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Author Topic: Any Conservatives on E?  (Read 4257 times)

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Offline errantwandering

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2012, 06:04:35 PM »
While I'll agree that Obama isn't exactly far left by the traditionally accepted definition of the term.  His foreign policies, particularly involving drone strikes, have been absolutely bloodthirsty, and other than his blessedly sane, poll driven stance on gay marriage/gays in the military he's been awful on human rights.  That said, how is he not socialist?  He's openly, repeatedly called for raising taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for social programs, has repeatedly intervened in the economy to the point of buying up stock in US corporations....isn't that the textbook definition of socialism?

Offline Hemingway

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2012, 06:19:54 PM »
That said, how is he not socialist?  He's openly, repeatedly called for raising taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for social programs, has repeatedly intervened in the economy to the point of buying up stock in US corporations....isn't that the textbook definition of socialism?

In a word, no. At best, that's social democracy. But take it from someone living in a social democracy: Obama isn't a social democrat.

Offline errantwandering

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2012, 06:31:29 PM »
You're right, my bad, it is social democracy, not true socialism. 

Offline Hemingway

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2012, 06:43:00 PM »
You're right, my bad, it is social democracy, not true socialism.

I was right in the process of elaborating on what I wrote, because I felt it wasn't really adequate.

Basically, though, socialism is a term that's very often misunderstood - often deliberately as a political tool - and has different meanings depending on who you ask. It's an umbrella that covers many different political movements. Social democracy, strictly speaking and in my understanding, is not actually one of them, because it's a system that still includes a free market. I perhaps socialism is best understood, at least now, today, as a critique of unregulated capitalism.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2012, 07:12:00 PM »
America answered and robbed him of the majority in the house and weakened him in the senate.

Since the resulting Congress has achieved an approval rating just behind AIDS and syphilis, it's not really the sort of thing you'll be wanting to draw attention to.

Offline Ryuka Tana

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2012, 07:27:47 PM »
Since the resulting Congress has achieved an approval rating just behind AIDS and syphilis, it's not really the sort of thing you'll be wanting to draw attention to.

"And with that Cyrano, I'm out, because that's the most hilarious (and totally awesome) thing I've seen here, yet, and it can only go downhill again."

Offline Stattick

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2012, 07:42:35 PM »
Since the resulting Congress has achieved an approval rating just behind AIDS and syphilis, it's not really the sort of thing you'll be wanting to draw attention to.

*applauds*

Offline Question Mark

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2012, 07:55:19 PM »
Since the resulting Congress has achieved an approval rating just behind AIDS and syphilis, it's not really the sort of thing you'll be wanting to draw attention to.

*brushes away tear*  Th-that was beautiful man!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2012, 08:00:00 PM »
Now I'm curious. Where do you find an approval rating for AIDS and syphilis, anyways?

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2012, 08:20:10 PM »
Now I'm curious. Where do you find an approval rating for AIDS and syphilis, anyways?

The Federal Department of Jocularity publishes an annual table of approval ratings for everything from Being Mauled by a Bengal Tiger to Masturbating With a Cheese Grater in its "Approval Ratings of Things That Nobody Approves Of" report*. AIDS and syphilis turn up in the lower ranges. I keep the data in my rectum.

(* Although remembering where I'm posting this, I suppose it's putting a bit strongly to say that "nobody" approves of being mauled by a Bengal tiger or masturbating with a cheese grater.)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:33:49 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline KalebHyde

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2012, 08:35:12 PM »
Since the resulting Congress has achieved an approval rating just behind AIDS and syphilis, it's not really the sort of thing you'll be wanting to draw attention to.

True, Congress has an extremely low approval rating, directly attributed to Harry Reid's total mismanagement of the Senate.  To actually blame Republican filibusters for Democratic impotence, for their complete failure to lead, is foolish.   

