Regarding that Paula White prayer video...

[Beorning]

If you guys don't mind, I have some more general questions regarding that Paula White prayer video I posted in the Trump thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8hPhDfv18

(reposting for those who missed it)

From the religious point of view, what exactly is happening in that video? Does she honestly feel "the angels being sent" and hear God speaking for Trump's success? Or does she know she's talking nonsense and does all that deliberately to manipulate people who pray along with her? Or is it some sort of trance state, when she's not even in control of what she's saying?

I'm honestly wondering about this type of prayer, because we don't have this kind of thing happening over here, aside from some minority Pentecostal groups...

[Oniya]

Yeah, the idea is that her sect believes that God sends angels to engage in spiritual warfare in areas, to force the sinners in those areas to repent and accept Jesus if they want to survive.

It's kind of like a supernatural version of the 'great white savior' trope, and racist as hell - note exactly where she was summoning the angels from.

[Laughing Hyena]

The usual chanting and mantra to try and challenge your faith in the almighty by proving yourself loyal to him. The requirements might be different but they take advantage of people all the same. As insane and exploitive as Robert Tilton, I'd wager. Ya know that infamous televangelist? I bet theres a good comparison with you video and this one from LWT. All this shit sounds horribly familiar to me and this plays on those like my grandmother.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

[Humble Scribe]

The angels from Africa and South America seem to have got stuck in immigration.

I did like this remix of her craziness. Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkrnpX8ZsOQ&feature=emb_logo

[Oniya]

The angels from Africa and South America seem to have got stuck in immigration.

I did like this remix of her craziness. Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkrnpX8ZsOQ&feature=emb_logo

Actually, the jokes on Twitter are that the angels from Africa and South America showed up in droves, and voted for Biden.  (That is, the POC/Latinx demographics.)

There's also one that puts a squeaky-hammer in her hand and has her whacking Trump.

[Hrairoo]

I'm by no means an expert but a moderate student on the subject, but it does seem like she's trying to induce a trance-like state in the congregation. Induction of the "spirit" is an effect that can be manufactured through this guided hypnosis. It can leave a congregation feeling relieved, at peace, and rejuvenated after a sermon when they are led through this process in this way. Being caught up in the spirit, talking in tongues, etc. is often regarded as a sign that the person is currently under the power and influence of God.

It's just a guess. My first encounter with her at all is from this video getting passed around.

[WinterPoet]

I saw the video of her with the slim shady music put on on facebook earlier and was flabbergasted. Figured it had to be edited somewhat, but nope - find the original one and wow. Repetition to the extreme I guess means God will really listen? 

[Formless]

Its times like these when I miss Jon Stewart.

He'd have a field day. xD

[clonkertink]

Every time I hear someone say they miss Jon Stewart, I think back to this bit with Colbert (Timestamp 9:55).

Jon Stewart was great, but the dude has truly earned his retirement. He has plenty of worthy successors, an I think it would be a disservice to Jon to confine his influence to the time he spent in front of the camera.

https://youtu.be/X-NiSh28w3E?t=595

[Beorning]

Okay, so here are some thoughts from me:

1. I admit I did wonder about the whole "Angels are coming from Africa!" bit. I was like "Wait, isn't Trump against immigration?"... :) You say that this woman thinks there angels in Africa, because they are busy converting the "pagans"? Ugh... 

2. Thank you for the remixed video. It seems I wasn't the only one who thought she was chanting to a song she could hear on her head...

3. What I'm wondering is: is she being genuine in this video? Does she really believe that praying like that achieves something - or is her just executing theatrics while thinking "Oh dear, I need to keep shouting for 10 minutes more..."?

4. Assuming she's serious, here's a question: as much as insane this all seems, isn't chanting, trances etc. an established part of various religious practices? So, maybe we are all too quick to dismiss this as "crazy". I mean, we don't call shamans who drum and chant themselves into exhaustion to induce altered consciousness crazy...

[Formless]

Every time I hear someone say they miss Jon Stewart, I think back to this bit with Colbert (Timestamp 9:55).

