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Author Topic: This...this is just wrong. >_>  (Read 6352 times)

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Online Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2010, 07:02:50 PM »
What are your thoughts of the soldier taunting the crawling man, Pumpkin, saying "Come on, pick up a weapon, pick up a weapon," clearly waiting for his chance to shoot an injured man who is trying to crawl to safety?

You are sitting safe behind your computer - have you ever, in your entire life, faced mortal danger or the knowledge that your inaction may kill people? You have four resources that the people involved in this did not.

1) Safety of everyone you are responsible for
2) A broader scope of the knowledge surrounding the situation
3) A clear head, without adrenaline.
4) Time.

You lack several pieces of information that could put this video into an entirely different context, but the main one is - how often are these sorts of situations where it looks like someone actually does have a weapon and it turns out that yes, in fact, they do?

After the invasion of Normandy, American soldiers massacred entire French villages, thinking they were German outposts.

It's gut-wrenching that it happened. Horrible. Hindsight is 20/20. War is hell. Innocents pay. Millions of Iraqis are dead because of American mistakes there. Because of religious fanatics. Because of power-hungry whackjobs.

The series of events described in this video is horrible. I am not denying that. Pumpkin is not denying that. September is not denying that.

But rather than assume that every soldier who committed this atrocity is a villain, you would have your energy better directed by trying to open up dialogue about how this sort of situation could be better handled in the future, about how we can make sure we do not prosecute an unjust war again, about how we can have an active process for reviewing decisionmaking structures and improving them so that future mistakes such as these can be stopped before they happen.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:04:00 PM by Vekseid »

Offline Jude

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2010, 07:36:18 PM »
The sort of bravado that you see in these videos (the taunting of the wounded, et cetera) I think is promoted institutionally by the military.  I find it troubling that in many situations, pilots are allowed to listen to music while in the combat zone.  I realize it sets the mood for what they're doing, but it strips them of a certain surgical mindset and replaces it with something lacking in empathy.  How widespread that practice is (and how associated with this incident it could be) I have to admit I do not know.  I also can't say for certain how much I think the culture of the military contributed to this, but I'm willing to make a wager that it had something to do with it (which could easily be false, none of us really have the facts about this situation).

Mostly I agree with what Vekseid's been saying though.  In the moment, bad things will happen.  When you're twitchy, in a dangerous environment, and trying to save lives (including your own) with poor visibility and intelligence, some things are gonna go wrong.  People who don't deserve it are going to die.  These sort of overseas contingency operations (I think is what they're calling it now) are messy.  Urban Warfare in the 21st Century is a very disturbing thing that will occasionally produce situations like this even if everyone is acting in good faith.

I think the lessons that can be learned from this are as follows:
1)  War is not clean.  No matter what a politician tells you, think of this instance when they're bringing up the case for war, and be vocal in opposition if you're not willing to let events like this happen in exchange for whatever your nation stands to gain.
2)  Coverups are 10x more ominous than if they just came out with the truth right away.  They should not have tried to bury this, it does us no good, you can't stop the truth from getting out in the information age.
3)  Every soldier is not perfect, some aren't even good people.  The majority of people in the military are trained to be upstanding citizens who put their life at risk and deserve our respect, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a few bad apples.  I know people who have signed up explicitly because they wanted to shoot people, that's not an attitude typical of the fine men and women of our armed forces (I have family there) but to pretend that there aren't any dangerous, malicious, or sociopathic people in the armed forces is delusional.
4)  We are civilians, we can't possibly understand what went through those soldiers minds because the majority of us haven't even been in a life-or-death combat scenario and probably never will be.

Even if it turns out that everyone person involved in this video acted reprehensibly, that isn't a reflection on our military.  Considering we've been in Iraq this long and so few of these incidence have cropped up should tell you more than anything that our country is defended by patriots.

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2010, 08:20:01 PM »
Guys, you need to watch more closely. The pilots didn't mistakenly ID the RPG, one of the ambushers actually has an RPG. They mistake the slung cameras for weapons but there is also an RPG down there. The journalists were filming an ambush being set.

