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Author Topic: Winter is Coming...  (Read 37152 times)

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Offline Random

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #400 on: March 01, 2014, 06:07:49 PM »
Leave it to the big nerd in me to find my way to this thread upon my return to E.  ::)

Just a little over a month left, can't wait!

Offline Frelance

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #401 on: April 05, 2014, 12:44:55 PM »
One more day! Can't wait, I will finally get to see another episode but I am sure I will still be addicted to the Game of thrones mod for CK2.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #402 on: April 07, 2014, 01:44:38 PM »
* jouzinka is all gaga about Oberyn Martell

Oh, dear, so many plotbunnies. ;D

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #403 on: April 07, 2014, 02:45:32 PM »
*giggles*

He is definitely plot bunny worthy. I am confused on one thing in the show. The woman with him. I could swear in the books that was his illegitimate daughter, not his lover. Another change for the tv show?

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #404 on: April 07, 2014, 02:50:13 PM »
I actually do think that in the books she was his paramour and I (probably) totally missed the daughter bit.

While I do believe Oberyn has a bastard daughter, isn't she one of the Sand Snakes and thus (by the time of this episode) locked up by Doran in Sunspear?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #405 on: April 07, 2014, 03:32:17 PM »
Hm. I thought Doran locked them up after Oberon... er.. spoiler alert!!!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
died in King's Landing

Could be wrong though. I am gonna have to reread that part on Storm of Swords lol.

Offline Frelance

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #406 on: April 07, 2014, 03:34:15 PM »
Hm. I thought Doran locked them up after Oberon... er.. spoiler alert!!!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
died in King's Landing

Could be wrong though. I am gonna have to reread that part on Storm of Swords lol.

Dam I am so tempted to open that spoiler. I am not there in the books yet lol.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #407 on: April 07, 2014, 04:00:07 PM »
Hm. I thought Doran locked them up after Oberon... er.. spoiler alert!!!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
died in King's Landing

Could be wrong though. I am gonna have to reread that part on Storm of Swords lol.
I kinda thought Doran locked them up before that to make sure they wouldn't go all wild on him.

Damn, I'm gonna have to re-read myself.

Offline consortium11

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #408 on: April 07, 2014, 04:03:53 PM »
*giggles*

He is definitely plot bunny worthy. I am confused on one thing in the show. The woman with him. I could swear in the books that was his illegitimate daughter, not his lover. Another change for the tv show?

It was his lover in the books as well.

The confusion may be because his lover (Ellaria Sand) also has the second name "Sand" (the standard name for illegitimate offspring in Dorne) as she's the bastard daughter of Harmen Uller.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #409 on: April 07, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »
Ahhh thank you!!!!

Now the only question is.. were his daughters already locked up or not.

Offline Stella

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #410 on: April 07, 2014, 05:20:03 PM »
No, from memory, I don't think that's happened yet.

Offline consortium11

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #411 on: April 08, 2014, 02:50:44 AM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
That hasn't happened yet ; they were locked up after his death for fear that they'd go out and seek revenge (several are noted warriors/poisoners)

If I recall correctly they hadn't really been given much page time at all in the books by this point having only really been mentioned in passing.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #412 on: April 08, 2014, 06:04:54 AM »
Storm of Swords, Chapter 38 - Tyrion
...it was said that he bedded men and women both, and had begotten bastard girls all over Dorne. The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.

That's all the page time they have until A Feast For Crows, when Myrcella becomes a little more important.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #413 on: April 08, 2014, 02:50:13 PM »
That is what I was remembering but I didn't want to say for absolute sure that they weren't imprisoned yet because it has been awhile since I read Storm of Swords.

Now... A new theory that came up last night between some of my coworkers and myself (we are all GoT fans).

Jon Snow... I have read the theories that he is a ...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the reason he doesn't have the white blonde hair and purple eyes is because he is not a pure blood.

I could see the above as possible. However, I submit this theory for consideration.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Jon Snow is the bastard son of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. They were in love and supposed to marry before Rhaegar left his wife and kidnapped Lyanna. All that is said is Ned found her dying and her begging him to promise her. Ned certainly goes through hell to never tell Jon who his mother is... and Jon has the black hair that all of Roberts bastards have.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 02:52:19 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline Frelance

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #414 on: April 08, 2014, 02:55:01 PM »
Now... A new theory that came up last night between some of my coworkers and myself (we are all GoT fans).

Jon Snow... I have read the theories that he is a ...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the reason he doesn't have the white blonde hair and purple eyes is because he is not a pure blood.

I could see the above as possible. However, I submit this theory for consideration.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Jon Snow is the bastard son of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. They were in love and supposed to marry before Rhaegar left his wife and kidnapped Lyanna. All that is said is Ned found her dying and her begging him to promise her. Ned certainly goes through hell to never tell Jon who his mother is... and Jon has the black hair that all of Roberts bastards have.

I heard about the first theory a while ago and enjoyed the thought of it. Truth be told I would prefer it but the second theory seems more plausible because of what you pointed out with Jon snows traits.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #415 on: April 08, 2014, 03:31:39 PM »
If memory serves me right (it didn't above :D ), Catelyn specifically mentions that Jon is more of a Stark than Robb as far as looks go as Robb inherited her red hair.

It definitely is a really interesting theory, BUT, in the bigger picture, you have to consider the WHY.

If the first theory is indeed the way to go, then Jon would be the
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
second (or third) dragonrider, because he would be Rhaegar's son, just as Daenerys (through Rhaegar's incestuous relationship with his mother) and just as Aegon through Elia Martell.

The dragon has three heads - three children by three different mothers.

Also, don't forget Daenerys' visions in the House of the Undying. She saw Rhaegar, look at her and say: "There must be one more." Master Aemon mentions that Rhaegar thought he was the Prince that was promised, but later began to believe it would be his children. Then it makes absolute sense that he would make an attempt to make "arrangements" - have Lyanna fall for him and lure her out to go after him. The timeline is also right for this. There was also a vision of a blue winter rose (Rhaegar crowned Lyanna with those in the Harrenhal tourney) on a wall.

Personally, I feel like it's a lot of hints in a book that doesn't waste time with descriptions. Meaning, there are no meaningless things mentioned in ASOIAF.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Remember how Barristan Selmy tells Danaerys that there was a kitchen rumor about her father and Joanna Lannister? Personally, I'm pretty sure that's about what happened, that's why Jaime is Jaime as a firstborn son and his name is not starting with TY- and why Cersei seems to be pretty much the combination of grown-up Daenerys and paranoid Aerys.

IMHO anyway. XD

Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #416 on: April 08, 2014, 03:36:09 PM »
That is what I was remembering but I didn't want to say for absolute sure that they weren't imprisoned yet because it has been awhile since I read Storm of Swords.

Now... A new theory that came up last night between some of my coworkers and myself (we are all GoT fans).

Jon Snow... I have read the theories that he is a ...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the reason he doesn't have the white blonde hair and purple eyes is because he is not a pure blood.

I could see the above as possible. However, I submit this theory for consideration.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Jon Snow is the bastard son of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. They were in love and supposed to marry before Rhaegar left his wife and kidnapped Lyanna. All that is said is Ned found her dying and her begging him to promise her. Ned certainly goes through hell to never tell Jon who his mother is... and Jon has the black hair that all of Roberts bastards have.

I have like the first one for the longest time because....

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Lyanna being the mother makes her dominant, not to mention the black hair and brown eyes that are already genetically dominant.

I like the concept of the second one but....

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
find it implausible because part of the whole reason for the war in the first place was Lyanna being stolen from Robert in the first place. It depends on whether Robb or Jon is/was older because if Jon is older it fits timeline wise, Robb having been conceived right before Ned went to war and Jon having needed to be conceived at least a couple of months before that for that theory to work. However, since Ned came back with the baby and it is considered his bastard, it can be considered that she though he had to have cheated on her while he was away, thus after the war had already begun.

If memory serves me right (it didn't above :D ), Catelyn specifically mentions that Jon is more of a Stark than Robb as far as looks go as Robb inherited her red hair.

It definitely is a really interesting theory, BUT, in the bigger picture, you have to consider the WHY.

If the first theory is indeed the way to go, then Jon would be the
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
second (or third) dragonrider, because he would be Rhaegar's son, just as Daenerys (through Rhaegar's incestuous relationship with his mother) and just as Aegon through Elia Martell.

