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Author Topic: This...this is just wrong. >_>  (Read 6355 times)

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Offline WolfyTopic starter

This...this is just wrong. >_>
« on: April 05, 2010, 10:44:00 AM »
Collateral Murder

...I mean..seriously wrong.

http://collateralmurder.com/en/resources.html <- new information.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 09:55:00 AM by Wolfy »

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 10:48:55 AM »
The Video: American soldiers killed a bunch of unarmed civilians including two Reuters reporters as well as injuring a couple of children.

The military tried to cover this up by saying they were Iraqi Insurgents, when they were just civilians.

Offline September

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 03:20:34 PM »
(Fair disclosure: my boyfriend is currently serving in Afghanistan.)

I watched all the footage and didn't think there was anything wrong with it.  The unarmed civilians are palling around with a group of heavily armed insurgents as they set up an ambush on a street corner.  The helicopter pilots fire a short burst into the ambush site.  A short while later a vehicle arrives on the scene and starts evacuating the wounded, and the pilots shoot it.

I can't believe this is at all controversial.  I don't know what the makers of this film think the pilots should have done.  Landed, got out, and made some arrests maybe.

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 04:46:27 PM »
How about verifying those weapons were actually weapons? They identified one of the cameramen as holding an RPG.

Online Silk

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 04:54:02 PM »
How about verifying those weapons were actually weapons? They identified one of the cameramen as holding an RPG.

Yeah because flying in closer for a better look when someone is suspected of having a weapon that can blow you out of the sky is the best idea

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 05:02:41 PM »
There are plenty of things wrong with it. Rather clearly, there is no aggression at all, simply men walking down the streets. The soldiers shot at a perceived threat, not an actual one. Second, they shot someone already injured and out of commission again just to make sure he was dead, and they shot at medical personnel, which, shooting medical personnel is against the Geneva convention, something we're supposed to be upholding...then they laugh about driving over a body and managing to get one of the medical personnel "Through the windshield", as if it's some game. >_> They also managed to wound two children. Granted, they probably didn't know children were down there, and the reason why children would be in the same place as two journalists with "AK-47" Cameras and supposed 'insurgents', I don't know. They at least decide to take the children to get medical care, but are ordered to take give them to the Iraqi police and take them to an Iraqi hospital rather than letting them be treated at the American one..which confuses me as to why treating them at the American hospital, which is where they were going to be brought to would be a problem...the kids are already injured.

And now that I watch the video again, I see something worse. O_o The children were in the van that they shot up. Of course, I doubt the pilot could see them from the air, granted, but still...the van is quite clearly a medical van rather than some kind of terrorist scavenger...thing, so why did they shoot it?

Lastly, and I think perhaps one of the worst things about this video, is that the government/military tried to cover it up and keep their mistake(Killing at least two or more known innocents) a secret, which can clearly be seen by the quotes said video gives from Actual Military personnel and higher-ups to newspapers. >_>

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 05:03:33 PM »
Yeah because flying in closer for a better look when someone is suspected of having a weapon that can blow you out of the sky is the best idea

No, it's not the best Idea..the best Idea is to keep a gun trained on him, but not fire, and only fire if he shows aggression, rather than just firing 'on a hunch'.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 05:08:27 PM »
This video seems suspicious to me.  I was in the Army and I did not know anyone who would commit such an atrocity.  I have a hard time believing a gunship gunner would so easily mistake a camera for an RPG.  Maybe I am naïve.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »
This video seems suspicious to me.  I was in the Army and I did not know anyone who would commit such an atrocity.  I have a hard time believing a gunship gunner would so easily mistake a camera for an RPG.  Maybe I am naïve.

Well Llama, to be fair, this mistake has to be attributed to the individual rather than make a grand sweep of the entire military...but still.

I'm betting that the people who did this only got maybe a slap on the wrists and an eye-exam, though. >_>

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 05:12:54 PM »
I never said get closer. But if you want to talk weapons ranges, how does the range of a gunships cannon measure up to ground based small arms? Were they already in range of that RPG?

According to wikipedia, the M230 chain gun the Apache mounts has
Effective range    1,500 m (1,640 yd)
Maximum range    4,500 m (4,920 yd)

The RPG might be effective against a helicopter that is taking off, landing or hovering. Against one flying at any kind of speed, I wouldn't think the odds were great of a hit. Without knowing just what kind of RPG was supposed to have been seen, I can't tell the range, but the RPG-7 is the most common one. That has a max range of under 1000 meters. And to get a hit on a target the size of a chopper, moving, a kilometer away ... you'd have to be a good shot.

