to use them.  Even if they had zero effectiveness but made me feel safer then I would advocate, the fact that they not only make people feel safer but actually make them safer makes it more so in my eyes.

I can understand your point that there may well be more effective methods but lets not criticise a solution for not solving every single aspect of a problem.  Unless other methods show a 100% effectiveness AND are mutually incompatible with others AND have all of the attending benefits (perception of safety, reduction in PTSD) then I really don't see the the objection.
The objection is twofold:

1. If the marginal utility is 0.42%, then realistically, the techniques should be getting 0.42% of the attention and effort, at best. If, that is, our goal is to minimize the actual harm done. Instead, it seems like 90+% of the focus is on what the victim did/could do. This is just plain akrasia.

2. It is a zero-sum game. People's time and energy is not unlimited. This limited resource should be spent in ways that address the problem as effectively as possible, if our goal is to solve the problem and not just feel good about it. The effort involved in following all of these rape-prevention checklists is completely and totally disproportionate to a marginal utility of 0.42%. It's like trying to solve the homeless problem by building houses out of solid-gold bricks shipped from halfway around the world. Sure, you might make houses for some people, but your resources would be better invested in building a hundred or a thousand times as many normal houses.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #266 on: April 01, 2013, 06:41:58 PM »
As much as I do not want to reply to you Val, I feel compelled because the information you are giving is blatantly wrong.  There are not "certain" warning signs especially not those being listed.  What you are doing is giving out the stereotype portrayed by social media.  Rapists are not necessarily aggressive or throwing tantrums.  Rapists can be quite calculating, methodical, quiet, unassuming, etc. etc.  Afterall, most rapists gain the trust of their victim before actually raping their target.  Many of them develop quite a reputation to deflect blame and even select from the same victim pool.

Pumpkin Seeds,

I am a very friendly person on these forums, and the last thing I want to have happen is for philosophical disagreements to result in losing friendships, and creating enemies.  I see your perspective, but there is no need to create rifts between us as posters on a forum.  Let us be at peace here, and agree to disagree on our differences.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #267 on: April 01, 2013, 06:44:09 PM »
Your comments are very unsettling, gaggedLouise. From my experiences, and from helping dozens and dozens of people, along with reading various sources, even when people see the "warning signs", the point is that they trust their attackers and that their attackers convince them that they (the attackers) wouldn't hurt them.

It's distressing to imply that people are at fault for not doing the right things before the rape occurrs. You say people wouldn't blame the victim, yet they do all the time. I have heard the whole "well why didn't you just leave the situation" in response to rape so many times. It's straight up victim blaming, and it's especially horrific that you imply that children can do something to stop that.

Quote from: gaggedLouise
Sometimes the victim won't feel up to using those opportunties, or she may not have learnt to read them or maybe she is too cowed already, too immersed in the feeling that she really deserves to be punished or that anyway she's safe with this guy, if it's her partner: she knows him. I don't think most people would say one is to *blame* morally for one's getting raped if there are no changes to behaviour during the run-up time, but it does matter what you do during that time, whether you stay, what you say, what kind of movements you make and so on
(bolded here)

I didn't think I needed to say explicitly that I agree with the many people who do NOT blame rape victims over what they did not do, or did, but who still hold that most rape victims have some room for action well beyond simply punching the assailant in the nuts and running. before the sticking of bits into the other's biology has started, that is. How you're moving, what you drink and how much, the way you talk, keeping track of who is watching you and *how* different people are looking at you, following you - all of that does matter. But you just seem to wish to throw the baby out of the bathtub together with the water draining out, to concentrate in victimhood and ultimately victimizing structures that can strike down anyone without warning.


Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #268 on: April 01, 2013, 06:46:28 PM »
Probably because that study seems to contradict the known effectiveness of Situational Awareness on predator behavior?

I put emphasis on what women - not victims, your choice of word sets off warning bells in my mind as to how you see yourself in relation to men - I put emphasis on what women do because if we act helpless, then we are perceived as helpless, and will  become helpless.  If we act like we have control, then we are far more likely to gain some control - not full control, but some.  Relationships between people are very strongly influenced by perceptions.
 
Xiaomei,

Rapists are not influenced by their consumption of alcohol?  Really? is that a position you choose to defend?  Really?

http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/alcohol/Vanessa/vwrapefactsheet.htm

Lots of factoids on that link.  It lists 78 percent of victims as knowing their attacker, which may be a tad low.

You have misunderstood something because no where have I advocated for women to act helpless. I have said many ways in which women can be involved in stopping rape through social justice, just as Ephiral has. I think your idea that if women act like they have control, then they can control what happens to them is absolutely ridiculous. I'll take your own link, and look at that. It says that 62% of American women were raped under the age of 18. So how do children do this? How do they gain control? How can they protect themselves?

So rapists are under the influence of alcohol- but that doesn't change the mindset that they have already formed while sober. Alcohol isnot an excuse to rape. Your same link Says that sexual assault uses power and control. So yes, I will defend my position that alcohol doesn't make people into rapists.

Offline Kythia

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #269 on: April 01, 2013, 06:51:08 PM »
The objection is twofold:

1. If the marginal utility is 0.42%, then realistically, the techniques should be getting 0.42% of the attention and effort, at best. If, that is, our goal is to minimize the actual harm done. Instead, it seems like 90+% of the focus is on what the victim did/could do. This is just plain akrasia.