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2012, 08:39:45 PM »
Wait, I thought we weren't allowed to blame some one else.  Oh nevermind...that only applies to liberals.  Carry on.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2012, 09:41:40 PM »
True, Congress has an extremely low approval rating, directly attributed to Harry Reid's total mismanagement of the Senate.  To actually blame Republican filibusters for Democratic impotence, for their complete failure to lead, is foolish.

More like the Republicans refuse to approve anything that doesn't increase the skim from the poor and working class into the pockets of Wall Street elite.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2012, 10:14:20 PM »
The Federal Department of Jocularity publishes an annual table of approval ratings for everything from Being Mauled by a Bengal Tiger to Masturbating With a Cheese Grater in its "Approval Ratings of Things That Nobody Approves Of" report*. AIDS and syphilis turn up in the lower ranges. I keep the data in my rectum.

(* Although remembering where I'm posting this, I suppose it's putting a bit strongly to say that "nobody" approves of being mauled by a Bengal tiger or masturbating with a cheese grater.)

Bengal Tiger/Cheese Grater 34 Go! ;D

Offline Ryuka Tana

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2012, 04:30:10 AM »
"I'm glad I forgot I decided to stop reading this and followed. It actually maintained its amusement factor. Though I'm pretty sure the thread is way off topic. It seems to have lost its OP in the dust."

Offline Vekseid

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2012, 10:22:03 AM »
While I'll agree that Obama isn't exactly far left by the traditionally accepted definition of the term.  His foreign policies, particularly involving drone strikes, have been absolutely bloodthirsty, and other than his blessedly sane, poll driven stance on gay marriage/gays in the military he's been awful on human rights.  That said, how is he not socialist?  He's openly, repeatedly called for raising taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for social programs, has repeatedly intervened in the economy to the point of buying up stock in US corporations....isn't that the textbook definition of socialism?

No, it isn't.

Socialism is the full, continuous, public ('social') ownership of the means of production. It has nothing at all to do with taxes. The government doesn't just 'own stock' in production centers, it calls all shots. The USPS is 'socialist'. The US Army Corps of Engineers is 'socialist'. A universal health care system can be 'socialist' (government directly provides health care) hybrid (government e.g. heavily regulates resource allocation in private companies), or even neither (government provides a baseline stipend, private healthcare providers can sell value-added services).

Whether and what a government should be involved in is a matter of perfectly legitimate debate. Twisting a word so far out of its original definition - preventing us from discussing why socialism is a problem if overused and arguing where it should be applied - is not legitimate.

Seriously. It's one word. If you are going to use it, you should at least do everyone who reads what you write a favor and take the five minutes necessary to understand what it means.

I'm half tempted to sticky the textbook definition to the top of this forum.

Offline errantwandering

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2012, 02:04:34 PM »
You are right, I misused the word.  That's why about 30 minutes after I said it, after I finished waking up and having my caffeine, I apologized and corrected myself.

Seriously, it's two lines down.  If you're going to quote and correct me, you could at least do me the favor of taking 30 seconds to see that I'd already realized my error and fixed it.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2012, 03:34:19 PM »
I don't think there's a single word that neatly fits the system America has now...the closest expressions I've seen are "crony capitalism" and "state capitalism."  I think "fascism" is quite a stretch...for now.  Five or ten years from now, who knows?

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2012, 07:18:07 PM »
*raises hand sheepishly*
Fiscial and Military conservitive here, Socially I don't think how we live our lives is anybody's busness except when you are a threat to the life and liberity of others. (IE: gay marrage? let em, stop spending government money on both opposing or premoting it. whereas human sacrifice under the guise of "religious freedom" should get you the electric chair)

I call the current system "Trade-fare" because the big money makers in the US are not industry or technology, it is the trade of, investment in, and dissembily of, the companies themselves, the system I believe started early 80's late 70's. Heralded by the line "greed is good"

I believe the US government should work back to Captialisim, not Lazzie Fare, the kind discribed in Wealth of Nations (a book on economics, and the study of both industry and trade during the industrial revoloution), not Atlas Shrugged (a fictional story dealing with politics)
Adam Smith actually protested in his book against mega-companies in his own era, such as the Dutch East India company.
He basicly said "greed isn't always good but regardless, it's a force in economics, and one we can harness for the betterment of mankind"

I also believe the idea of Investing in Investing in money is a serious flaw, and is holding other non-information tech back a good deal for the average person.

