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Author Topic: Star Wars sequels  (Read 4359 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 11:04:01 AM »
Well, yeah. We're just spouting pipe dreams here, of a world where Disney use their purchase of the franchise to tell a new story that built on the work of the old one instead of just safely retreading it. We had Plucky Rebels vs. Evil Empire because, as you said, that is the core narrative of Star Wars. Unfortunately, Disney intepreted that as meaning they can only tell Plucky Rebels vs. Evil Empire, with any possible side stories either being irrelevant or serving solely to support that core narrative.

It's another reason why we will never see a live action Thrawn, because he was expressly written to be a competent, three-dimensional Imperial character. He just doesn't fit in the mold Lucas forged and Disney has adopted.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 11:43:08 AM »
Well a part of why I bring it up is that The Last Jedi was them trying to tread new grounds, do away with all the prophecies, bloodlines making people super powerful force users and giving them important destinies, a lot of very overplayed narrative devices that were in Star Wars though kept the rebel underdogs vs great empire part(Though that one was impossible to remove without just getting rid of the First Order somehow, or going back on the entire New Republic navy blowing up which I wish they would). If Disney listens to the vocal people angry about The Last Jedi, we're going to see a lot more retreading, a lot more playing safe. I'm not saying everyone who didn't like The Last Jedi is criticizing it poorly, but a lot of the most vocal criticisms are about things that were too subtle for them, or are of new ideas and the removal of overdone fantasy tropes that are found throughout Star Wars. And it often seems like said people are not going to be happy with anything they get so I hope Disney won't cave to that stuff. Certain things I'd like to see them listen to(Like criticisms of pacing for instance and working more on the way overly blatant science flaws like a projectile moving slower than the Death Star laser but hitting planets millions of lightyears away within minutes without using hyperspace). And it kind of worries me that we'll see more of where companies try to please every single person and end up pleasing no one.

It at times seems like people don't know if they actually want something new or actually want something old. The Force Awakens was too much of the same for many, The Last Jedi was too new for people. It asks where the balance is of old vs new.

While The Last Jedi was a massive success, got massive fan acclaim, and massive critical acclaim, it is still possible they're worried about pissing off the very vocally angry people(Especially after all of the harassment sent to the crew members and people working on The Last Jedi).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 12:17:10 PM »
You say that, but I just don't see it - that's the problem I have. The Last Jedi tried to have its cake and eat it to by claiming to burn the sacred cows while still keeping them alive and healthy. For all its claims and imagery of forging new narratives, it doesn't really deliver. To whit:

-Rey makes noises about abandoning the Jedi path, but takes the Jedi sacred texts with her and was still trained by Luke, at least to the extent Luke was trained by Yoda. She's still a Jedi in every sense of the term, just one who is learning from books instead of a master-apprentice relationship.
-Kylo loves to monologue about killing the past, but he's still obsessed with being Vader's successor. Snoke might look down on the Sith, but he re-enacts the Rule of Two right up to the sudden yet inevitable betrayal by his apprentice.

With regards to the movie itself, it tries to be a remix of Empire Strikes Back as much as The Force Awakens tried to be a remastered A New Hope.
-The salt planet battle happens at the end of the movie instead of the beginning, but is unquestionably designed to evoke the Battle of Hoth.
-Kylo and Rey's confrontation in the throne room where he asks her to join him and together they can rule the galaxy as father and sonship-teased male/female leads is such familiar ground I was half-expecting Rey to get her hand cut off, right up to the imagery of the extended black glove.
-TLJ ends on the same downer note/low point as ESB did, with the rest of the galaxy failing to show up at Leia's rally in unity against the First Order. If Johnson had really wanted to break new ground, this is where he could have done it - have them think no one is coming, then by ones and twos all sorts of different fleets from Mon Calamari to the Hutt Cartels appear. Boom - you can keep continuity with the official Republic fleet being blown up while still getting an entirely new fleet of volunteers to fight back.