2. It is a zero-sum game. People's time and energy is not unlimited. This limited resource should be spent in ways that address the problem as effectively as possible, if our goal is to solve the problem and not just feel good about it. The effort involved in following all of these rape-prevention checklists is completely and totally disproportionate to a marginal utility of 0.42%. It's like trying to solve the homeless problem by building houses out of solid-gold bricks shipped from halfway around the world. Sure, you might make houses for some people, but your resources would be better invested in building a hundred or a thousand times as many normal houses.

Hmmm, thats interesting.  I think we might actually be having two different conversations here without realising it.

I can, when I wander home from the pub, put these things into effect.  They have an effectiveness and aren't simply a waste of my time.  My point is that arguing I shouldn't be doing them because either a) I shouldn't have to or b) they don't work is incorrect.  Doing them costs me nothing and they do work.

Your argument seems to be broader and more political - about where funding resources should go, etc etc etc.  I'd agree with your two objections, broadly.  But I would still say that when I wander home I should take precautions.  They work, we both agree on that.

Just because they're not a full solution is no reason to throw that research out.  Yes, it can gide avenues for future research, sure.  But arguing that awareness and suchlike is worthless is clearly not the case and being that the research is done there is no point not learning the lessons from it that we can.

Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #270 on: April 01, 2013, 06:54:23 PM »
(bolded here)

I didn't think I needed to say explicitly that I agree with the many people who do NOT blame rape victims over what they did not do, or did, but who still hold that most rape victims have some room for action well beyond simply punching the assailant in the nuts and running. before the sticking of bits into the other's biology has started, that is. How you're moving, what you drink and how much, the way you talk, keeping track of who is watching you and *how* different people are looking at you, following you - all of that does matter. But you just seem to wish to throw the baby out of the bathtub together with the water draining out, to concentrate in victimhood and ultimately victimizing structures that can strike down anyone without warning.

Because this situational awareness has be taught to people and it's not effective. Rape still happens. Situational awareness, as it's taught, more often than not focuses on the the stranger lurking in the shadows. Besides this board, I don't see much that discusses being aware around people you trust. I think, and I've stated this so many times, that more effort needs to be targeted at changing rapist behavior, not telling people ineffective techniques that ultimately have little results.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #271 on: April 01, 2013, 06:55:12 PM »
Hmmm, thats interesting.  I think we might actually be having two different conversations here without realising it.

I can, when I wander home from the pub, put these things into effect.  They have an effectiveness and aren't simply a waste of my time.  My point is that arguing I shouldn't be doing them because either a) I shouldn't have to or b) they don't work is incorrect.  Doing them costs me nothing and they do work.

Your argument seems to be broader and more political - about where funding resources should go, etc etc etc.  I'd agree with your two objections, broadly.  But I would still say that when I wander home I should take precautions.  They work, we both agree on that.

Just because they're not a full solution is no reason to throw that research out.  Yes, it can gide avenues for future research, sure.  But arguing that awareness and suchlike is worthless is clearly not the case and being that the research is done there is no point not learning the lessons from it that we can.
...I think you're right, we've reached a point of rupture. For the record, I do hold that the majority of advice given to potential victims is useless - about the only useful stuff I've seen boils down to "Maintain situational awareness and do not trust easily, regardless of your relationship with the other person." That said, situational awareness? Useful, yes. Won't argue that. What I'm arguing, rather, is that we spend way too much effort - this very thread being a shining example - on telling potential victims what to do, and nowhere near enough on, y'know, stopping victim-blaming. Actually, worse than that - a lot of the focus on potential victims feeds directly back into victim-blaming.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #272 on: April 01, 2013, 06:55:25 PM »
Ephiral,

That marginal utility of .42 percent.  The techniques I speak of are standard crime avoidance techniques across the board.  Are there any studies that show personal security action equally ineffective against other crimes?

Xiaomei,

i agree that your long term goals are sound.  But then how do we respond to the current cro of predators?  I think you do believe that we are helpless in those terms.

And your comment:  "if women act like they have control, then they can control what happens to them is absolutely ridiculous."



Is not quite what I said:  If we act like we have control, then we are far more likely to gain some control - not full control, but some."

  Your comment is very much in line with your absolutist binary thinking on this subject.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #273 on: April 01, 2013, 06:58:12 PM »
Hm.  why do you have the idea that practicing Situational Awareness has a cost?  It is free.  It  does not detract from planned effort devoted to organiztion for future change.

Offline Maiz

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #274 on: April 01, 2013, 07:00:54 PM »
Xiaomei,

i agree that your long term goals are sound.  But then how do we respond to the current cro of predators?  I think you do believe that we are helpless in those terms.

And your comment:  "if women act like they have control, then they can control what happens to them is absolutely ridiculous."

Is not quite what I said:  If we act like we have control, then we are far more likely to gain some control - not full control, but some."

  Your comment is very much in line with your absolutist binary thinking on this subject.

By re-educating them not to rape. Again, earlier in this thread someone posted a link about how an anti-rape campaign seemed to have some effect. Now imagine if we started doing that on a large scale.

Please illuminate me- give me some reading on how by acting like we have control we get control. Also how does that apply to the 62% of american women who were raped under the age of 18? You did not address that.