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Author Topic: This...this is just wrong. >_>  (Read 6358 times)

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Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2010, 09:37:30 AM »
No, it sounds like he's saying we shouldn't take the death of a human life so dismissively.

For instance, 10 Innocent American Citizens get killed over there(By Insurgents, Terrorists, or just accident), it's front page news. 10 Innocent Iraqi Citizens get killed by American Troops (Accidentally or On Purpose), it doesn't even make the back page of the newspaper.

There's a dissonance in the value of human life here, isn't there?

It's just logistics.  150,000 people die every day, they can't all be front page news can they.  Deaths get reported on based on how newsworthy they are, not how inherently valuable the departed's life was as decided by a cabal of ruthless press barons.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2010, 09:39:35 AM »
The funny bit is you thinking that I'd see things the same way you do, if only I were smart enough to see through The Man's propaganda.

No, the funny bit is that most people aren't smart enough to see through it, yet you seem to still value their lives as less than our own citizens by saying "Civilians Casualties are going to happen." in such a dismissive way as if it was there fault that they died simply for living in that country.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2010, 09:42:43 AM »
It's just logistics.  150,000 people die every day, they can't all be front page news can they.  Deaths get reported on based on how newsworthy they are, not how inherently valuable the departed's life was as decided by a cabal of ruthless press barons.

Most Deaths(Usually those that don't result from freak accidents of nature) get reported because they were American Citizens. Which shows we value our own people over others.

Which means that a casualty from our soil is valued more than a casualty  from theirs. :D

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2010, 09:50:56 AM »
No, the funny bit is that most people aren't smart enough to see through it, yet you seem to still value their lives as less than our own citizens by saying "Civilians Casualties are going to happen." in such a dismissive way as if it was there fault that they died simply for living in that country.

So I'm stupid for disagreeing with you.  Right.  Could you use your superior intellect to show me how saying "civilian casualties always happen in war" means that I blame civilians for becoming casualties?  I can't figure that bit out, maybe I'm just too propagandised to join the dots.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2010, 09:55:25 AM »
So I'm stupid for disagreeing with you.  Right.  Could you use your superior intellect to show me how saying "civilian casualties always happen in war" means that I blame civilians for becoming casualties?  I can't figure that bit out, maybe I'm just too propagandised to join the dots.

Sorry, I was putting words in your mouth when I said that, and I apologize.

And no, you aren't stupid. I said that most people aren't smart enough to look between the lines, not that you are stupid. I'm glad that you can look past the propaganda.

What I was complaining about was that you say "Civilian Casualties always happen;" in a dismissive way.

Would you say the same thing if the Civilian Casualties were on our own soil?

Offline Ket

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »
Most Deaths(Usually those that don't result from freak accidents of nature) get reported because they were American Citizens. Which shows we value our own people over others.

Which means that a casualty from our soil is valued more than a casualty  from theirs. :D

Think about this from the other side. How many American deaths do you think are being covered by Afghan or Iraqi news?

Civilian deaths happen no matter who the combatants are. Just because someone can accept this fact doesn't necessarily mean they think it is right or justifiable.

Would you say the same thing if the Civilian Casualties were on our own soil?

It is a part of war. That doesn't mean one has to like it. But just because you don't like that civilians are purposefully or not victims of war doesn't mean the fact that it happens is going to go away.

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2010, 10:01:29 AM »
Sorry, I was putting words in your mouth when I said that, and I apologize.

No problem, I was being a stroppy, overly defensive bitch.  Apology accepted.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2010, 10:05:35 AM »
Think about this from the other side. How many American deaths do you think are being covered by Afghan or Iraqi news?

Civilian deaths happen no matter who the combatants are. Just because someone can accept this fact doesn't necessarily mean they think it is right or justifiable.

It is a part of war. That doesn't mean one has to like it. But just because you don't like that civilians are purposefully or not victims of war doesn't mean the fact that it happens is going to go away.

It's just seems to me, Ket, that the Majority believes that civilian deaths and the loss of human life over there is fine because of the "They are Bad, We are Good" Mentality.

Which shouldn't surprise me...our media portrays muslims and middle eastern people as terrorists almost every time they are in a movie, even before 9-11 happened...It's easier to pick out a movie where the Middle Eastern person is a terrorist/villain than to pick out one where they are not, and the stereotype that "All Muslims are Terrorists" still happens all the time. >_>

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2010, 03:48:29 PM »
The problem is you hamstring your own army by saying civilian casualties are unacceptable.  Al Qaeda   purposely attacked civilians.  Insurgents kill their own civilians for aiding western troops.  Do you honestly think you can win a war playing by rules your enemy disregards?

The insurgents want you to want to give up.  They know they can not defeat our soldiers, but they can defeat the American desire to continue the conflict.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 03:49:52 PM by MasterMischief »

Offline Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2010, 03:53:31 PM »
The problem is you hamstring your own army by saying civilian casualties are unacceptable.  Al Qaeda   purposely attacked civilians.  Insurgents kill their own civilians for aiding western troops.  Do you honestly think you can win a war playing by rules your enemy disregards?

The insurgents want you to want to give up.  They know they can not defeat our soldiers, but they can defeat the American desire to continue the conflict.

That doesn't mean a discussion regarding policies and procedures should not be had. Nor does it mean that people should not be aware of what war costs before entering into it.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2010, 03:54:28 PM »
That doesn't mean a discussion regarding policies and procedures should not be had. Nor does it mean that people should not be aware of what war costs before entering into it.

If I implied that, I certainly did not mean to.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2010, 03:57:21 PM »
I'm not saying that Casualties during war are unacceptable, or that they shouldn't happen, or won't happen.

I'm saying that we shouldn't take them so lightly. A loss of life is a terrible thing, no matter who it happens to.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2010, 04:01:13 PM »
I'm saying that we shouldn't take them so lightly. A loss of life is a terrible thing, no matter who it happens to.

I can agree with that...mostly.

Offline Hemingway

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2010, 05:09:27 PM »
Well civilians always die in wars so it sounds like you would like the west to find war itself morally unacceptable. Which would be music to the ears of tyrants and terrorists everywhere.

I agree - to absolutely nobody's great surprise - with Ernest Hemingway's sentiments. It doesn't matter how justified or how necessary a war is, that doesn't make killing people a morally sound thing to do. We are, both sides, equally convinced we're right, so how could it possibly?

You know, I thought about terrorism a few days ago, about Blackwater killing civilians in Iraq. Why aren't they being hunted down? I mean, I can't imagine Americans cheering if a coalition of Middle Eastern countries invaded the United States to track down and kill the Blackwater people responsible for shooting civilians. But isn't that essentially what's going on? I mean, doesn't that make us terrorists?

As for the rest, Wolfy made the point pretty well, I think. I'm happy to agree.

Offline Serephino

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2010, 08:40:15 PM »
I agree that the loss of human life is a horrible thing.  It's just that people were saying it happens because others were demonizing those soldiers in the video.  Those of us who were saying it happens weren't saying we didn't care, just that those soldiers aren't necessarily the horrible human beings they were made out to be.  I don't like this war period and wish it were over.

But as for the American deaths always being reported... here's a little analogy.  Let's say you're talking on the phone to a neighbor and while they're looking through their mail they get a paper cut.  Around the same time you're searching for your casserole dish to make dinner and a skillet falls out of the cabinet and lands on your foot.  Which are you going to care about, their paper cut, or your smashed foot?  And no, I'm not saying American deaths are worse, just that people tend to care more about what directly affects them.  This stupid war is way far away in a country most Americans can't even find on a map.  We wouldn't even know it was going on if it wasn't talked about on the news.  So it's a little hard to care about someone else's sore finger when my foot hurts.   

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2010, 02:14:45 PM »
I'm saying that we shouldn't take them so lightly. A loss of life is a terrible thing, no matter who it happens to.

Including Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot?

Offline Trieste

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2010, 03:04:21 PM »
Oh, for chrissake.

Locking the thread.