They had the people on the ground under observation. They thought the cameras the reporters had were weapons. Maybe taking a little longer to observe, and verify that was the case, rather than just killing them all might have been an idea? They had the ability to stay out of the maximum range of ground based fire, whilst still being in an effective range of their own weaponry.

Offline Vekseid

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 05:13:46 PM »
How about verifying those weapons were actually weapons? They identified one of the cameramen as holding an RPG.

"How" would be the appropriate question. I would not be surprised if going up the chain of command involved in this would not find a single unreasonable decision, given the information and timing constraints available to each individual. "War is hell" - good people, who were doing nothing but trying to live their lives and often even make the world a better place - die.

Organizations murder people, not through the willful decision of any one person, but

(Fair disclosure: my boyfriend is currently serving in Afghanistan.)

I watched all the footage and didn't think there was anything wrong with it.  The unarmed civilians are palling around with a group of heavily armed insurgents as they set up an ambush on a street corner.  The helicopter pilots fire a short burst into the ambush site.  A short while later a vehicle arrives on the scene and starts evacuating the wounded, and the pilots shoot it.

I can't believe this is at all controversial.  I don't know what the makers of this film think the pilots should have done.  Landed, got out, and made some arrests maybe.

It can be a good thing, in the long run, if it can be looked at from the perspective of "How can we reduce the chances of this happening in the future?"

I think, in general, American society needs to take a look at how to handle the sociopathy inherent in its bureaucracies.

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 05:32:19 PM »
How about sending in a UAV or one of these other military drones we hear about? No human life at risk there in taking a closer look. If it takes fire, then you have the people still under observation and weapons, and can respond effectively immediately. If on the other hand you confirm no weapons, then the gunships are free to move elsewhere.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 05:46:19 PM »
Another interesting thing in the video is of the soldier who sees the man trying to crawl to Safety...and taunts him, saying "Go on, pick up a weapon, all you need to do is pick up a weapon." Before the other Apache helicopter kills him anyway.

...I mean, really...that's just disgusting. >_>

Offline Schrödinger

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 05:51:17 PM »
How about sending in a UAV or one of these other military drones we hear about? No human life at risk there in taking a closer look. If it takes fire, then you have the people still under observation and weapons, and can respond effectively immediately. If on the other hand you confirm no weapons, then the gunships are free to move elsewhere.

Drones are awesome. More civilian deaths, more ways to stave off responsibility.

This is also about the time where I had to stop the video. I knew what'd happen. Looked up SomethingAwful's active Wikileak thread and the discussion of the 40-minute footage that's been leaked, as well as their cover thread on a right-wing forum featuring gems as 'good kills' and FreeRepublic forumgoers celebrating every single life lost there, including the civilians.

I need to lie down  :-(

EDIT: Boy howdy am I curious how the hell this is going to be spinned. This is a fucking war crime. You do not shoot unarmed people taking away wounded. Geneva conventions. Then again, the Iraq war wasn't a sanctioned one through the Senate either.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 05:54:04 PM by Schrödinger »

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 06:02:23 PM »
Drones are awesome. More civilian deaths, more ways to stave off responsibility.

This is also about the time where I had to stop the video. I knew what'd happen. Looked up SomethingAwful's active Wikileak thread and the discussion of the 40-minute footage that's been leaked, as well as their cover thread on a right-wing forum featuring gems as 'good kills' and FreeRepublic forumgoers celebrating every single life lost there, including the civilians.

I need to lie down  :-(

EDIT: Boy howdy am I curious how the hell this is going to be spinned. This is a fucking war crime. You do not shoot unarmed people taking away wounded. Geneva conventions. Then again, the Iraq war wasn't a sanctioned one through the Senate either.

That's the bad thing. It's all being covered up, and most likely the people that committed the act aren't going to have a damn thing done to them...hell, they'll probably be congratulated on doing a "Good Job".

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 06:05:21 PM »
Assumptions are amazing things.

Offline Schrödinger

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 06:12:37 PM »
Assumptions are amazing things.

There were no assumptions. We see unarmed people picking up wounded. We hear the gunman actually hoping for the guy to get a weapon.

Hell, while I can understand the need to decide immediately in a war zone, actually celebrating children dying and blaming them to be in that situation ("Shouldn't have taken kids there," what the Christ? These people live here, it's not like that they could hear the guncraft, or decide to move out of their own city).

Things even started with a camera being mistaken for an RPG tube.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 06:13:54 PM by Schrödinger »

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 06:13:52 PM »
I'm not talking about Predators firing air to ground missiles. There are, I believe, smaller UAVs available to ground forces for reconnaissance. Something like these

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-151.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app2/q-11.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/wasp.html

Man portable flying cameras.