The dragon has three heads - three children by three different mothers.

Also, don't forget Daenerys' visions in the House of the Undying. She saw Rhaegar, look at her and say: "There must be one more." Master Aemon mentions that Rhaegar thought he was the Prince that was promised, but later began to believe it would be his children. Then it makes absolute sense that he would make an attempt to make "arrangements" - have Lyanna fall for him and lure her out to go after him. The timeline is also right for this. There was also a vision of a blue winter rose (Rhaegar crowned Lyanna with those in the Harrenhal tourney) on a wall.

Personally, I feel like it's a lot of hints in a book that doesn't waste time with descriptions. Meaning, there are no meaningless things mentioned in ASOIAF.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Remember how Barristan Selmy tells Danaerys that there was a kitchen rumor about her father and Joanna Lannister? Personally, I'm pretty sure that's about what happened, that's why Jaime is Jaime as a firstborn son and his name is not starting with TY- and why Cersei seems to be pretty much the combination of grown-up Daenerys and paranoid Aerys.

IMHO anyway. XD

I can see evil santa making this a red herring though. >.>

Offline consortium11

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #417 on: April 08, 2014, 04:09:23 PM »
Geek time:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac
They were in love and supposed to marry before Rhaegar left his wife and kidnapped Lyanna.

Could Robert and Lyanna ever really be said to be "in love"? In fact, isn't it rather the opposite; he loved her but she was at best ambivalent to him, if not outright disliking him, largely because she didn't want a husband who even with the best intentions would never have been faithful.

Likewise, do the dates add up? I know GRRM is often somewhat vague with the exact timing of things and without going back and reading everything in detail but considering Robert's Rebellion lasted about a year and when Jon was (supposedly) born that would likely require a long, long pregnancy


Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #418 on: April 08, 2014, 04:11:44 PM »
Geek time:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Could Robert and Lyanna ever really be said to be "in love"? In fact, isn't it rather the opposite; he loved her but she was at best ambivalent to him, if not outright disliking him, largely because she didn't want a husband who even with the best intentions would never have been faithful.

Likewise, do the dates add up? I know GRRM is often somewhat vague with the exact timing of things and without going back and reading everything in detail but considering Robert's Rebellion lasted about a year and when Jon was (supposedly) born that would likely require a long, long pregnancy


I mentioned the dates in my second spoiler. Glad to know I'm not wrong in that. And yeah, I think I agree with you but that isn't heavily enough covered to say one way or the other.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
As far as Lyanna being in love with any one goes anyways.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #419 on: April 08, 2014, 06:05:59 PM »
Robb was born first. Ned got him on Cat shortly after their wedding, and then he marched to war. He came home with Jon. There's a year or less between the two.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
It's already established that dark hair trumps fair hair most of the time when it comes to Westerosi genetics. Jon Arryn and then Ned Stark established this when they were studying the marriages between Lannisters and Baratheons in that long, boring genealogy book. Typically, B/L marriages resulted in dark-haired children, with the odd fair-haired child thrown in. They never resulted in a brood of fair-haired Lannister kids with no Baratheon traits.

Lyanna Stark, being dark haired, would have the dominant genes over Rhaegar. Jon Snow looks like a Stark because his genes are dominant. I'm firmly in the R/L camp. Jon is half-Targaryen.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #420 on: April 10, 2014, 07:53:33 AM »
Robb was born first. Ned got him on Cat shortly after their wedding, and then he marched to war. He came home with Jon. There's a year or less between the two.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
It's already established that dark hair trumps fair hair most of the time when it comes to Westerosi genetics. Jon Arryn and then Ned Stark established this when they were studying the marriages between Lannisters and Baratheons in that long, boring genealogy book. Typically, B/L marriages resulted in dark-haired children, with the odd fair-haired child thrown in. They never resulted in a brood of fair-haired Lannister kids with no Baratheon traits.

Lyanna Stark, being dark haired, would have the dominant genes over Rhaegar. Jon Snow looks like a Stark because his genes are dominant. I'm firmly in the R/L camp. Jon is half-Targaryen.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Many readers believe that Jon is not the son of Eddard Stark. Instead, he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard's sister Lyanna. Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together to the Tower of Joy early in Robert's Rebellion. There, it's believed, Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna to defend his family's dynasty.