Jon Stewart was great, but the dude has truly earned his retirement. He has plenty of worthy successors, an I think it would be a disservice to Jon to confine his influence to the time he spent in front of the camera.

https://youtu.be/X-NiSh28w3E?t=595

Its not a disservice. He's as unique as any of his successors. But his uniqueness was simply ... the best.

[Blythe]

Paula White is a proponent of the insanely fucked up 'Prosperity Gospel.' Which boils down to the wealthy being able to say "I'm rich because I'm strong in my faith, and if you're poor and struggling, it means you're a sinner who deserves your struggle."

Worth noting that quite a few conservative Christians even think she's a charlatan. I find that it takes a lot to get conservative evangelist Christians to turn on each other, and it's worth nothing that White even managed to make a Southern Baptist ethicist blanch at how she behaves, and Southern Baptists tend to be real big on evangelizing loudly.

My 'favorite' shitty thing she does is falsely claiming from time to time to have a doctorate. She has no such thing. Though it establishes that it's in her nature to lie to get something she wants.

I highly doubt she believes in what she's doing. Leaders among adherents of the prosperity gospel directly financially profit from putting on a good religious show and propping up the very publicly wealthy as victors. 

[Hrairoo]

Okay, so here are some thoughts from me:


3. What I'm wondering is: is she being genuine in this video? Does she really believe that praying like that achieves something - or is her just executing theatrics while thinking "Oh dear, I need to keep shouting for 10 minutes more..."?

There is such a thing as a devout fraud, wherein 1. The fraudster buys into their own lies or 2. They don't actually hear or speak for God but still believe they are doing God's work or helping people.

I'd say the difference between a shaman who gets religious edification out of chanting, tongues, and drums, versus a televangelist is what they get out of it and what their motivations are. Tv preachers are called out all the time not because their antics are loopy or obnoxious but because they turn out to be phony or hypocrites, and thus, these theatrics come across as manipulative and harmful. Especially if they require monetary donations or convince people to stop taking prescription medications because of faith healing.

For this specific preacher... This isn't just some election or some guy she's championing in the name of God. The last President was responsible for a lot of human rights violations and lost lives. I don't consider her attempt to rouse a zealous lather in favor of this man to be akin or equal to a genuine, harmless spiritual experience. This has to be looked at in the context of this election too and what she's actually praying for and advocating. And we can legitimately question why.

[Haibane]

I highly doubt she believes in what she's doing. Leaders among adherents of the prosperity gospel directly financially profit from putting on a good religious show and propping up the very publicly wealthy as victors. 

Organized religion is a construct whereby the greedy and powerful have control over the masses. Its been like that since ... ohh, Moses' time.

[Blythe]

Organized religion is a construct whereby the greedy and powerful have control over the masses. Its been like that since ... ohh, Moses' time.

I'm a pessimist from time to time about religion as well, but I generally evaluate religions on an individual basis rather than make sweeping statements about them all at once. I've had a few decent enough experiences with religion--despite being an atheist--where I'm unwilling to condemn the entire concept of organized religion. My focus is condemning the prosperity gospel specifically, since that's the dogma of the woman OP is asking about.

[Fox Lokison]

I'm by no means an expert but a moderate student on the subject, but it does seem like she's trying to induce a trance-like state in the congregation. Induction of the "spirit" is an effect that can be manufactured through this guided hypnosis. It can leave a congregation feeling relieved, at peace, and rejuvenated after a sermon when they are led through this process in this way. Being caught up in the spirit, talking in tongues, etc. is often regarded as a sign that the person is currently under the power and influence of God.

It's just a guess. My first encounter with her at all is from this video getting passed around.