Secondly Geneva only applies to lawful (ie uniformed) combatants. Those aren't "medics" in the vehicle, they're unlawful combatants.

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2010, 08:24:06 PM »
How about verifying those weapons were actually weapons? They identified one of the cameramen as holding an RPG.

They ID the slung cameras as "weapons". The guy they ID with an RPG is holding an RPG.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2010, 08:47:09 PM »
I was in the military and I simply never saw this sort of thing.  Frankly, I am offended that people are so willing to believe our soldiers are this heartless.  Even if this video is completely accurate, I refuse to believe all of our soldiers act in this manner and that the chain of command would allow this sort of thing.

The fact that the gunner is so calm and nonchalant about the entire thing makes me extremely suspicious.  My father was in the Navy.  I was in the Army for 8 years.  In 25 years of close experience with the United States military, I never once encountered a service man who bragged about killing someone.  If you ask a vet if he ever shot someone, most of the time they will politely change the subject.  They do not want to talk about it.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2010, 08:49:27 PM »
I was in the military and I simply never saw this sort of thing.  Frankly, I am offended that people are so willing to believe our soldiers are this heartless.  Even if this video is completely accurate, I refuse to believe all of our soldiers act in this manner and that the chain of command would allow this sort of thing.

The fact that the gunner is so calm and nonchalant about the entire thing makes me extremely suspicious.  My father was in the Navy.  I was in the Army for 8 years.  In 25 years of close experience with the United States military, I never once encountered a service man who bragged about killing someone.  If you ask a vet if he ever shot someone, most of the time they will politely change the subject.  They do not want to talk about it.

Llama, I'm not saying that all Military personnel are like this, nor am I saying they are bad people. These are just individuals who were caught on Camera doing bad things and being...well, much like someone who plays CoD multiplayer, really. O_o "I think he just ran over a body." "Haha, really?" <- I mean..WTF. O_o

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2010, 08:57:12 PM »
It is so outrageous to me as to be unbelievable.  If they were setting up an ambush (it looked to me like they were just milling around) and the Army had reliable intelligence that is what they were up to (I have no idea how they could have), why not fire a few rounds into the street to scatter them.  After all, the first few shots sent everyone scrambling.  Surely, that would have been enough to scare them off until the other until had rolled through and completed their mission.

I generally do not subscribe to conspiracy theories.  It is just too difficult to get enough people to keep their mouths shut.  But I find it more likely this video has been dubbed over or even completely fabricated than for our service men to act in this manner.

In the heat of battle, when bullets are buzzing by your head, I have no doubt our brave men and women can make poor decisions.  But there is no heat here?  No threat to the gunship.  If that were an RPG about to be fired on one of our own, why did the gunner wait to come all the way around for a clearer shot?  Tell the pilot to pull back.

No, something smells funny about this whole thing.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2010, 09:00:03 PM »
It is so outrageous to me as to be unbelievable.  If they were setting up an ambush (it looked to me like they were just milling around) and the Army had reliable intelligence that is what they were up to (I have no idea how they could have), why not fire a few rounds into the street to scatter them.  After all, the first few shots sent everyone scrambling.  Surely, that would have been enough to scare them off until the other until had rolled through and completed their mission.

I generally do not subscribe to conspiracy theories.  It is just too difficult to get enough people to keep their mouths shut.  But I find it more likely this video has been dubbed over or even completely fabricated than for our service men to act in this manner.

In the heat of battle, when bullets are buzzing by your head, I have no doubt our brave men and women can make poor decisions.  But there is no heat here?  No threat to the gunship.  If that were an RPG about to be fired on one of our own, why did the gunner wait to come all the way around for a clearer shot?  Tell the pilot to pull back.

No, something smells funny about this whole thing.

According to sources, this Video isn't even supposed to be out in the public eye...because, ya know...the military wanted to cover it up, as can clearly be seen by the quotes from actual newspaper articles concerning what happened.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2010, 09:02:43 PM »
Considering the video comes from a military aircraft that only military personal should have access too, it is shocking how poorly this was covered up.  Everyone on the ground is dead.  The aircrew were probably the only English speaking witnesses.  Did the gunner turn himself in?