Offline Schrödinger

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 06:17:00 PM »
I'm not talking about Predators firing air to ground missiles. There are, I believe, smaller UAVs available to ground forces for reconnaissance. Something like these

Fair enough. UAV's still have their obvious downsides, they're not the military holy grail, is all I was saying with my link.

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Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 06:24:04 PM »
Of course they do. There's no such thing as a perfect solution, and people, especially in stressful situations, can and do make mistakes. It's happened before, it will happen again. Avoiding the repetition of those mistakes, and other needless deaths, would be the best that could come out of an incident like this.

Technology isn't a magic wand, but maybe it could have made the difference here.

If there were no ground troops in the area, no imminent danger of ground attack, then perhaps more time could have been taken before triggers were pulled.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 06:36:34 PM »
The problem here is that assumptions are being made about the consequences those soldiers received due to their actions.  There is no evidence to support there were reprimanded or not reprimanded.  No evidence to suggest that those who gave them the freedom to engage faced consequences or not.  People are simply assuming that they were not reprimanded and that they were even encouraged to do so by their peers.  An amazing thing to demand truth but also make accusations and statements without any truth behind them.  Obviously this incident is horrible, but this is an unfortunate reality of war inside a large city.  This is the unfortunate consequence of taking a massive military machine, focusing it on a civilian population with the intention of police keeping.  The soldiers can only be held responsible for so long before we have to accept that the policy might be to blame.

As for covering up the incident, I can’t say I blame them.  The government doesn’t want its soldiers paraded around in front of the media.  Doesn’t want their families demonized for their actions because a bad judgment call was made on the field.  They don’t want their own soldiers wondering if they will face similar treatment, to hesitate at the trigger and get people killed through inaction.  The ability to kill sits atop the knowledge of support by peers and superiors.  Take that away from the soldier and we have well armed men and women who sit and think about every consequence before pulling the trigger.  That is not effective when they have the span of milliseconds to live or die, for their squad mates to live or die.  In those situations they have to take what they can see and work with the best of their knowledge.  Those are not just facts of war but facts for anyone that works in snap decision environments like that with lives resting on those decisions.

In regard to the relaxed nature of the people, that is inconsequential.  Many of the men and women I’ve spoken to in the military will talk about watching people setup ambush points, watching them set up IEDs or setting up bombs to be used against civilians and troops.  I have heard this from Iraqi war veterans to those in Vietnam and Korea.  They can’t do anything due to the rules of engagement, the enemy knows that.  So under full view they simply do that.  When a guerilla force can be identified, their intentions inferred to the best of a field personnel’s ability and a clearance to fire is given there won’t be much hesitation to enforce the decision.  That operator knows that if he makes the wrong decision not to fire and eliminate the threat, his people may be paying for his mistake.

Also, the bravado they gave is to be expected.  When people are faced with undeniable actions that are horrendous, they attempt to excuse the situation.  Blame the victim is the typical recourse.  That does not mean they were laughing and joking back at base for hurting children.  If someone hits a child with a car there tends to be a response of “what were they doing in the street?”  That same person may go home and cry for hours for hurting a child.  They may not be able to touch the steering wheel of a car for years.  Once more, assuming something about the soldiers from that video is poor judgment.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 06:41:37 PM »
What are your thoughts of the soldier taunting the crawling man, Pumpkin, saying "Come on, pick up a weapon, pick up a weapon," clearly waiting for his chance to shoot an injured man who is trying to crawl to safety?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 06:46:09 PM »
Bravado...blood pumping...heat of the moment...anticipation of danger.  An injured man with a gun is still a threat as any police officer will testify. 

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 06:50:46 PM »
Bravado...blood pumping...heat of the moment...anticipation of danger.  An injured man with a gun is still a threat as any police officer will testify.

Well yes, but he's certainly not a threat to a soldier well away in the air in an armored Apache Helicopter.

And what about the medical van? Clearly they were carrying weapons, nor were they trying to pick them up. They were trying to move the injured/dead bodies out of the street to get them medical attention. Not to mention the children that could be seen, on the video, in the front seat of the van (Though I can understand if the pilot/gunner couldn't tell that they were children, but still.)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: This...this is just wrong. >_>
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2010, 07:01:06 PM »
I think this is a classic situation of not understanding the workings of the mind in stressful situations.  The brain, when thinking it is in danger, does not dissect information so well.  Typically things are filtered into threats and non-threats and those decisions are made with little context.  The medical van does not surprise me considering paramedics need to call into police situations before moving in to clear out wounded.  Paramedics don’t just go running into a gunfight to pull people out like in the movies.  Those doing the fighting need to be alerted to their presence and give the signal that they are in a position to stop firing and have their weapons unengaged.