At the end of Robert's Rebellion, about one year later, Eddard and his companions find three of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy: Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne. The reasons for their presence and the ensuing fight are unknown, but defending the unborn son of the Heir Apparent would be a good reason to have been posted. The only known survivors of the fight were Eddard himself and Howland Reed. Eddard recalls his sister dying  "in a bed of blood," where he made her an unknown promise just before she died.

Also, while Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are said to have Tully features (hair color, eyes), Jon and Arya are said to be closer in appearance (which had made Sansa believe Arya was also a bastard like Jon, until her mother put Sansa's theory down). Arya is said to resemble Lyanna.

Further evidence to the truth of this theory in the eighth Eddard chapter of A Game of Thrones, in which Ned contemplates the significance of King Robert's bastards. As he muses, Ned's thoughts drift to Jon Snow, a logical segue, but also to his sister Lyanna, the promise he made her, and to Rhaegar Targaryen, implying some tacit link between the three individuals.

Daenerys Targaryen's visions in the House of the Undying include an image of Rhaegar with his newborn son Aegon, proclaiming that "there must be a third" because "the dragon has three heads". Given that, according to Jon Connington, Rhaegar's wife Elia was believed infertile after two difficult pregnancies, and that Aegon the Conqueror himself had two wives, it is logical for Rhaegar to have attempted to fulfill the prophecy by having a third child with another woman. Another of the visions Daenerys sees is the image of a blue winter rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness. Lyanna was noted by Ned to be fond of winter roses, and he associates them with her death. Jon, who could be the product of Lyanna, is currently at the Wall.

If Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it would ironically mean that Jon is not a bastard despite his life having been defined by his believed bastard status to a great extent, and that he is the heir to the Iron Throne after Aegon VI Targaryen (although this last point is rendered moot so long as he belongs to the Night's Watch).

With Eddard beheaded by King Joffrey, Howland Reed is the only living person who knows the nature of Lyanna's death and what she made her brother promise.

Source
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 08:01:46 AM by Drake Valentine »

Offline Aiden

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #421 on: April 15, 2014, 02:09:44 PM »
That is the person I can't WAIT to see who they cast.

Howland Reed.

Minor spoilers long before the actual show. Lyanna Stark and her brothers with Howland Reed long before the events in the show
I would love a flashback to the tourney in Harrenhal where Lynanne suits up like a knight and knocks few dudes on their asses (in defense of Howland)

Events that led to her to be "kidnapped" by Rhaegar.

I personally am hoping she loved the prince and just couldn't manage to be together(him married, her promise to Robert and they just went "FUCK IT" and eloped), hence the "kidnapping" and Roberts Rebellion.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #422 on: April 15, 2014, 06:00:01 PM »
I personally think that Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna at all.

When you think about it, this quote about sums the character up:
Quote
Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.

That doesn't sound to me like a man who would kidnap an unassuming maiden promised to another in the middle of the night. It doesn't sound like someone who would jeopardize the future of the entire land because of it.

On the other hand, Lyanna was reckless, stubborn, confident.

I think it was she who stole into the night and chased Rhaegar. Perhaps he used it against her, knowing she'd only need one little push to do so, after having been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, he crowned her the Queen of Beauty. To me it makes much more sense.

And why we're being told she was kidnapped?

Obviously, history is written by the victors. Rebellion against the Mad King was likely brewing already and her disappearance was a mere catalyst. Or an excuse. And in the end what family of that world would admit to have raised a woman whose actions made men die by the thousands and/or that their daughter has crawled out into the night to go after a man; in a world where a girl's virginity is her everything? Definitely not one so stuck up about their honor as the Starks.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #423 on: April 16, 2014, 04:04:20 PM »
Well... I am going to miss him.

Missed him in the books too... as a character and a plot point he was fascinating.

I actually thought it wouldn't happen for another ep or three.

I hoped we would get a clue as to who...
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 04:05:25 PM by jouzinka »

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #424 on: April 16, 2014, 04:43:10 PM »
To be honest, I'm surprised it didn't happen last season.   Apparently

Don't read this if you haven't seen the latest episode
in the books, Jaime doesn't return to King's Landing until after Joffrey is dead.

Also, did Tyrion send Shae away in the books? I can't remember.