It was still retreading safe ground, just with sprinkles and window-dressing to give the appearance of being something innovative. I'm not entirely willing to blame Johnson on his own for this - he's still working for The Mouse and Kathleen Kennedy had overall control between movies, but I think a lot of the criticism would have been muted if he actually committed to one side or the other instead of attempting to thread the needle and get the best of both worlds.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 12:19:25 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2019, 12:41:00 PM »
Say what you want about the prequels, but they show a lot of things and people in a very ambiguous light. Sure, the bad guys are bad, but the Jedi aren't saints either and intentionally shown at the end as being on the same coin as the Sith, with Mace Windu's mirroring of Palpatine's 'He's too dangerous to be kept alive'.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2019, 12:44:44 PM »
True, and Anakin's entire Fall is presented as a string of increasingly dark shades of grey - the road to the Dark Side is paved with good intentions, so to speak. First it's an altruistic desire to intervene proactively against slavery and injustice, then it becomes personal.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2019, 12:51:58 PM »
Snoke doesn't follow the Rule of Two, he has had other apprentices Ren is just his greatest one, and the way Snoke words his talk of other apprentices makes it sound like they are still his apprentices just that Kylo is his focus. They also may be the Knights of Ren, as Kylo led them, before that they followed only Snoke and under Kylo still followed Snoke and are Dark Side followers and are talked about like they're force sensitives, though we still know very little about them. I'm guessing they'll be the enforcers for Kylo next movie. And Ren is the representative of what is wrong with focusing too much on bloodlines. He's very much a character showing the flaws in his behavior not promoting them as good. Ren is the antagonist.

The Jedi texts may not be adhered to, she may read them and disagree with them, or read them and take concepts but still forge her own path or even not set up a new order at all. And since those books are allegedly from the founding of the Jedi order many thousands of years ago(Not quite sure what they're made of that they survived since in Disney books that is the Jedi Order homeworld and those books are like 10,000 years old) and may be quite a bit different from the Jedi Order we saw in the prequels as well.

And yes there are still similarities, that's a part of what makes me concerned a lot of people don't know what they want, The Last Jedi was still in ways playing it safe. If they wanted to go all in they'd have been far more drastic, and not let the Jedi Texts survive, they'd have completely set into motion things that can't easily just be changed and left methods for the story to later be changed if things didn't work out. And the less safe routes they took people still hated for even mildly subverting tropes and having meta commentary on the series.

Also no I'd call Anakin pretty evil in Attack of the Clones and beyond, once he butchered all those children and did that one man genocide of a village he was pretty much too far gone. It's a part of why I find it so weird that the prequels either make Old Ben more of a liar or are retconning his comments in A New Hope, because Obi Wan and Anakin don't get along at all and disagree on everything and Anakin is a huge hateful asshole most of the time. Old Ben talks with a fondness you probably wouldn't have for your overly aggressively hateful coworker who killed almost everyone you love and genocided your entire religion and butchered children. Especially after you personally almost died to him and had to leave him burning cut apart on a lava planet. Especially when Anakin falls to manipulation from Palpatine that either means he is the dumbest person around, or that Palpatine can just mind control everyone around him which is really boring. I'd say Anakin was never gray at all, as a child he did get into fights but as an adult he was basically a genocidal serial killer who wanted to control everyone around him.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2019, 12:59:11 PM »


Despite everything, Obi-Wan loved Anakin. He raised him from a kid. They weren't coworkers. They were family. The fact that this is lost on you makes a lot of other stuff suddenly make sense.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2019, 01:05:28 PM »
Please stop making personal attacks towards me and false assumptions about me during a discussion. As I've said I try to be understanding and patient with others but it is annoying when this keeps being done to me. Things like this aren't lost on me, I think they're flat out badly done. I don't want to start bashing the Prequels but I do consider them the worst films in the Star Wars series(Though I did like them as a child). So when trying to discuss this with me and using what I consider to be terrible movies as a good standard isn't really going to be convincing to me. You might as well be using Jar Jar Binks to me as an example of a well developed well written and interesting fresh character that everyone loves to me.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2019, 01:07:04 PM »
You're right, and I apologize. It won't happen again.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2019, 01:09:38 PM »
Though, and with no personal attack intended, the prequels get better each time I see them. Revenge of the Sith is easily in the conversation of the best film of the franchise.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2019, 01:16:14 PM »
They seem worse to me every time I see them. Though I don't think anyone is stupid or less of a fan if they like them, and I think a lot of talented people worked on them and that there is a lot of unnecessary hatred towards them and the people who made them(While I don't like what George Lucas made with the Prequels I don't think he destroyed Star Wars or my childhood). A lot of the people who worked on it are very talented, and I think there were a lot of factors that impact how it turned out(Going so heavy on green screens really impacted the ability for actors to get into character and a lot of interactions and limited them using the set to chew up the scenery) as well as it getting released when the graphics were getting kind of good but not great, so it looks incredibly dated now and back then still looked a lot like a video game(Certain parts still look good, like Grievous but the average Clone Trooper looks so fake). I kind of wish we could get a better executed redo because the Rise of the Empire and the political aspects I think are very interesting and that if they just executed it better I'd find them to be far more solid of films.

But in general I don't like to insult people for the media they enjoy and don't feel like I am superior because I like only "good" things(Note I like plenty of things considered to be crap).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2019, 01:20:00 PM »


And yes there are still similarities, that's a part of what makes me concerned a lot of people don't know what they want, The Last Jedi was still in ways playing it safe. If they wanted to go all in they'd have been far more drastic, and not let the Jedi Texts survive, they'd have completely set into motion things that can't easily just be changed and left methods for the story to later be changed if things didn't work out. And the less safe routes they took people still hated for even mildly subverting tropes and having meta commentary on the series.


Yeah, that's why I think it got the hate it did. It's easy for some people elsewhere on the Internet to say that it was massively, near-universally popular except for a tiny minority who doxxed/spammed/bought/faked a disproportionate amount of outrage, but I think the reality is that it was in fact a tremendously controversial movie, and my belief is a large amount of that is because it refused to fully commit. An entirely new direction to the story would have been a giant risk, and Disney is famously risk-averse, so they couldn't truly tell a new story. Instead they half-assed it, resulting in them infuriating both the Star Wars purists who insist on total fidelity to the legacy and infuriating the...divergents? I dunno...who were sick of the same old stories and wanted to see something new done with the potential SW contains.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2019, 01:28:03 PM »
I'd agree with you about the graphics needing a redo, but other than that, I have only a couple of corny lines of dialogue to complain about (Some of Anakin's interactions with Padme were stilted and cringe-worthy). However, the same can be said about a lot of aspects regarding the originals as well.

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2019, 09:03:13 PM »
The thing I'll point out about the Prequels is that everything people did not like about them was absolutely present in the original trilogy's scripts. It's just by the time of the prequels Lucas didn't have peer review. I also have never walked away so dissatisfied with a movie as I have with The Force Awakens. I mean the moment to moment stuff was fine. I thought Rey was an abysmal boring character given to a perfectly good actor. I thought Fynn's arc held the most promise and thought the climax would have been ten times better if Rey had been defeated by Ren and then Fynn had managed to fight him off (not win, but fight him off). That would have put Rey's skill into a more human context and been a natural progression for Fynn. By that final showdown there was no tension. It wasn't some Luke V. Vadar fight. I knew the second Rey stepped into the ring she was going to win, because she wins at everything. It's established by the movie. Fynn was much more up in the air and tense.

But that's not what happened and I ultimately left the movie theater more interested in the bathroom and feeling like I'd just left some kind of subliminal message machine designed to check off all the little buttons on my nostalgia center. *Shrugs* It felt like a Star Wars movie designed by a committee.

I've not seen the Last Jedi, and I don't want to. Ultimately I learned that sometimes you can't force the things you loved as a kid to grow up with you and that's okay. Maybe it'll inspire someone else or at warn them of what not to do. Who knows?

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2019, 09:41:39 PM »
But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory. Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.  He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them. He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace. Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her. She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations. She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers). Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca. And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured, and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced). And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.

Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).

EDIT: Removed the part about Luke and Leia, that was outrage from Return of the Jedi that I accidentally put in there. About the Star Wars shipping communities of the 80's being angry with the sibling reveal as Luke and Leia were the most popular ship, though the original script for Empire had Anakin Skywalker(Who was a different character from Darth Vader at this point) reveal Luke's sister, who was not Leia. George changed that out after.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-cronin/luke-and-leia-kiss_b_8817166.html
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:51:00 PM by Tolvo »

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2019, 11:26:35 PM »
But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory. Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.  He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them. He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace. Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her. She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations. She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers). Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca. And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured, and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced). And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.

Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).

EDIT: Removed the part about Luke and Leia, that was outrage from Return of the Jedi that I accidentally put in there. About the Star Wars shipping communities of the 80's being angry with the sibling reveal as Luke and Leia were the most popular ship, though the original script for Empire had Anakin Skywalker(Who was a different character from Darth Vader at this point) reveal Luke's sister, who was not Leia. George changed that out after.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-cronin/luke-and-leia-kiss_b_8817166.html
Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't follow this at all. This seems to miss by a wide margin and I'm more confused than anything.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2019, 11:32:32 PM »
Might not have been at you. There's at least 2-3, maybe 4, different sub-topics going on here interwoven between different people.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2019, 11:58:44 PM »
Hmm? No I was responding to Ink. I was addressing specifically things he mentioned. Though the part about them playing it safe in the future and the past is more broad to the conversation of the sequels.

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Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2019, 06:46:46 AM »
Okay in the interest of being fair I'm going to have to do something I really detest doing in discourse, but it's the only way I'm going to manage your post. I'm going to have to fisk this post. I apologize in advance.

But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory.
I didn't say that. I said, "Everything that people hate about the Prequels was present in the Original Trilogy. Some of the widely known criticisms of the prequels were:

Boring political plot (Pre: Trade Fed, OT: Empire)
Gimmicky sidekicks (Jar-Jar, Ewoks)
Acting (Anikin, "BUUUT I WAS GOING TO TACHI STATION TO PICK UP SOME POWER CONVERTERS!"

My point was that people like to rake the Prequel movies over the coals for stuff like this, but it was always in George's wheelhouse to do it. What changed was he didn't have peer review this time around. A lot of people helped shape Star Wars, if anything the Prequels should be a cautionary tale about the need to editing not trying new things.

Quote
Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.
Yep, bullseyed some wamprats in his T-16, but all that's used in the movie its presented was that the small target they were shooting for could be hit. Have you ever seen a movie called Sargent York? It's got a famous seen where he shows superlative turkey-shooting skills. Country boy knowing how to shoot trope, and it's a much bigger plot point in that film. I bet ten bucks Lucas saw that film. Point is that the scene was establishing it can be done, and yes we all know Luke is going to land the shot because movies, but the movie does have one other guy try to make the shot to show it's not easy.

Quote
He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them.
Good bit of writing right there, because you know he didn't pick up a lightsaber the first movie in and duel Darth Vadar. That would have really been weird and inconsistent for a guy who got bushwhacked by Tusken Radiers. Good bit of writing.

Quote
He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace.
I don't think you have support for this point. By the end to the trilogy Luke's shot down 1 maybe 2 (memory's fuzzy) tie fighters from the gun seat of the Falcon, he got to the end of one long trench, didn't outfight Darth Vadar in a dogfight (Darth Vadar got shot out by Han Solo and because Han got the drop on him). Then he got his land snow speeder wrecked. It's a legitimate rebellion so who knows how good any of the other pilots are. The movie doesn't establish. The whole trench run was more a last hurrah to lay the torpedo in. I very much got the idea that they were all shooting for the trench trying to keep the Y-wings safe but they were full gas for that vent, no one was really stopping to engage the tie fighters. Then they were all fleeing, and he crashlands his X-Wing in a swamp. I don't think he does any meaningful flying for the rest of the original trilogy. The forest speeder section is right up his T-16 alley though.

To wrap up the Luke points though: So? I didn't bring him up you did. I made a deliberate effort to let Rey stand in her own movie without comparisons to anyone outside of her movie. This whole thing right here is way out of left field.

Quote
Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her.
Let's be honest. Experienced, veteran combatant is an overly generous term that implies professional skill. She's probably a very good street fighter who in theory having been left there as a little girl had to have some one looking out for her in some capacity or spent most of the time sneaking and running. What your saying gives the implication she was taking down muggers well before her teenage years which I'm not going to say is true.

Quote
She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations.
Now, I only watched TFA once, and I'm sure I didn't fall asleep during it, but it would have been nice if you know the movie had showed this? Maybe there was a throwaway line? But I didn't hear it. I didn't see her spending a lot of time at a holo arcade or something, nor did I see an overabundance of holo arcades in her shanty town. Are you pulling from non-movie sources, because that's not going to cut it.

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She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers).
But Rey's theoretical junk-town simulators, those are way better than state funded ones. Now this is going to be a more a condemnation of JJ Abrams's bad directing "Mystery Box" method than Rey, because I'm not saying Rey couldn't have had some of this. We're all fans of a child of destiny trope, but because Abrams is a bad director and the only thing he has to keep people hooked is internal questions with no payoff we don't learn if Rey has any special heritage to justify this, we don't learn if she has. We also only see her take out of few people and never struggle in situations outside of her context.

As someone who holds held a brown belt in karate let me tell you. I could take you out with a bo, I trained for about two years with it, two days a week in class and several days outside of class. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, I'm saying it to provide context. I might pick up a sword, I know swords, but I haven't trained with swords. A competent sword master is going to kick my ass, unless... wait what if Rey got like a vibro staff and fought Ren the first time with it because when she tried to use the saber she found he was better at it in every way so she defaults to her strengths?

Nope people want to see a lightsaber fight, give 'em a lightsaber fight, just make her instantly good with an incredibly light, fast, amputation prone weapon (that in reality I found out would cause organic tissues to explode like a can of a overheated can of a aerosol, but I get why they don't do that).

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Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca.
Mmm... she did way better than she had any right to with just slapping some duct tape on the old Mil Fal and putting her through some hardcore paces for having pulled it right out of the sand. Chewie makes everyone looked better, too. That's Chewie's job.

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And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured,
Sorry to stop this at a comma but this is a really bad comma splice and I want to separate out the two separate-but-fused ideas. No she doesn't fail quite a bit. She fails very little. I get that you're not going to accept that as an answer, but she doesn't fail. I don't except failing to stay on Jakku as a moral, personal, or physical flaw of hers either. Everything she touches comes up aces. In fact her capture is the first point of vulnerability. The first point in the whole film where she actually has to rely on the skills and abilities of other in a meaningful way. I sat up thinking, "Oh boy, we're going to get to see the others step up and Rey's going to have her moment where she realizes she has to rely on other people and we'll get some genuine character growth--never mind she just learned the Jedi mind trick without even knowing it could be done.

At least Luke had seen that one in action at this point.

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and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced).
I feel I can tackle this one as the general fight scene. I've already detailed two ways I think this fight scene could have been better, one in this post and one previously, but again. He's not blooded but he's still better trained than her in the weapons they're using, and with the particular weapon he's using. Battle of wills is fine, and I get that he wouldn't want to force read her again, but he's still a man strong enough to stop laser bolts in the air with the force. He should be strong and skilled enough in the force to force-hold her in the air and monologue her and kill her at his leisure should he feel it's going nowhere, but Rey isn't allowed to have weakness so that's not going to happen. And that's kina boring that's why it wasn't my option one rewrite for that scene, but it's still possible given what's established in the movie. There are a lot of little things they could have done to make this fight a more humanizing experience for Rey but at this point I was totally divested (not un-invested mind you) of any care for her character arc.

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And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.
Of course not, but it wouldn't hurt her to lose a hand...

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Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).
Now we finally get to something that looks like a reply to my post. This is why I fisked this whole thing. Again I'm not going to comment on The Last Jedi because I didn't like TFA and I'm not in the habit of throwing good money after bad after adopting my general no hype, no pre-order, only the merits of the product and if I can get interest up for it philosophy of media consumption. So back to the nature of TFA. I get that they didn't want another Prequel. I think the movies aren't nearly as bad as people think and you have a lot of hurt adults who saw the OT as kids realizing you can't go home again. However, I stand that TFA isn't just a safe movie. It's a manufactured product. It's really endemic of the whole industry really.

You don't really have JJ Abrams's take on Star Wars (even though I don't think his unrestricted take on it would have been any better), you have a very careful and manicured and overseen set of Star Wars-shaped pieces put into a Star Wars shaped mold to make something that looks, smells, and feels like Star Wars but again left me feeling like someone had deliberately manipulated me by trying to push nostalgia buttons. I know this is easy to say, especially since it's so hard to escape corporate overlords in media, but I'd rather have the horrible flawed but honest vision of a creator than the perfectly manicured product of a corporate committee. I don't think playing it safe is what they did, and even if it was I still don't think it made and enjoyable movie.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 06:51:14 AM by Inkidu »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2019, 09:32:14 AM »
Fun bit of cameo trivia - the trooper that Rey mind controls to get out of captivity is played by Daniel Craig, aka James Bond.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2019, 09:34:37 AM »
I don't understand why you think me directly addressing your point was not addressing your point? you mentioned that the criticisms of the prequels were present in the original trilogy, then your criticism of Rey was present in the original trilogy.

Luke Skywalker does take down TIE fighters fairly easily, he does blow up the Death Star, he does fight alongside and against very skilled pilots. They talk about how the Rebel pilots are very skilled and how they're unsure about someone who hasn't ever flown even in space before taking part in the Death Star assault. And he does survive Darth Vader, he needs to be saved, but the person they treat as the best pilot Wedge Antilles even gets show and has to retreat. Luke does get help, but also shows his incredible skill. And Darth Vader just tears through everyone else but Luke. I never said Luke out flew Vader, this is another thing that is frustrating I use very specific language that people ignore to assume I mean something I didn't actually say. I literally said that Luke out piloted everyone EXCEPT Darth Vader, you read that as me saying he out piloted Darth Vader, the opposite of what I said. What am I supposed to do when people don't even read my posts?

I don't understand why lines mentioning Luke having skills such as the shooting womp rats is seen as a good explanation, but Rey talking about her own experience isn't.





This is a part of why I keep having to repeat myself a lot, as I said early on I felt people missed things in the movie for one reason or another. And I can get why especially in The Last Jedi as it was far more subtle, but it kind of sucks to have to try and find youtube versions of every scene in the entire movie to show people missed a lot of things over and over. I've had the films up to double check to make sure my memory is correct, but I can't just send people copies of these movies. I keep specifying when things are in books and when they are in the films themselves. As I've mentioned, I think they films shouldn't need books to explain parts of them and they should be able to stand on their own, only bringing up books into when they have additional info for people wanting to know more details or where ideas come from and that they aren't new to Star Wars just the films.

And you did bring up Luke Skywalker, because you brought up that things in the prequel trilogy that people were critical of were still present in the original trilogy, and I brought up that the same is true for the sequel trilogy. The criticisms about Rey apply even more strongly to Luke(And to Anakin in an even greater way).

Veteran I'll concede was a word I should not have used, I was using it in comparison to those she fights but yes she is not a veteran in a broader sense only the old people really are and Phasma. I didn't imply she was taking down muggers who were adults as a young teenager or before her teenage years, she would probably have fought back against other people her age up until she was large enough to put up more of a fight, but they do establish she is experienced(Which again, I didn't say she was trained, I said she was experienced). Rey talks about how she was alone and how no one on Jakku cares for each other and how people are always trying to steal from and kill each other because it is so harsh, and we see scenes showing this. Rey also again beats up random thugs and people of that nature. While Storm Troopers are trained they still don't tend to have any real combat experience while Rey is untrained but does have combat experience. She doesn't have military experience(She doesn't even recognize the sound of TIE Fighters flying overhead and Finn has to grab her and pull her away before they blow up on Jakku).

Rey's flight simulations are something she mentions and we're shown them actually in her home. Rey's home is a down AT-AT, and she scavenges the remnants of Imperial forces and Rebel forces on Jakku, which includes Star Destroyers. This is where she gets her flight sims from, she is using military flight simulators from the Rebel and Imperial war.

I don't get why you assume I don't have martial arts training? I'm not an expert but I have been trained and I study martial arts in a historical context. And Rey doesn't fight like a person familiar with a lightsaber, she uses it similar to her staff(She even thrusts a lot with it in Force Awakens, and fights with it like a more of a cutting sword in The Last Jedi). Ren doesn't want to kill her and is trying to bring her to his side, and he was also show with Chewbacca's Bowcaster which is used as a running gag in the movie for how it just blows everything it hits apart and they show it is like a bazooka. Ren got hit with that in the abdomen, and is visibly bleeding and stumbling and keeps punching himself to fuel himself on through the pain. Even still he would have beaten Rey if he had tried to but didn't. And when you are basically toying with an opponent is a good time for them to overcome you.