Sorry, I still smell fish.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2010, 09:04:03 PM »
Considering the video comes from a military aircraft that only military personal should have access too, it is shocking how poorly this was covered up.  Everyone on the ground is dead.  The aircrew were probably the only English speaking witnesses.  Did the gunner turn himself in?

Sorry, I still smell fish.

Well, it doesn't list the source that it got the video from, probably to protect them from having action taken against them.

Offline Xanatos

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2010, 09:30:06 PM »
Wolfy, do you realize that American Media slanders its own government? You can turn to any channel, newspaper, etc, and find politicians and government works under fire and many times for stupid stuff. Who cares if a politician committed adultery? Its his/her private business. Many of the things the media slanders people for is a flat out lie or its the truth being bent and twisted for their own goals. Politicians greedily use the media to slander their opponents so as to gain and edge. The presidential elections are the best example. Its nothing but a shit slinging contest, its disgusting.

So my point, believe nothing the media says. Do your own research. The Media is nothing but biased, half truth (if any truth), liars. If you don't believe me, go to the store and pick up just about any magazine and read the rumors being spread about Hollywood stars, politicians, government, etc. Watch news, read internet articles. The truth is blatantly clear. The Media has been hard at work slandering our nations military for years on end. The only war I know of in which the Media worked in tandem with the military was WWII and WWI, ever since then its been a more terrible and fearsome enemy than the enemies we have been fighting!

American's need to understand war is ugly, its nasty, and its nothing to be proud of. I am sick of people blaming our nations soldiers for killing. Killing is not murder, murder is cold blooded and for no reason. Killing is for a reason, such as defending ones nation or killing ones enemies. Soldiers kill, they rarely murder. Innocents killed in the cross fire is just a reality of life. Few American soliders want to kill but they strongly want to defend their nation and its ideals. Most people who join the military do so for that very reason (the others join for the money so they can go to college). That said, and more could be said, I have to agree with MasterMischief that anyone who believes are soldiers nothing but evil murders, is simply shameful and disgusting. How can you or anyone else side against our soldiers and your own country? I am no patriot, I don't like a lot going on in this country but America is still my country and I will be damned if I side against it and those brave soldiers who sacrifice years of their lives or their very life to help better our nation.

Wolfy I honestly am not trying to attack or offend you but your attitude is clearly ignorant and misguided. Please for the love of your own nation, learn about this kind of stuff please before you become a hater. Our own freaking Media is bad enough, poisoning the minds of Americans against the country which feeds them, clothes them, provides them with their numerous amenities. Damn man, we live like Kings! No other nation(s) can claim to live like we do, not even Europe (they are close yes)! We have it MADE. Why do you bite the hand which feeds you and protects you?

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2010, 09:33:04 PM »
Wolfy, do you realize that American Media slanders its own government? You can turn to any channel, newspaper, etc, and find politicians and government works under fire and many times for stupid stuff. Who cares if a politician committed adultery? Its his/her private business. Many of the things the media slanders people for is a flat out lie or its the truth being bent and twisted for their own goals. Politicians greedily use the media to slander their opponents so as to gain and edge. The presidential elections are the best example. Its nothing but a shit slinging contest, its disgusting.

So my point, believe nothing the media says. Do your own research. The Media is nothing but biased, half truth (if any truth), liars. If you don't believe me, go to the store and pick up just about any magazine and read the rumors being spread about Hollywood stars, politicians, government, etc. Watch news, read internet articles. The truth is blatantly clear. The Media has been hard at work slandering our nations military for years on end. The only war I know of in which the Media worked in tandem with the military was WWII and WWI, ever since then its been a more terrible and fearsome enemy than the enemies we have been fighting!

American's need to understand war is ugly, its nasty, and its nothing to be proud of. I am sick of people blaming our nations soldiers for killing. Killing is not murder, murder is cold blooded and for no reason. Killing is for a reason, such as defending ones nation or killing ones enemies. Soldiers kill, they rarely murder. Innocents killed in the cross fire is just a reality of life. Few American soliders want to kill but they strongly want to defend their nation and its ideals. Most people who join the military do so for that very reason (the others join for the money so they can go to college). That said, and more could be said, I have to agree with MasterMischief that anyone who believes are soldiers nothing but evil murders, is simply shameful and disgusting. How can you or anyone else side against our soldiers and your own country? I am no patriot, I don't like a lot going on in this country but America is still my country and I will be damned if I side against it and those brave soldiers who sacrifice years of their lives or their very life to help better our nation.