Offline Serephino

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »
I'm with Callie in being for a 'right sized' government, and I consider myself a liberal.  Forgive me for being angry with the GOP, but the ones in office are being complete shitheads.  This country is in a huge mess, but their main focus, and they don't even try to hide it, is making Obama a one term President.  Shouldn't they be, ya know, trying to get us back on track?  Shouldn't they be worried about jobs instead of women's reproductive organs? 

When Bush was in office things got done.  Those things weren't always good in my opinion, but the government never almost got shut down because the Democrats weren't getting their way.  The Democrats never held anything important hostage to get something they really wanted. 

I don't think the government should have its nose in our business, however, the banks were allowed to self-regulate, and look what they did...  Consumers need to be protected from huge companies that will screw people over.  The bank laws of 2005 were a long time coming.  Credit card companies were sending out statements so late that in order to pay on time people had to make a phone payment, and naturally, there was a 'convenience' fee.  Bank of America wanted to charge a fee for the privilege of having a debit card.  Banks were letting people overdraw with debit cards and performing a 'service' by charging them an overdraft fee.  My bank only sends out a notice in the mail.  Even if I check my mail every day it'll take 2-3 days to get the notice, and I can ring up hundreds of dollars in fees, and the bank doesn't care if I can't pay my rent and buy food because I thought I had money I didn't.  Banks and Wall Street will do all kinds of underhanded crap.

I believe there needs to be a balance.  I don't think compromise is a bad thing.  What I have a problem with is the Tea Party extremism.  Trickle down economics won't work the way they're trying to do it.  It hasn't been working, but these people would rather bury their heads in the sand and make crap up, point out the other side's short comings and not learn a damn thing.       

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2012, 08:29:20 PM »
I'm with Callie in being for a 'right sized' government, and I consider myself a liberal.  Forgive me for being angry with the GOP, but the ones in office are being complete shitheads.  This country is in a huge mess, but their main focus, and they don't even try to hide it, is making Obama a one term President.  Shouldn't they be, ya know, trying to get us back on track?  Shouldn't they be worried about jobs instead of women's reproductive organs? 

When Bush was in office things got done.  Those things weren't always good in my opinion, but the government never almost got shut down because the Democrats weren't getting their way.  The Democrats never held anything important hostage to get something they really wanted.       


The reason is the party wranglers are in the House now rather than the White House. With the lack of folks like Rove and Cheney directing from on high..another group is doing it. From the House Majority leaders office.. like they did when DeLay was in it.. and odds are the same way. Checking to see if you're on the 'list'.

Offline DukeJohn

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2012, 08:32:52 PM »
I'm libertarian-ish. It seems like there would be a libertarian presense on a site like this.

Offline Mr Self DestructTopic starter

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Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2012, 11:25:11 PM »
Can we stick to the topic of this thread, which is, about conservatives. I see many moderators in other threads reminding everyone that their comments need to relate to the topic, but have yet to see that here.

Offline Stattick

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2012, 11:31:55 PM »
Can we stick to the topic of this thread, which is, about conservatives. I see many moderators in other threads reminding everyone that their comments need to relate to the topic, but have yet to see that here.

So you're saying that Libertarians aren't conservatives?


What's your definition of conservative then?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:33:29 PM by Stattick »

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Any Conservatives on E?
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2012, 11:45:45 PM »
So you're saying that Libertarians aren't conservatives?

What's your definition of conservative then?

Could be...depending on which "church" you're in, so to speak.

There are some "libertarians" who are just corporatists who want to smoke weed.  There are anarchists.

There's no such thing as a perfect political chart, but I've found this one to be serviceable: