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Author Topic: Star Wars sequels  (Read 4316 times)

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Offline HailLuciferTopic starter

Star Wars sequels
« on: January 21, 2019, 01:29:40 AM »
Opinions? I personally love them. I grew up on the OT and I feel like I’m the only long term fan that actually likes the prequels. Most the prequel fan base got introduced to Star Wars through the prequels, which is totally fine and awesome!

Offline HailLuciferTopic starter

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 01:30:53 AM »
Lmao I meant sequels. But for the record, I like the prequels too. My brain is fuzzy rn because it’s late and I have a migraine.

Offline Bly

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 11:51:46 AM »
Moved this thread to Off Topic, as the Off Topic section is more germane for Star Wars. :)

Offline Fierbali111

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 05:27:27 PM »
I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 05:29:14 PM by Fierbali111 »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 07:21:31 PM »
Love the OT. Love the prequels. The Force Awakens is a decent flick. Last Jedi... I really wanted to like it. I thought I did after the first viewing. But the more I watched it, the angrier I got with it.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 09:09:10 PM »
I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

Rey fails plenty of times, and does not outclass Han or Luke. Han is still the better pilot and with a blaster and better talker, Luke is still a far more powerful Jedi, even Leia has shown to be more powerful than Rey though that scene was pretty jarring not gonna lie. Rey is still young and inexperienced similar to Luke during Empire and is not even as skilled yet as Anakin Skywalker and likely she won't reach that level. Keep in mind a problem also comes from level of technology, Luke during Return of the Jedi doesn't do all of the feats that Obi Wan can do in Phantom Menace when Obi was a mere padawan. But Obi Wan at that point wouldn't be able to beat Darth Vader, yet Luke could in Return. Because they escalate the powers and abilities based on available technology when the movies are made. If they remade A New Hope now Old Ben would be flipping off walls and Darth Vader would be crushing starships to throw at him(In the Disney Novels Darth Vader and Palpatine are Force Unleashed Level powerful as seen in Lords of the Sith where they destroy entire starships with ease and can defeat armies single handed, similar to the old EU). Again, comparing to other characters, in the first movie Luke blows up the Death Star and out-pilots tons of veterans. Rey out pilots a bunch of TIE Fighters mainly, she never even out pilots Ren who is shown as superior to her and more like Anakin(Who as a child out classed veterans). A lot of the flying scenes she's aided by Chewbacca in The Last Jedi who is often actually flying it. Poe is the far better pilot than Rey or Finn. Rey is not really the best at anything, she's just better at most things than Finn. Though he's a better shot and more skilled with military tactics and knowledge than she is. For combat it is basically an untested trained trooper(Finn) up against a force sensitive street fighter and survivalist with tons of experience(Rey). And Finn during his first real battle froze up and deserted. While Rey has had to kill before growing up for survival.



Also you may want to watch the movie again, Yoda doesn't destroy the Jedi texts. The movie contains a lot of subtle moments. Luke believes he did, as Yoda says the tree contained nothing she didn't already have.

“Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.” - Yoda

But Yoda is making a joke here. And it is shown later when people look through drawers on the Falcon, one drawer is full of all the Jedi Texts that Rey stole from the tree before Yoda hit it with lightning. Finn accidentally finds them when looking for a blanket and just thinks they're a bunch of random books but those are the sacred texts Luke showed Rey. It's a part of why I encourage repeat watches of The Last Jedi is a lot of things people miss because they aren't as attentive and such subtlety isn't common in a lot of Star Wars movies which are usually pretty blatant about things. Rey also showed great interest in the texts prior to this.

All of the main new characters have been shown to have flaws, to struggle to succeed, to have moments of fear and doubt. Rey really just beats up unnamed thugs easily(Makes sense she lived her whole life fighting against such people and is skilled with melee weapons). Rey for instance barely wins against Ren who was toying with her and was basically hit with a bazooka(Chewbacca's Bowcaster) the scene prior and was bleeding profusely and severely injured. Ren is also not even considered to be as skilled as basically any of the main Jedi or Sith we've seen, he has a power the others didn't show(Holding blaster bolts in the air) but Snoke and Luke are still the most powerful people around, or, who were around at the time. It is mentioned Ren isn't even fully trained and is still pretty novice and again that shows in his behavior. Darth Vader alone could probably take Rey and Ren at once while barely paying attention(Like he did to Luke in Empire). Poe not as much at first until The Last Jedi when he royally fucks up a ton. Honestly I can't think of a character who doesn't make serious mistakes in any of these films among the heroes or villains. Holdo was right about Poe but still miscalculated and her plan was foiled so she had to sacrifice herself to save the others. A lot of The Last Jedi is about learning from the past and trying to make a better future after all, with a focus on making a new better generation to take up the mantle after the old one has died out or been lost. Yoda is probably the only person in this movie who doesn't make mistakes, though it mentions he made many in the past such as during the Clone Wars.

Force Awakens is fun but pretty standard, The Last Jedi I think is contender for best Star Wars film in my opinion, I'd rank it in a similar place as Empire, A New Hope, and Rogue One. The Last Jedi I'd recommend repeat watches but Force Awakens you'll probably get all you need from one watch to be honest. And you can pick up on the things in The Last Jedi if close attention is paid throughout but people aren't really expected to do that for a Star Wars movie.

I still think Starkiller Base is really stupid, not just in the size and scale, but how it somehow fires that energy that then just goes into hyperspace itself or something? They treat it like it just itself fires like the Death Star but the Death Star needed to be at a planet to blow it up, and they don't fire it into like a focus that launches the energy through Hyperspace to a target. It just fires, goes into space, seems to trail off into the distance, cut to planets billions of lightyears away being blown up, unless Hosnian Prime blew up in like a billion years? It really makes no sense and it's a weird flaw that it seems like people during production didn't notice that is really beyond a lot of smaller science errors in Star Wars you can kind of ignore. The existence of Hyperspace jumps is designed to get around the distance and time problem via fast-than-light travel and they kind of just forgot or didn't notice this would require hyperspace.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 09:34:54 PM »
While I disagree with you about Rey (also known as Mary Sue, Star Wars edition), and without going into all the evidence of her acquiring force powers when the plot needs her to, acquiring skills when the plot needs her to (because even though she's only spent a few hours in the Falcon, of course she knows how to fix it better than that nobody Han Solo), since this was a flaw in both films.

While not going into all the plot holes, inconsistencies and plot twists used for the sole purpose of being expectation subversion that make the Last Jedi one of the worst films ever made, never mind the worst Star Wars movie of all time, I do have one question to ask: How is the Starkiller Base any more stupid than suddenly introducing the use of entering hyperspace as a weapon that can destroy fleets?

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 09:49:35 PM »
Hyperspace Rings are already shown in Attack of the Clones, Obi Wan's Jedi Starfighter uses them. Before Revenge of the Sith when they have built in hyperdrives. So already the Prequels establish those rings exist.

Rey doesn't gain new skills for the sake of plot she always had them, as mentioned she knows a lot about ships and has already been in the Falcon before as it was her boss's ship, she brings this up and how she thinks he made terrible modifications to it which Han agrees with. Han also is shown in the original trilogy to not be good at repairing ships, C3PO corrects him at times on how to repair the Falcon when Han couldn't and C3PO turns out to be right. And Han's ship is a modified common form of freighter, while it is modified it is still that common form of freighter which anyone can simply read about. And again, she mentions she's been in it before and worked on it in the film. And has flown before and spends almost all her free time in simulations. And still doesn't fly as well as Han does. The only one that was convenient is just that she can resist Kylo Ren's mind probe, which required just being powerful enough in the Force so Luke Skywalker and most main character Jedi can do that from the get go.

She's not as drastic as Luke Skywalker who goes from a farm boy who shoots rats in his training ship to blowing up the Death Star. Or Anakin Skywalker who goes from piloting a pod racer to blowing up Droid Flagships. Obi Wan was a padawan who defeated Darth Maul who defeated with ease a Jedi Master on the Jedi Council who was considered one of their greatest warriors(Though Darth Maul died mostly due to hubris). You can call Rey a Mary Sue but with that criteria most main characters in Star Wars are that then.

Or do you mean the Hyperspace ram? That's been done before in the EU. As well makes sense that it can work though often wouldn't. Enemies can scan your hyperdrive and your computers and just knowing it is charged up and where your ship is aimed would tell them when and where you're roughly going(Except distance which factors into travelling anything past a planet). So anyone wanting to hyperspace ram needs the enemy to not be paying attention, not expect it, or be so overconfident they don't realize it. Something the First Order hit the check marks for. And since it won't work from outside of a lightyear(Due to ships constantly moving and not actually staying still). Though it could be used on planets pretty easily since they follow trajectories and have orbits.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 10:43:38 PM »
Not sure what the hyperspace rings have to do with anything so... okay?

That said, there is no sign that Rey has ever piloted a ship before. No sign that she has ever operated so much as a blaster before, much less the turret guns on Falcon. She's a scrapper. At no point in the film is it ever displayed that she knows how to fix ships until she's on a ship fixing one. It's been a while since I've watched the Force Awakens, but from what I remember, the only thing that's set up of Rey's knowledge of the Falcon prior to her flying it better than skilled and trained imperial pilots fly their Tie Fighters is Finn pointing at the Falcon, and Rey says that it's garbage. And then proceeds to out-pilot Tie Fighter pilots with the same garbage. That's plot-acquired skills if I've ever seen them. As for fixing the Falcon, Han was always terrible at it, but as far as I know, that still trumps 'self-taught scrapper'.

So yes, far more drastic than Luke Skywalker, who was shown to have some skill in piloting charging into a battle and 'using the force' with the help of his dead mentor in a battle where some skill piloting a training ship and shooting at rats was enough since the rebellion was desperate for anyone at that moment. The rest can be amounted to what little that he learned about the force with Ben and then a bit of luck. It's a reasonable reach in logic, as opposed to Rey suddenly knowing how to out-pilot Tie fighter pilots with an old smuggling ship.

Similarly Anakin, having used the force without knowing it for years in building and piloting pod-racers (as the only human who can do it), and since most of the space battle is run on auto-pilot or R2 getting him out of trouble. Again, a reasonable leap.

And... well, I don't know if you remember the battle between Obi-Wan and Maul, but Obi-Wan was trained by one of the best of the best, and Maul still defeats him. The only reason why Kenobi walked away from that is because Maul decided to play with his kill instead of just killing him. Obi-Wan attacks, with his rage tapping into years and years of training and skill to stand up in a fight against a trained Sith Lord but still losing is not a leap in logic. Rey being able to not only stand up against but thoroughly trounce a trained Sith Lord (no matter how wounded, he still should have been able to crush her, or at least put up a fight) is a lot more of a leap. Her suddenly being able to perform a mind trick out of nowhere with no training is also a leap. Her being able to shoot not one, not two, but three fighters in her second firefight on the Falcon, and first time manning the turrets, is also a leap (though that was more of a rule of cool leap than anything). And don't get me started on the bullshit of the fight in the red room (conveniently disappearing knife by the red guardsman, anyone?)

Rey is a Mary Sue. That's not up for debate. She acquires skills and powers as the plot needs her to with no explanation, training or reasonable adaptation. She's completely lacking in flaws or weaknesses. She's a walking talking trope at this point.

As for the Hyperspace Ram, yes, that was the greatest plot point of them all. I'll admit that it looked cool, but if it is one of the greatest plot holes of all time. Not only because it's something that comes out of nowhere to change the direction of the plot (and therefore being inherently plot-centric), but because it gives rise to the question of why the hell is this the first time that it's being used? If it was used before (EU or no) why aren't there devices in place to protect against it? And don't give me that explanation that it's too expensive to be done with ships. It still would have been used at some point in the universe that would have merited some kind of mention, either in the clone wars, the Sith Wars... somewhere, sometime there would have been some mention of a desperate battlefield move that people have to prepare for now. It's creates a plot hole not only in the movie, but in the whole of the universe. There's no explanation for it, no prior mention of it, and if it were something new and bold, you'd think there would be some reaction other than sadness over Holdo's sacrifice. Not to be insensitive, but I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of the following.
Poe: "Holy shit, she took out a whole First Order fleet in one stroke. Why the hell didn't we pull this shit before?"
Leia: "Because it's too expensive, it's too dangerous, it has too many variables to account for, etc etc etc..."

Everything you said there regarding distance, size enemy distraction would all be okay, except that it's never addressed in the film or the canon. If a film is left open to questions to which the answers can only be found in vague, hard-to-find comics and books from the 70s sort of explain and which have already been invalidated and turned into 'Legends' it creates a problem usually referred to by writers as plot holes.

That added to the useless Finn and Rose romp to casino planet (that goes nowhere) the Poe vs. Holdo plot (That goes nowhere) the Finn sacrificing himself plot (which might have been a saving point for the film if Rose doesn't go in and almost kill him and herself to save him, so it goes nowhere), Rey's lack of training that doesn't do much more than provide exposition for Kylo's history, which also goes nowhere, since Kylo remains the same whiny, fit-prone emo that he was at the start of the film, the Last Jedi is full of a lot of padding and very little substance which is undermined by the plot holes and inconsistencies. That adds up to a bad film overall, in my book.

Edit: And let's not forget the useless opening bomber scene. That one actually annoyed me on my first viewing. Where the hell are you Y-Wing fighters that you see being used as bombers far more effectively in Rogue One.

Edit Edit: Oh, and the Leia floating through space scene too. That was just damn painful.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 10:53:41 PM by Deamonbane »

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 11:16:15 PM »
Well I explained the Rey parts, if you don't want to read what I said you don't have to but I'd just be repeating the parts where Rey in the Force Awakens states that she's been on the Falcon, since her boss owned it and that she's tinkered with it and, that she has flown before which she mentions, and that she spends all her free time in simulations which she states and we see her simulation programs and terminals in her house. I might suggest rewatching these movies. Rey had far more experience explicitly than Luke or Anakin prior to the events where they show off their skills, and Rey still doesn't show off as grand of moments.

Like do you think TIE fighter pilots are the best in the galaxy? It is established First Order troops and pilots are better than the old Empire, but still can be pretty bad. Finn is considered to be one of their best soldiers for example. Rey being a Mary Sue I'd find to be heavily up for debate unless again most other Star Wars heroes are too. Anakin is part of a prophecy even. To be frank Anakin and Luke are way more of tropes.

For the fight in the throne room, it is two skilled force users with lightsabers against a group of highly skilled warriors without lightsabers and without the force. Rey alone could not take them on, her and Ren combined barely did, and had the advantage of lightsabers and the Force. Though yes there is a technical error in that scene. Star Wars films have many of those. Ren alone probably couldn't beat them either and needed help.

I'm not sure why it's ok that Anakin and Luke were untrained but had mentors and luck, but Rey being experienced and having mentors and luck is not ok. Luke and Anakin are not established to have as much skill originally as Rey does. Anakin by Attack of the Clones is a trained fighter and experienced pilot, and Luke by Return of the Jedi is a fledgling Jedi, but they also do way grander of things. Rey has defeated TIE Fighters, has beaten a severely injured guy who wasn't trying to kill her, has defeated guards with the help of a far more skilled warrior while they both had the Force and their enemies didn't, and she lifted a bunch of rocks which she'd been training to do for a while. Mind tricks aren't established to be super hard, many characters use them with a flick of the wrist no concentration at all and Luke can use it in Return of the Jedi without being told how to do it. And Rey was told about the ability, and used it on a simple Storm Trooper.

The Hyperspace ram is not a plot hole, a plot hole would be the way fuel and propulsion works in The Last Jedi, since they're in open space and not within bodies with gravity pulls they wouldn't need to constantly use fuel, they'd just go in a direction once they reach the speed they want. The chase itself is more of a plot hole but more so based on basic science and knowledge of space travel. Which Star Wars in general is full of those. Using existing technology in a new way is not a plot hole, and there are methods to counter this such as having a powerful enough shield or simply being too big for it to work. It'd make more sense for the CIS to use this since they could just have droid piloted ramming vessels, but again wouldn't work really in open space unless against people who are overconfident, stupid, or are tricked such as the First Order was. It might be useful against the Death Star 2(They didn't have capital ships to fight the Death Star 1). But the shield would destroy them, and a Super Star Destroyer crashed into the Death Star 2 and wasn't shown to do any damage at all. Ramming itself we've seen in Star Wars Rebels, in Revenge of the Sith, and in Rogue One. And Interdiction fields have been around for a long time in the old EU, and are in the new EU, I'm trying to remember if they're mentioned off hand in The Last Jedi and Rogue One, I think they might be but if they do they don't explain what it is just use the known Star Wars term for it. That's a field that prevents Hyperspace travel around it, they use it in Rebels and Tarkin so it is Disney canon from before The Last Jedi. And the term has been around for over 20 years. So more so a reference for old school Star Wars EU fans. But even tractor beams would prevent it, or just blowing them up. Again, she surprised them. She surprised everyone.

Simply not understanding something doesn't make said thing a plot hole automatically. Many things are actually explained within a story or aren't contradicted by the story. Things happening at the wrong times or contradicting each other is where a lot of plot holes come from.

I think more of a problem is that we basically don't know the political landscape outside of the books. The movies don't really explain what the New Republic is like or how it functions, or why they had one fleet that was all at Hosnian Prime and why when the planet blew up it destroyed the orbital fleet that didn't just fly away when they saw the giant death ball of energy coming. The desire for the Resistance to be the underdogs like the old Rebels doesn't really feel earned, like why isn't there a New Republic army around did they really have their entire army grounded on a single planet? Bloodlines explains more of the political landscape and how the Centrists defected and joined the First Order splitting the New Republic. But we don't really know how big in scale the First Order is, at times they're an unheard of military group, at others they control half the galaxy but seem to have like six ships to spare to defeat their only enemies? Books explain certain aspects better but people shouldn't have to read the books to make sense of the lack of information in the film.

I'd say The Last Jedi is one of the most narratively consistent and solid Star Wars films, and is the most innovative. You don't have to like the movie, but a lot of these things are explained in the films. Or are references to older Star Wars materials. But most are explained in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi or the Prequels or the Original Trilogy. The only real one people might not be able to understand is that gravity wells might exist. Otherwise it's film stuff.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 12:29:30 AM »
First of all, Finn was an engineer before being a storm trooper, with no battle experience, and it shows. Even though he too manages to shoot one tie fighter in the battle, there's no demonstration of anything more than the skill that comes with passive Storm Trooper training. Actual pilots are shown to be an elite class in their own right, requiring a lot more training since... duh, flying a ship requires more training than shooting a blaster. So... I'm starting to think that you haven't watched the film, because at no point does Rey ever say that she's flown the ship before. Her actual lines are, and I quote "I've flown some ships before, but I've never left the planet."

That's it. That's the extent of her training up until that point. At this point, she has no force training, no real abilities in fixing anything more than what she owns (her little speeder thing) and taking apart pretty much anything else and selling it for scrap. That's supposed to be the extent of her skill in flying and repairing. Secondly... I've noticed that you avoided talking about the instant mind trick, so I think you know what I'm talking about. No training, no previous experience with anything other than scrapping fallen star destroyers. And suddenly she's an ace pilot, beating down trained Tie fighter pilots (again, training and experience would should trump the fact that she has no training in combat flying, no experience in combat flying, and is flying a run-down smuggling freighter.). The Tie-Fighter pilots shouldn't have needed to be the best pilots in the galaxy to take that on.

The the point with Anakin (thanks for dropping the Obi-Wan point), who's had experience using his force powers, knows how to pilot and react under extreme circumstances, and relied on R2 and an auto-pilot for the majority of his fight, and Luke, who had force training, had experience in combat flying being able to use the force in a very one-dimensional battle in which he had a top-of-the-line fighter ship and the support R2 and Han and the rest of the rebel fighter fleet to help him. It's a matter of support, training and luck for both of them. Rey only has luck. There's a canon booklet that shows that Rey has some training with a flying simulator, but that wouldn't prepare her for the kind of high maneuvering situations that she pulls off in the film, again with an ageing decrepit smuggling freighter.

At no point in the film is it established that she's flown the Falcon before. All that is established is that she knows that Unkar Plutt did and that it puts too much stress on that hyperdrive. I mean, she's never flow off planet, but she knows the intricacies of hyperdrives? Sure, okay.


Rey has no light saber training. Her only melee combat experience is with a staff (I don't suppose that I need to explain the differences between a scrapper staff and a complex melee weapon like a light saber) against ruffians. And yet, going up against one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, who is still in full possession of most of his faculties (Again, this is the guy that stopped a bolt in mid air. I'm thinking he could have saved himself some of the damage, since that same bolt is shown to kill armored Stormtroopers earlier in the film) and the ability to fight would at least put him on even terms with someone who's had no force training and whose combat experience in minimal. But no. He's pounded like... insert appropriate sexual metaphor here.

In the throne room fight, again, Rey, this time with minimal force training and just as minimal combat experience, takes on 8 fighters. In fairness, Ren does most of the killing in that scene, and helps Rey with most of her combat while she's stuck to defending herself. What I meant, though, was this scene:



I have no idea who approved that cut of the film, but that's just atrocious. Rey should have been dead right then and there. Twice actually, since that second blade is poised right at her gut in the first move, and then should have been free to stab her in the back in the next move. There are other choreographic goofs that made what I thought was the coolest scene upon first viewing the most headache inducing.

Either way, I did read what you said, and I questioned it, pointing out various inconsistencies. Your inability to respond to them without repeating what you've already said isn't really my problem. Pointing out that Luke and Anakin are Marty Stus (while I disagree) as well doesn't change the argument. Rey is a Mary Sue, whether there are other characters in the universe that share similar traits or not.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that fuel thing that they pulled, thanks for reminding me.

I've laid out everything that I have to say about the hyperspace ram. Again, referring back to a book and a comic that are from the 70s (that's almost fifty years ago) that have since been rendered non-canon and requiring people to research that tiny bit all the way back when to explain a move that changes the course of the film is just bad writing. That's not consistent, it's not referencing. It's bad writing. That's it. I'd go into detail, but I think this guy carries my point a lot better. You'll find his observations regarding the hyperspace ram start around the 33rd minute.



I'd suggest that you watch that whole series too.

That pretty much encompasses all I have to say. It's just lazy writing, so that, along with all the plot points that I laid out in my previous post:

That added to the useless Finn and Rose romp to casino planet (that goes nowhere) the Poe vs. Holdo plot (That goes nowhere) the Finn sacrificing himself plot (which might have been a saving point for the film if Rose doesn't go in and almost kill him and herself to save him, so it goes nowhere), Rey's lack of training that doesn't do much more than provide exposition for Kylo's history, which also goes nowhere, since Kylo remains the same whiny, fit-prone emo that he was at the start of the film, the Last Jedi is full of a lot of padding and very little substance which is undermined by the plot holes and inconsistencies. That adds up to a bad film overall, in my book.

Edit: And let's not forget the useless opening bomber scene. That one actually annoyed me on my first viewing. Where the hell are you Y-Wing fighters that you see being used as bombers far more effectively in Rogue One.

Edit Edit: Oh, and the Leia floating through space scene too. That was just damn painful.

Let's throw the hyperspace tracking bullshit in there too. And the fact that Holdo is in there. The woman is a walking plot hole.

All empirically prove that the Last Jedi is not the most narratively consistent or solid of the Star Wars films. Oh, and there's no mention of the tactic anywhere outside the comic and a book that have since been rendered non-canon. All it proves really is that the writer/director was uncreative in writing himself out of the narrative corner that he was in, which in turn proves that it's not the most innovative either. These things aren't explained in the films (hey, Rey, how did you learn the Jedi Mind trick if you've only just met your first trained force user five minutes ago? And how do you lift a literal wall of rocks when even Luke stopped training you after your first session together when it took the same Luke a long time training with one of the greatest force users in history to even start lifting rocks? That's like showing Luke pulling the cave down on top of the ice monster in Empire Strikes back) and most aren't even references to anything Star Wars. It was all new and mostly terrible. It was Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make something new and exciting with the Star Wars franchise by actively ignoring everything that has come before. What they did with Luke and Leia was an atrocity. What they did with Rose was an atrocity. Hell, what they didn't do with Captain Phasma and Snoke was an atrocity. Even the most innovative part of the film (showing that Rey's parents have nothing to do with who she is) was so poorly done that so many people think that they were actively ignoring the questions that J.J. Abrams started instead of building on it.

This is not a good movie. Not from a writing aspect, not from editing, and not from delivery. Most of the actors did the best they could with what they were given, and the visuals were pretty good, and so was the soundtrack, but that's it. If I want to see something like that, I'll watch a damned David Attenborough documentary.

So, yeah, like if if you want to. That's a matter of taste. But to hold it up against the likes of Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes back and say that it's better is where I draw a line in the sand.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:32:33 AM by Deamonbane »

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 12:45:40 AM »
First of all, Finn was an engineer before being a storm trooper, with no battle experience, and it shows. Even though he too manages to shoot one tie fighter in the battle, there's no demonstration of anything more than the skill that comes with passive Storm Trooper training. Actual pilots are shown to be an elite class in their own right, requiring a lot more training since... duh, flying a ship requires more training than shooting a blaster. So... I'm starting to think that you haven't watched the film, because at no point does Rey ever say that she's flown the ship before. Her actual lines are, and I quote "I've flown some ships before, but I've never left the planet."

That's it. That's the extent of her training up until that point. At this point, she has no force training, no real abilities in fixing anything more than what she owns (her little speeder thing) and taking apart pretty much anything else and selling it for scrap. That's supposed to be the extent of her skill in flying and repairing. Secondly... I've noticed that you avoided talking about the instant mind trick, so I think you know what I'm talking about. No training, no previous experience with anything other than scrapping fallen star destroyers. And suddenly she's an ace pilot, beating down trained Tie fighter pilots (again, training and experience would should trump the fact that she has no training in combat flying, no experience in combat flying, and is flying a run-down smuggling freighter.). The Tie-Fighter pilots shouldn't have needed to be the best pilots in the galaxy to take that on.

The the point with Anakin (thanks for dropping the Obi-Wan point), who's had experience using his force powers, knows how to pilot and react under extreme circumstances, and relied on R2 and an auto-pilot for the majority of his fight, and Luke, who had force training, had experience in combat flying being able to use the force in a very one-dimensional battle in which he had a top-of-the-line fighter ship and the support R2 and Han and the rest of the rebel fighter fleet to help him. It's a matter of support, training and luck for both of them. Rey only has luck. There's a canon booklet that shows that Rey has some training with a flying simulator, but that wouldn't prepare her for the kind of high maneuvering situations that she pulls off in the film, again with an ageing decrepit smuggling freighter.

At no point in the film is it established that she's flown the Falcon before. All that is established is that she knows that Unkar Plutt did and that it puts too much stress on that hyperdrive. I mean, she's never flow off planet, but she knows the intricacies of hyperdrives? Sure, okay.


Rey has no light saber training. Her only melee combat experience is with a staff (I don't suppose that I need to explain the differences between a scrapper staff and a complex melee weapon like a light saber) against ruffians. And yet, going up against one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, who is still in full possession of most of his faculties (Again, this is the guy that stopped a bolt in mid air. I'm thinking he could have saved himself some of the damage, since that same bolt is shown to kill armored Stormtroopers earlier in the film) and the ability to fight would at least put him on even terms with someone who's had no force training and whose combat experience in minimal. But no. He's pounded like... insert appropriate sexual metaphor here.

In the throne room fight, again, Rey, this time with minimal force training and just as minimal combat experience, takes on 8 fighters. In fairness, Ren does most of the killing in that scene, and helps Rey with most of her combat while she's stuck to defending herself. What I meant, though, was this scene:



I have no idea who approved that cut of the film, but that's just atrocious. Rey should have been dead right then and there. Twice actually, since that second blade is poised right at her gut in the first move, and then should have been free to stab her in the back in the next move. There are other choreographic goofs that made what I thought was the coolest scene upon first viewing the most headache inducing.

Either way, I did read what you said, and I questioned it, pointing out various inconsistencies. Your inability to respond to them without repeating what you've already said isn't really my problem. Pointing out that Luke and Anakin are Marty Stus (while I disagree) as well doesn't change the argument. Rey is a Mary Sue, whether there are other characters in the universe that share similar traits or not.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that fuel thing that they pulled, thanks for reminding me.

I've laid out everything that I have to say about the hyperspace ram. Again, referring back to a book and a comic that are from the 70s (that's almost fifty years ago) that have since been rendered non-canon and requiring people to research that tiny bit all the way back when to explain a move that changes the course of the film is just bad writing. That's not consistent, it's not referencing. It's bad writing. That's it. I'd go into detail, but I think this guy carries my point a lot better. You'll find his observations regarding the hyperspace ram start around the 33rd minute.



I'd suggest that you watch that whole series too.

That pretty much encompasses all I have to say. It's just lazy writing, so that, along with all the plot points that I laid out in my previous post:

Let's throw the hyperspace tracking bullshit in there too. And the fact that Holdo is in there. The woman is a walking plot hole.

All empirically prove that the Last Jedi is not the most narrative consistent or solid of the Star Wars films. Oh, and there's no mention of the tactic anywhere outside the comic and a book that have since been rendered non-canon. All it proves really is that the writer/director was uncreative in writing himself out of the narrative corner that he was in, which in turn proves that it's not the most innovative either. These things aren't explained in the films (hey, Rey, how did you learn the Jedi Mind trick if you've only just met your first trained force user five minutes ago? And how do you lift a literaly wall of rocks when even Luke stopped training you after your first session together?) and most aren't even references to anything Star Wars. It was all new and mostly terrible. It was Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make something new and exciting with the Star Wars franchise by actively ignoring everything that has come before. What they did with Luke and Leia was an atrocity. What they did with Rose was an atrocity. Hell, what they didn't do with Captain Phasma and Snoke was an atrocity. Even the most innovative part of the film (showing that Rey's parents have nothing to do with who she is) was so poorly done that so many people think that they were actively ignoring the questions that J.J. Abrams started instead of building on it.

This is not a good movie. Not from a writing aspect, not from editing, and not from delivery. Most of the actors did the best they could with what they were given, and the visuals were pretty good, and so was the soundtrack, but that's it. If I want to see something like that, I'll watch a damned David Attenborough documentary.

So, yeah, like if if you want to. That's a matter of taste. But to hold it up against the likes of Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes back and say that it's better is where I draw a line in the sand.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

Finn was a top scoring Storm Trooper cadet, they talk a lot about how well he did in training and how he is considered one of their best but cracked under pressure and disagreement with what he was seeing and deserted. He did used to clean things as well, as they mention in the film.

I never said she's flown the Falcon before, I said she's flown before. Again, something she says in the movie.

I also addressed the mind trick explicitly, meaning now I know you aren't reading my posts. Rey is not an ace pilot, Rey is a good pilot but not an ace, Poe is an ace. She also doesn't tend to outfly fully her TIE Fighter enemies but often relies on the environment such as on Jakku, which she lives on and what she's familiar with in old ships she has fully explored.

I didn't drop the Obi Wan point, you didn't read what I said so I stopped talking about it. I've mostly stopped responding to things when you aren't actually addressing what I said or reading what I said since there's nothing for me to respond to since you aren't really talking to me but at me. Pod racing is not the same as flying starships in battle, it is less close than flying ships in atmosphere on Jakku.

And again, why is it a problem for Rey to have luck and the aid of others like Chewbacca, but if Anakin with less experience at a younger age has the aid of R2 D2 and does way grander of things is fine? And are you saying the Millennium Falcon is not as good as a TIE Fighter? Considered one of the worst ships in any scifi setting? The new ones have shields but still go down really easy a lot.

You can know the intricacies of an engine on a vehicle you tend to without piloting the vehicle itself. Scottie in Star Trek is not exactly a perfect helmsman is he?

Rey also fights with the lightsaber in a similar way to her staff, such as against Ren. In the Last Jedi she trains with the lightsaber itself but also still is not as skilled with a blade as Ren.

I said that weapon vanishing was an error in the movie, why do you think I think it is not an error?

I've addressed a lot of these things, you've simply stated a lot of false things and lied about what I said. Gravity wells as I mentioned are Disney Canon. I said they were in Star Wars Rebels, and in Tarkin. Those are from the past 4 years, Rebels was the continuation of the Clone Wars show. And these aren't necessary to understand any of the things in the films, just are things that can make it more clear.

I've mentioned actual flaws in the movie and problems I have with it, I don't think it is perfect, but there's no reason for you to need to make things up like that. Either about the movie or me. As I said no one has to like the movie or think it is good, but saying things that are factually false is going to be misleading to others as you have been doing.

Please actually read anything I'm saying. I'm trying to be as patient and understanding as I can be but this honestly seems pretty aggressive from you. Please stop lying about me and stating things that anyone who scrolls up can see are completely false, or that you have yourself contradicted yourself on(Like Rey's flying). If this continues I will contact staff.

EDIT: So while I had the films up personally during this discussion, I managed to find some clips of the things about Rey. I couldn't share my own versions since well, it's illegal to and gifs or images won't actually be able to show a character said something, and would require people to actually watch the movies in question and certain scenes that were mentioned. But Rogue One and The Last Jedi people could bring up if they have Netflix since those are still on there. But not everyone has Netflix.





In these clips there is the specific scenes I talk about, I hope this is alright to edit in as I said I'm not looking to argue further but this is for people reading later who might be confused. Rey in them shows she knows the layout of the Falcon, runs immediately to the cockpit and tells Finn where the turret is located without having to check. In the second clip Rey mentions it is her boss's ship and she knows all the changes he made to it already and has examined them and understood the problems with them and told her boss as such. She has been on the Falcon very clearly before. She calls it junk because she didn't realize it was special, something she changes her mind about later. Which is unsurprising given it has one of the best track records in all of Star Wars. She also has heard of the Falcon though didn't realize this was The Millennium Falcon and is just familiar with this type of ship. Finn also in the atmospheric battle has to keep giving orders to Rey to tell her what to do and she follows his orders.


« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:26:59 AM by Tolvo »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 01:16:16 AM »
A. The Millenium Falcon is a smuggling freighter, not a fighter. In combat situations, it would be at a disadvantage (and if you're going to call up any of the scenes where it beats tie fighters, let's remember that they were being allowed to escape from the death star, they were running away from Tie Fighters the whole time during Empire, and in a pitched battle, where focus is dividing, a ship with shields and armor has an advantage).

B. From what I'm reading, Finn was a promising cadet, but in battle proved to be rather ineffective, as he breaks after his first actual combat experience. So... yeah, you said soldier, and held him as the highest standard, and ignored the fact that fighter pilots would require a lot more training and experience, so I'm not the one that's being dishonest with what is being said.

C. At no point in the films is Rey shown tinkering with the Falcon. As I look through the Wiki regarding her history, I can't see any mention that she tinkered with the Falcon. So, again, that's you being dishonest with the narrative. I may have misread you comment about her flying the falcon, but the fact remains that her only experience is flying a couple of ships without even leaving the planet and a couple of simulators. That falls well short of say Anakin's skills.

D. At no point after I laid my argument about Obi-Wan vs. Maul did you mention it again, so I'm forced to assume that you dropped the point. I'm sorry if that wasn't the case. I also have no idea what Gravity Wells have to do with anything. Like with the Hyperspace rings, you're bringing up points that have nothing to do with what we're talking about and then getting angry when I ignore them?

E. At no point did you explicitly address this scene, which is what I mean by Jedi Mind Trick, since that's what Jedi Mind Trick is.



Edit: As I reread, you did address it in a throwaway comment about Jedi Mind tricks being extremely easy to use. Despite how wrong that statement is, I do apologize for overlooking it.

F. The fact that she was able to fly a larger, heavier ship that hadn't been flown in years better than trained pilots could handle their smaller, more maneuverable fighters makes her an Ace fighter. And again, she's said she's flown before, but nothing I've seen in her wiki says anything about combat flying, which is what she's doing. Simulations could have prepared her for that (which in fairness does make her more prepared to fly something than Luke) but then Luke at no point is shown performing maneuvers on the same scale as she does. Also, how an action impacts the large picture of a film does not change the amount of skill involved, and while what Luke's and Anakin's actions were pivotal, very little skill was involved, comparatively speaking.

F. I made my points as clearly an as concisely as they could have been made. I showed no aggressiveness in making them, and at no point have I lied about you or stated anything that anyone who scrolls up can see are completely false. I misread a few things that you said, but you have done the same, and my points still stand regardless. I have no interesting in continuing a debate with someone who's first instinct is to threaten with reporting to staff as soon as they run out of points to make, so I'll cut my time here short.

I'm glad you enjoyed the Last Jedi.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 01:22:25 AM by Deamonbane »

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 01:22:42 AM »
Well I explained the Rey parts, if you don't want to read what I said you don't have to but I'd just be repeating the parts where Rey in the Force Awakens states that she's been on the Falcon, since her boss owned it and that she's tinkered with it and, that she has flown before which she mentions, and that she spends all her free time in simulations which she states and we see her simulation programs and terminals in her house. I might suggest rewatching these movies. Rey had far more experience explicitly than Luke or Anakin prior to the events where they show off their skills, and Rey still doesn't show off as grand of moments.

Like do you think TIE fighter pilots are the best in the galaxy? It is established First Order troops and pilots are better than the old Empire, but still can be pretty bad. Finn is considered to be one of their best soldiers for example. Rey being a Mary Sue I'd find to be heavily up for debate unless again most other Star Wars heroes are too. Anakin is part of a prophecy even. To be frank Anakin and Luke are way more of tropes.

For the fight in the throne room, it is two skilled force users with lightsabers against a group of highly skilled warriors without lightsabers and without the force. Rey alone could not take them on, her and Ren combined barely did, and had the advantage of lightsabers and the Force. Though yes there is a technical error in that scene. Star Wars films have many of those. Ren alone probably couldn't beat them either and needed help.

I'm not sure why it's ok that Anakin and Luke were untrained but had mentors and luck, but Rey being experienced and having mentors and luck is not ok. Luke and Anakin are not established to have as much skill originally as Rey does. Anakin by Attack of the Clones is a trained fighter and experienced pilot, and Luke by Return of the Jedi is a fledgling Jedi, but they also do way grander of things. Rey has defeated TIE Fighters, has beaten a severely injured guy who wasn't trying to kill her, has defeated guards with the help of a far more skilled warrior while they both had the Force and their enemies didn't, and she lifted a bunch of rocks which she'd been training to do for a while. Mind tricks aren't established to be super hard, many characters use them with a flick of the wrist no concentration at all and Luke can use it in Return of the Jedi without being told how to do it. And Rey was told about the ability, and used it on a simple Storm Trooper.

The Hyperspace ram is not a plot hole, a plot hole would be the way fuel and propulsion works in The Last Jedi, since they're in open space and not within bodies with gravity pulls they wouldn't need to constantly use fuel, they'd just go in a direction once they reach the speed they want. The chase itself is more of a plot hole but more so based on basic science and knowledge of space travel. Which Star Wars in general is full of those. Using existing technology in a new way is not a plot hole, and there are methods to counter this such as having a powerful enough shield or simply being too big for it to work. It'd make more sense for the CIS to use this since they could just have droid piloted ramming vessels, but again wouldn't work really in open space unless against people who are overconfident, stupid, or are tricked such as the First Order was. It might be useful against the Death Star 2(They didn't have capital ships to fight the Death Star 1). But the shield would destroy them, and a Super Star Destroyer crashed into the Death Star 2 and wasn't shown to do any damage at all. Ramming itself we've seen in Star Wars Rebels, in Revenge of the Sith, and in Rogue One. And Interdiction fields have been around for a long time in the old EU, and are in the new EU, I'm trying to remember if they're mentioned off hand in The Last Jedi and Rogue One, I think they might be but if they do they don't explain what it is just use the known Star Wars term for it. That's a field that prevents Hyperspace travel around it, they use it in Rebels and Tarkin so it is Disney canon from before The Last Jedi. And the term has been around for over 20 years. So more so a reference for old school Star Wars EU fans. But even tractor beams would prevent it, or just blowing them up. Again, she surprised them. She surprised everyone.

Simply not understanding something doesn't make said thing a plot hole automatically. Many things are actually explained within a story or aren't contradicted by the story. Things happening at the wrong times or contradicting each other is where a lot of plot holes come from.

I think more of a problem is that we basically don't know the political landscape outside of the books. The movies don't really explain what the New Republic is like or how it functions, or why they had one fleet that was all at Hosnian Prime and why when the planet blew up it destroyed the orbital fleet that didn't just fly away when they saw the giant death ball of energy coming. The desire for the Resistance to be the underdogs like the old Rebels doesn't really feel earned, like why isn't there a New Republic army around did they really have their entire army grounded on a single planet? Bloodlines explains more of the political landscape and how the Centrists defected and joined the First Order splitting the New Republic. But we don't really know how big in scale the First Order is, at times they're an unheard of military group, at others they control half the galaxy but seem to have like six ships to spare to defeat their only enemies? Books explain certain aspects better but people shouldn't have to read the books to make sense of the lack of information in the film.

I'd say The Last Jedi is one of the most narratively consistent and solid Star Wars films, and is the most innovative. You don't have to like the movie, but a lot of these things are explained in the films. Or are references to older Star Wars materials. But most are explained in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi or the Prequels or the Original Trilogy. The only real one people might not be able to understand is that gravity wells might exist. Otherwise it's film stuff.

Again you aren't reading my posts and are lying about me. You are lying about the content of the film as well and claiming that you have objective views about things that are highly subjective. Since you refuse to address the things I say or even read them and continue to lie, I'm going to stop responding.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 01:24:24 AM »
I edited my post and apologized. The rest of my posts and points remain unaddressed, though, so that's on you.

I'm glad you enjoyed the Last Jedi.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 01:33:15 AM »
For the OP, are we supposed to discuss sequels only? I was wondering if you meant specifically the new trilogy or if the new movies in general are allowed too. I did recently watch Solo which I thought was fine and I adore Rogue One but those are technically prequels.

Offline Fierbali111

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 03:47:00 PM »
I really liked rogue one minus maybe one or two small parts. I thought they should have made felicity Jones look a bit rougher around the edges as she was an imperial prisoner and basically an outlaw before then.

The Han solo movie had some moments, but for the most part bombed really hard. I found that they turned Han into a goofball, something i felt he never was in the original trilogy.

Then of course there was that bad guy(girl) that led that gang known as the cloud riders. When she took off the mask i was expecting an imposing Brianne of tarth sort of character but instead had a skinny 14 year old who was previously in the ice train scene physically overpowering Beckett, something that felt really off. Then when the rest of the imposing gang took of their helmets they turned out to be a band of forgotten misfits instead of the dangerous killers they were lead out to be, killers that stop killing as soon as they join Han's side.

Then of course there was the least subtle darth maul reveal of all time, you see his outline, then his face, then he uses the force, then he turns on his double bladed lightsaber. Jeez, i think i can get it.

Offline Azuresun

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 04:48:48 PM »
My personal thoughts on the sequels, which went rambling on a bit longer than I intended them to once I got thinking--

For me, TFA was good but not mindblowing. It felt like it was playing too safe and copying the original trilogy too closely (a droid carrying critical information comes into the hands of a desert-dwelling scavenger, who teams up with Han Solo to deliver it to rebel HQ, then there's a big battle against a planet-wrecking superweapon and a masked Sith who killed the mentor figure). The prequels were very flawed, but they were at least trying to do new things with the universe. Rey....I can't think of much to say about her other than "she's strong", she felt like everyone's first original character in the Star Wars setting.  ;)

TLJ, I would describe as frustrating. It's interesting, in that it feels like the film was trying to do something radical, but it doesn't quite work. A lot of the plot twists and developments in the story could be followed with "....but it doesn't really matter."--at least not within the movie itself, there might be payoff later. Finn and Rose go to the casino planet to get aid, but it doesn't really matter. Poe attempts a mutiny, but it doesn't really matter. There's a big space battle in the opening, but it doesn't really matter. There's a homage to the AT-AT scene in ESB, but it doesn't really matter. Luke confronts Ren, but it doesn't really matter. The rebellion survives, but it doesn't really seem to matter when it's like ten people in one ship against Empire 2.0.

As well as that, the pacing felt really bad. The casino planet arc added very little to the film for its length other than "give Poe something to do", and the landspeeder battle at the end added nothing other than "Hey, wasn't it cool when we did this in ESB?", and the mutiny subplot should have been dealt with in five minutes  but was needlessly dragged out for fake tension. And there's also the questions inherited from TFA and still unanswered--where the hell did the First Order come from, and how did they get so powerful? Where did Snoke come from, and why is he such a big deal? Yes, there's probably a 5-part EU series that addresses that, but it would have taken maybe five combined minutes of exposition in the movies to address the questions. You can't tell me that they were worried about the running time!

But I don't hate the movie. There's a lot of stuff in there that genuinely impressed me. The visuals are gorgeous, and the environments really creative. I'd watch an entire movie of Luke as the grumpy old mentor, and the scene with Yoda really worked for me--a reminder that trying to recreate the old Jedi Order that Anakin tore down was misguided. I even liked the idea of Rose, if not the execution--that the SW universe is a place where any random everyman can become a hero if they step up at the right moment. I actually liked the idea that Rey is just a random person rather than the Chosen One--it made for a good moment when she was ready to see anything in the visions, but wasn't ready to see nothing.

Especially, I loved Ren's arc. At first he seems like a whiny Darth Vader fanboy, but intentionaly so, and I liked that he ends up exceeding Vader in some ways (he outsmarts and usurps his master, as a true Sith should). And he feels like the only Sith character in the movies who really comes across as drawing their strength from anger. He's a really good villain....I just hope the films remember he is a villain and doesn't go for a redemption plot to appease the fangirls.

Overall, the impression I had was that the film is what you get when someone tries to deconstruct a setting, but doesn't really have an idea how to put it back together. So too much of the story just comes across as a collection of random events that don't amount to much (not helped by the aforementioned padding) and amount to "things just get suckier and there's no real way back". I kind of want to see where it goes next--if TLJ was part of an overall arc that's going somewhere, or if the third movie will be mostly trying to do emergency repairs on the universe and story.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 04:51:53 PM by Azuresun »

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 06:18:30 PM »
I don't think a lot of those scenes don't matter, but they a lot of them aren't strategically relevant. Many of them are not things that heavily impact the battles but are instead about giving characters their motivations and developing them. The Casino is to flesh out Rose more and teach Finn about the galaxy since as a Storm Trooper of the First Order he knows next to nothing about it. In the films they mention most First Order Storm Troopers are taken as babies and raised entirely within the First Order and only know what they're told and like Finn was in Force Awakens most have never even been in a battle(The Force Awakens is the very start of the First Order entering open conflict but they talk like skirmishes have happened before) and the few who have killed enemies more so just have gunned down unarmed civilians. Finn basically doesn't fully understand the stakes of the war or why everything is happening and how people can let these things happen, and the Casino also shows a bit of how the First Order did happen is greed, lots of people sell weapons to the First Order and have military contracts for them.

Though like I said, they really should explain the state of the galaxy more in the movies, the Casino arc partially does but it's still very little. Books explain the rise of the First Order but that should really be mentioned in the movies. Snoke's backstory I don't care too much about because how he got into that position doesn't really matter just that he is in that position(Or was). But stuff like even remotely any knowledge about the New Republic or the First Order and what is actually at stake and how the First Order is even this powerful and do they have borders, conquered planets, a government? Or are they just a paramilitary group and basically no one in the galaxy had an army but the New Republic and the Resistance and the New Republic had theirs grounded including the navy on a single planet that blew up?

The mutiny is again all about developing Poe as a character, but it is true they could have made a lot of these arcs shorter.

The salt planet scene is ok to me, not super great just like alright. It's mostly for the visuals and call backs and as a desperate last act to buy time. I do really enjoy the part though where a soldier picks up the salt on the ground, licks it, and goes "Salt!" Because that's just for the audience because they thought people couldn't tell and would think it was snow like on Hoth. And they were right from what I've personally seen many people needed that line to understand it was a salt planet.

I don't really mind the kiss with Rose and Finn, I don't think it was entirely necessary but I don't think it was terrible or anything. But I do think it was shot really weird, like they do it at a very awkward angle and I can understand not wanting a glamorous kiss in the midst of a battle after an attempt at suicide(Which the point of that was that you need to live to fight again and better the future, don't kill yourself as a pointless grand gesture now) but it just looks kind of weird and uncomfortable for them.

Luke vs Ren was just to distract him and defeat Ren ideologically and make him off kilter, he was really buying time for the others to escape.

And yeah I do like what they've done with Ren a lot, but I really hope they don't try to redeem him or make it a romantic story that's my biggest worry for the next movie because Star Wars likes to force that stuff pretty often. Darth Vader's redemption still seems really ridiculous to me(yeah I supported genocides and killed thousands personally and helped blow up planets, but I stopped my boss from killing my son. Thus, I am redeemed).

Offline Bly

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 01:31:03 AM »
Just as a note: we've had Star Wars threads before that have often become incredibly heated or uncivil--Staff knows this is a subject people are very passionate about, so we understand tempers can run high. That is natural when there's a subject people love so much and have so many disparate opinions about. But please step away from the keyboard or take a break from the thread if feeling frustrated rather than let tempers flare. Thank you.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 01:33:50 AM »
Just as a note: we've had Star Wars threads before that have often become incredibly heated or uncivil--Staff knows this is a subject people are very passionate about, so we understand tempers can run high. That is natural when there's a subject people love so much and have so many disparate opinions about. But please step away from the keyboard or take a break from the thread if feeling frustrated rather than let tempers flare. Thank you.

Thank you Bly.

Offline RedRose

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 09:48:34 AM »
My first thought when I'm asked is: like it or not this is what we have… and I love Star Wars so I'm happy it's there.

That said, there are many things I hate, and I hope they won't destroy good characters with a (badly done, cheesy-ish) redemption arc, or by turning them into (only) comic relief. Or on contrary, by making them COMPLETELY unrelatable and inhuman. Both Kylo and Hux are at risk mostly. Rey is another problem. She needs to be more… less… It was addressed above :D

But, it could always be worse. They could clone Jar Jar, and release an army of it onto the world.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 09:57:41 AM »
Well Kylo Ren does mention after seeing how terrible First Order soldiers and pilots are(Most have not seen any battle prior to Force Awakens and like Finn are basically just Virtual Reality trained with some sparring) that he was considering making a Clone Army. The First Order's new Gungan clone army could be a reality. :P

I think Ren is one of the most relatable Star Wars villains we've seen on screen, I think he's pretty irredeemable but also still is like a person just a very bad one. He isn't all knowing just evil because he was always evil, Darth Vader did have moments of this between him and Luke and I think it's just a problem of it being a product of its time and the OT being made when they were still figuring out Star Wars. But Ren seems more like the type of person you meet, many people I have met. Technically he could just stop doing all this crap but wants it to continue. Hux is pretty comic relief at this point I don't know if he really has much of an edge left to him anymore unless he betrays Ren and he might end up like Starscream typically did in Transformers.

Offline RedRose

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 10:42:32 AM »
Agree about Hux. Maybe he decided it just wasn't worth being serious rofl. Too bad though. Fun is fun, but I like a good villain.

Kylo I can see them wanting him to repent and go back crying to mom/Rey/Chewie (lol). Hope not. I'm not against redemption at all. Darth Vader's one was good, because he was always into his family and the emperor betrayed him. But please, no Kylo decides to go nice again so he can marry Rey. Dark Rey (or even just ambivalent) would be fascinating, but I'm not holding my breath

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 10:52:44 AM »
Kylo Ren I hope basically gets a last chance and is promised redemption and forgiveness, and spits in the face of the offer and tries to destroy everyone one last time. It seems more in line with his character to never learn, and that he's utterly destructive and can't even conceive of redemption for himself or going back on anything he's done. Though we still do get the hints like him being unable to kill his mother and letting his wing mate do it(Attempt to at least). But he strikes me as so far gone and without anyone for him to basically defeat to redeem himself it'd be a very hard arc unless some new more powerful villain is introduced just to give Ren a way to kill himself while saving others to redeem himself. Right now he isn't Darth Vader, he's Palpatine. He's at the top and is self centered and wants what he wants and he'll destroy anything that challenges him.