I know we come from different religious backgrounds, but from a Roman Catholic perspective, I concur as well. A lot of this is the same sort of speak you get from religious figures aiming not to spread the word of God or make their congregation think, but rather to rally them to some point. It is the ultimate conclusion of the "shepherding the flock" when used as a tool of control and manipulation, rather than for the benefit of the people. Televangelists use it often, as do cult leaders and charlatans. You're meant to feel like you understand the world, like you are powerful, strong, capable, and your soul is at peace. Our former pastor used to warn us about it, as kids. One of those "Satan can quote Bible scripture to suit his needs too, don't trust people just because they cite scripture" lessons.

[Hrairoo]

I know we come from different religious backgrounds, but from a Roman Catholic perspective, I concur as well. A lot of this is the same sort of speak you get from religious figures aiming not to spread the word of God or make their congregation think, but rather to rally them to some point. It is the ultimate conclusion of the "shepherding the flock" when used as a tool of control and manipulation, rather than for the benefit of the people. Televangelists use it often, as do cult leaders and charlatans. You're meant to feel like you understand the world, like you are powerful, strong, capable, and your soul is at peace. Our former pastor used to warn us about it, as kids. One of those "Satan can quote Bible scripture to suit his needs too, don't trust people just because they cite scripture" lessons.

Indeed. Well, partly my research out of Mormonism has overlapped into research on cults and control tactics utilized by such groups. I wouldn't go as far as to say Paula White is a cult leader, nor televangelists in general(it's not something I have researched deeply enough in that direction), but those controlling tactics and getting people into a suggestible state using repetition and an internal beat to the words, is something from the same toolbox that I recognize in that video.

[Fox Lokison]

I would go that far, but I wouldn't say it's a religious cult. Religion is just a tool, after all, to people seeking power. Taking advantage of genuine belief in the masses works. A cult of personality or a cult around them, more like.

I'm a pessimist from time to time about religion as well, but I generally evaluate religions on an individual basis rather than make sweeping statements about them all at once. I've had a few decent enough experiences with religion--despite being an atheist--where I'm unwilling to condemn the entire concept of organized religion. My focus is condemning the prosperity gospel specifically, since that's the dogma of the woman OP is asking about.

Meant to add my thoughts on this - organized religion has some flaws, but it has also done great amounts of good. I do think a lot of the discussion around organized religion also tends to center around the Christian faiths and the harm they've done, but organized religion as a whole spreads a lot further and has a lot more faces. It's unfortunate, however, that some of the largest or most notable ones are faces like these.

[Humble Scribe]

I have got a lot more relaxed about religion as I get older. I used to be a bit Chris Hitchens/Richard Dawkins about my atheism, stemming from some bad experiences in my teens, but I'm much more live and let live these days. No doubt it's easier living in England, which has a non-religious majority (52% according to a recent survey) and a state church so vague as to be pretty much humanism with a dog collar. All I would say is that any organisation - religious or otherwise - claiming a monopoly on truth has within it the seeds of oppressing those who disagree.

I saw the pastor's chanting as pure theatre, but I'm sure working yourself into an ecstatic state gets some people through the week. Whatever works for you.

The Prosperity Gospel is pretty grim, but I guess you can see the logical steps if you believe everything that happens is a result of divine Providence. If God controls everything, He must have made you poor for a reason, right? When medieval monks stole holy relics from rival monasteries (because Relics = more Pilgrims = bigger donations), it was known as furta sacra - holy theft - because obviously they couldn't have succeeded unless God wanted them to.

[Iniquitous]

I spent near a year in a church environment that was pentacostal and big on the speaking in tongues.  As it was told to us teenagers living in the group home, speaking in tongues was your soul speaking directly to god so that the devil could not understand and thwart what you were praying for.  It was also something that happened, per their words, only if you were touched by the holy spirit.

Usually, the words were nonsensical to the listeners though I never witnessed any of the ... theatrics... that that woman uses.

[Sara Nilsson]

I dont remember who it was, but Dillahunty had a guest on the Atheist Experience who shared his experience with similar things. They where expected to be possessed by the holy spirit when dedicating themselves to God in front of everyone. And he didn't feel anything, and the priest leaned in and whispered "fake it son we all do"

I know dillahunty has some other vids on it, ill see if I can find em later.