Wolfy I honestly am not trying to attack or offend you but your attitude is clearly ignorant and misguided. Please for the love of your own nation, learn about this kind of stuff please before you become a hater. Our own freaking Media is bad enough, poisoning the minds of Americans against the country which feeds them, clothes them, provides them with their numerous amenities. Damn man, we live like Kings! No other nation(s) can claim to live like we do, not even Europe (they are close yes)! We have it MADE. Why do you bite the hand which feeds you and protects you?

Aaaaaannnddd...the Media isn't covering this. At all. newspapers have covered it, and provide the story that the military tells them, nothing more, nothing less...No media form that I know off besides who posted this video is covering this story at all.

Offline Xanatos

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2010, 09:36:27 PM »
And missed my point completely. Forget I said anything, obviously not willing to listen to what I had to say.

Online Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2010, 09:36:44 PM »
2)  Coverups are 10x more ominous than if they just came out with the truth right away.  They should not have tried to bury this, it does us no good, you can't stop the truth from getting out in the information age.

And let the media cry for blood, resulting in forcing every individual soldier to consider the political ramifications of every action they make in a war zone?

People make mistakes. Sometimes, those mistakes are going to cost lives.

You can review the process, improve the process, cull out the worst of the worst - but mistakes are still going to happen. In war, someone's brother is going to die for no good reason. Someone's father. Someone's son.

Sister. Daughter. Mother. Cousin. Nephew. Niece.

This isn't "Just following orders and obeyed an unethical order." This is "Following (hopefully) good procedure and making mistakes." The former is certainly prosecutable. The latter should only be when expectations can reasonably be set otherwise.

If the blame lies with anyone, it's with those who engineered the war.

Offline Jude

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2010, 09:37:04 PM »
It's most likely that what appears to be going on in this video is what happened, but you're right, this could be out of context or otherwise falsified.

Still, believing that 100% of the military is righteous and that there are no bad apples flies in the face of reality.  Abu Graib and numerous other smaller incidents show that there are in fact some people in our military who are malicious and break protocol in ways which give the United States a bad name unfairly.  They are the extreme minority, the number of incidents that can actually be pointed to is a perfect testament to that.

No group of people, no matter how righteous their cause or benevolent their intent, is going to be comprised entirely of good people.  Even if we went around purposely collecting the most morally upstanding people in order to form our military, there would still be problems with our criteria of measuring that or people who change once they're in the service.

I understand what you're getting at Master, you've served in the military and seen a great deal of sacrifice and bravery, and what you've observed is definitely the trend.  On the whole our servicemen are impeccable human beings, I'm not disputing that, but claiming absolute perfection simply isn't logical.  You've seen a snapshot of an organization, not looked into the hearts of each and every member and sought out all of the dark corners, then found that there were no rats.

And let the media cry for blood, resulting in forcing every individual soldier to consider the political ramifications of every action they make in a war zone?

People make mistakes. Sometimes, those mistakes are going to cost lives.

You can review the process, improve the process, cull out the worst of the worst - but mistakes are still going to happen. In war, someone's brother is going to die for no good reason. Someone's father. Someone's son.

Sister. Daughter. Mother. Cousin. Nephew. Niece.

This isn't "Just following orders and obeyed an unethical order." This is "Following (hopefully) good procedure and making mistakes." The former is certainly prosecutable. The latter should only be when expectations can reasonably be set otherwise.

If the blame lies with anyone, it's with those who engineered the war.
You make a good point, but I wasn't advocating for total transparency, just when it's quite clear that something questionable has occurred, the public should be informed.  Citizens have a right to know what's being done in their name around the world.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:40:28 PM by Jude »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2010, 09:49:38 PM »
First off, armchair tacticians get the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. There are several questions that were not covered about the crew. How long into their patrol was this incident? How many hours down time they were given? And yes, I can see where the two journalists WERE not carrying the weapons but it's not clear.

There were DEFINITELY AK-47s in that group of men and a rpg.

Forcing the soldiers to second guess themselves is a surefire way to cause more fatalities. Was this handled poorly ? Definitely. Was it a cover up? Not sure since I am only seeing the video and not the outcome of the official investiagtion (which can and DOES take years.. had to give statements for 2 aircraft mishaps in my 15 years in the navy)

Let me point out something about letting the folks who aren't int he chain of command set the Rules of Engagement to ensure 100% civilian safety. The guards at the embassy barracks in Beruit weren't allowed to have ammo on them when the suicide bombers took out the building.

I am curious as to how much of this 'cover up' is Rueters taking the military to task over their people and how much of it is fact.

 

Offline Serephino

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2010, 09:52:29 PM »
What gets me is that they're showing this at all.  I mean, you don't publicly show people being killed!

I'm talking to an ex Marine friend on yim and I showed this to him.  His reply.... *bangs head on desk* 

He was over there back in the early 90's when what's his face invaded Kuwait I think it was.  He's told me stories.  Sadly, in a war things like this happen.  All that talk you guys are criticizing is called compartmentalizing.  They teach themselves to see the enemy as less than human so that they can kill them without the guilt eating them away inside.  They thought these guys were insurgents.  They even said in the audio that they saw weapons.  Some of them don't succeed and end up abusing drugs and alcohol.  Whoever said war is hell made the understatement of the century. 

These aren't the first innocents killed in this shit, and won't be the last.  I'm mot saying it's ok, but what can we do?  I hate this shit and want it to end, but what power do I have?

My friend thinks that whoever leaked this video if it's real is a complete and utter moron.  He and the men he served with would have never left any evidence.  Things like this are covered up to avoid outrages like this.  This incident was a mistake and most likely dealt with internally.  Of course there are other bad things that aren't accidents, but that's what happens when you have thousands of men thousands of miles away from home under constant stress and with little supervision.  The solution is to be a little more careful about starting wars.       

Offline Ket

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2010, 10:03:04 PM »
I had originally intended on refraining from posting in this thread. However, I feel I must point some things out.


and they shot at medical personnel, which, shooting medical personnel is against the Geneva convention, something we're supposed to be upholding...

There is no indication that they are medical personnel. They are simply a van of people coming to collect bodies.

And what about the medical van? -snip- They were trying to move the injured/dead bodies out of the street to get them medical attention.

Again, there was no indication that the van was some sort of ambulance or was carrying medical personnel.

Well, it doesn't list the source that it got the video from, probably to protect them from having action taken against them.

It says in the video (2:16) that a Freedom of Information Act request was filed by Reuters.

Online Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2010, 10:15:39 PM »
The FOIA request was denied, though. Though this might have been prepared and thus seen by a few too many people?

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2010, 10:16:25 PM »
Aaaaaannnddd...the Media isn't covering this. At all. newspapers have covered it, and provide the story that the military tells them, nothing more, nothing less...No media form that I know off besides who posted this video is covering this story at all.

So my question  would be, how do you know this is coming from a credible source?  How do you know whomever obtained this video got it from a reliable source? How do you know that it hasn't been tampered with or manipulated in some way?  That's the problem with things such as this.  You are never really certain where this information is coming from, so then how can you believe that everything you are seeing is the truth?  Propaganda fuels wars, fuels debates, it's a fact. 

It's not hard to splice videos together, to grab shots from here and there and manipulate them in a way that looks authentic. Look at all of the home made videos on youtube for example.  I'm not saying that this is what this is, but the possibility is there. 


Offline Jude

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2010, 10:19:37 PM »
He was over there back in the early 90's when what's his face invaded Kuwait I think it was.  He's told me stories.  Sadly, in a war things like this happen.  All that talk you guys are criticizing is called compartmentalizing.  They teach themselves to see the enemy as less than human so that they can kill them without the guilt eating them away inside.  They thought these guys were insurgents.  They even said in the audio that they saw weapons.  Some of them don't succeed and end up abusing drugs and alcohol.  Whoever said war is hell made the understatement of the century.
What you're describing is at best propaganda and at worst brainwashing.  You make it sound like it's a choice, either they dehumanize the people they kill and become desensitized to what they do or they become addicts.  That strikes me as a real lack of confidence in our soldiers; I think they can wrestle with the gravity of what they've needed to do without being delusional about it or becoming mentally ill.
My friend thinks that whoever leaked this video if it's real is a complete and utter moron.  He and the men he served with would have never left any evidence.  Things like this are covered up to avoid outrages like this.  This incident was a mistake and most likely dealt with internally.  Of course there are other bad things that aren't accidents, but that's what happens when you have thousands of men thousands of miles away from home under constant stress and with little supervision.  The solution is to be a little more careful about starting wars.
And how do you propose people realize that we need to be more careful about starting wars if we censor all of the information about how bad wars are?  Stuff like this is a shock to people's systems rightfully so, it makes them realize that the stuff we hear about isn't just a hole in budget.  This is the ugly side, this is the human toll, and if you censor these images, it lets the Government come up with the narrative of what's happened and what's going to happen.

Suppression, synthesis, and manufacture of information by the Government is what got us in Iraq to begin with.  How about we treat the American people like adults and let them see where their money is going?  I think I have a pretty fundamental right to know what my Government is doing so that I know whether or not to support it.  Take that way, and how is a Democratic society supposed to work?

Offline Ket

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2010, 10:49:57 PM »
The FOIA request was denied, though. Though this might have been prepared and thus seen by a few too many people?

Out of curiosity, is there an article somewhere that states the request was denied?  There is no information in the video stating that it was or wasn't, only that one was filed and the video had yet to be seen, followed by a website plug and them stating that they have a good record of keeping confidentiality.

Online Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2010, 11:02:55 PM »
What you're describing is at best propaganda and at worst brainwashing.  You make it sound like it's a choice, either they dehumanize the people they kill and become desensitized to what they do or they become addicts.  That strikes me as a real lack of confidence in our soldiers; I think they can wrestle with the gravity of what they've needed to do without being delusional about it or becoming mentally ill.

Several centuries of research proves you flatly, completely and utterly wrong here.

Healthy humans are not disposed towards killing people. If you had an entire army that could kill without dehumanizing, you by definition have an army of sociopaths.

Quote
And how do you propose people realize that we need to be more careful about starting wars if we censor all of the information about how bad wars are?  Stuff like this is a shock to people's systems rightfully so, it makes them realize that the stuff we hear about isn't just a hole in budget.  This is the ugly side, this is the human toll, and if you censor these images, it lets the Government come up with the narrative of what's happened and what's going to happen.

Suppression, synthesis, and manufacture of information by the Government is what got us in Iraq to begin with.  How about we treat the American people like adults and let them see where their money is going?  I think I have a pretty fundamental right to know what my Government is doing so that I know whether or not to support it.  Take that way, and how is a Democratic society supposed to work?

That's not going to happen on any reasonable terms with a sensationalist media driven by ratings and beholden to advertisers.

The only silver lining there is that the current media apparatus is clearly not going to be the media apparatus of the next generation.

Out of curiosity, is there an article somewhere that states the request was denied?  There is no information in the video stating that it was or wasn't, only that one was filed and the video had yet to be seen, followed by a website plug and them stating that they have a good record of keeping confidentiality.

It's stated on http://collateralmurder.com/

Offline Ket

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2010, 11:08:44 PM »
Thank you Veks.

Offline Jude

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2010, 11:14:03 PM »
There's a difference between emphasizing the mechanistic aspects of combat during training and trying to teach people how to fight without thinking of their opponent's humanity and teaching them to dehumanize them.  People often view human obstacles day to day not as humans but as objects, when debating, when arguing, so on and so forth.  I'd consider specific training and attempts to put people in a place where they are trained to dehumanize (instead of trained not to humanize by focusing on other things) dangerous.

But I also have to concede I don't know nearly enough about this subject to really be making such judgments.  I've always thought it really messed up that they let them listen to music while driving a tank through the streets of Iraq during the initial invasion, but I am no expert, and am largely uneducated here.