I also don't get why you say that Rey doesn't fail and isn't allowed weakness, but that she was vulnerable and was captured. Does she fail and get captured and show weakness, or does she not? She also is often mentored in how to do things even by Finn who is not exactly an experienced knowledgeable guy but he does know the First Order well. Rey didn't even really know how to fire a blaster and Han Solo gets the drop on her and Finn easily. To mention the mind trick, the Force powers Rey uses she gets told about by others. Han and Ren mainly tell her things about the Force and she duplicates them similar to how Luke does, she also screws them up at first and uses them on Storm Troopers. Who again, are not force sensitive and who we see get mind tricked in the original by Old Ben. Ren is her semi-teacher and even Han is at this point until The Last Jedi, it's why I brought up before that the only new power she just gets is resisting Kylo Ren's mind probe but they mention it is because she's strong in the Force, so most Force users we've seen could resist this who are main characters. Probably a padawan weak in the Force couldn't I'm guessing but who knows, any Force power at all might resist it we have no idea if he's every successfully used it on a Force user.

I also never said TFA wasn't manufactured, it's a big budget movie nearly all of those are. I specifically talked about how they were playing it safe and were focusing on crowd reactions and fandom reactions, which is not making what they exactly would want but what they think will upset the least people and will excite the most people. I'm not under some illusion that movies are made for free by tons of people who only do it for the art of it, these are paid people trying to make money who are under a massive corporation. And I don't like JJ Abrams I think he's a boring director personally(Which is why I'm concerned for the next movie, since I consider The Last Jedi a massive step forward but worry that JJ will take a step backwards). There's a lot of other directors I'd rather see on the next Star Wars movie, hell give it to Taika Waititi(Though he is working on episodes of the Mandalorian).

And keep in mind again, I haven't said others don't watch the movies but have had it accused of me, I have not talked down to others but have had that done to me, I've been lied about a lot in this thread and accused of things that I've never said or even accused others of, I've mentioned when people have lied after mentioning something as a fact that they then claimed was untrue even when it was. Saying things aren't said that are makes the statement untrue. Now, saying those things aren't clear enough or enough explanation for each person individually is more of a subjective thing that can be discussed. But whether or not a character actually said something or did something in the films is a matter of fact. I'm considering leaving the thread simply since it's been so hostile and people are not actually addressing a lot of points and it feels like people aren't even reading my posts(Some are I should mention, and some are reading some parts but not others).

As well people are applying criticism to the sequels only that they don't also apply to the other trilogies which have those same problems. If someone said Rey is a mary sue, and then that Luke is too. Sure I can understand that more so, going by anything that defines Rey as one would include Luke(Unless it is gender based). If a movie is bad for having x, but another movie isn't bad for having x, it's noticeable very easily. Now if a movie is bad for having a lot of things including x, and another is good despite having x, that's another matter. But we should apply things equally and not let our own liking of certain things bias us(I've mentioned a lot of flaws of the Sequels and how I think there are a lot of things to criticize).

EDIT: Also if people do want to argue that Kylo Ren was uninjured by being hit in the abdomen by Chewbacca's bowcaster which sends people flying and functions like a bazooka, especially that Kylo Ren didn't even bleed from it. As I mention he does bleed, they dedicate multiple shots to him hitting himself in pain and struggling to move(He is limping at points and having to focus to walk and move around, despite which he still dominates the fights), and show his blood in a snow and at one point the camera goes down and the entire shot is just Kylo Ren's blood, snow, and his boot.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 09:58:26 AM by Tolvo »

Offline Fierbali111

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2019, 11:31:25 AM »
I think the problem here is that everyone is typing full on essays and by the time you reach the end you forget the first half of what was written and go down an endless spiral of confusion. Sure, no movie is without its flaws and i think what bothered me much more with the last jedi over the force awakens(which i would put roughly at prequel level) was the side plots that dont lead anywhere(capain phasma anyone), strong social overtones(free the race animals but lets ignore those slave kids), and the lack of a competent and imposing villain( Hux is a laughing stock that gets thrown around in front of his own men and kylo ren has frequent temper tantrums ie console and helmet smashing)

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2019, 11:42:41 AM »
I think the problem here is that everyone is typing full on essays and by the time you reach the end you forget the first half of what was written and go down an endless spiral of confusion. Sure, no movie is without its flaws and i think what bothered me much more with the last jedi over the force awakens(which i would put roughly at prequel level) was the side plots that dont lead anywhere(capain phasma anyone), strong social overtones(free the race animals but lets ignore those slave kids), and the lack of a competent and imposing villain( Hux is a laughing stock that gets thrown around in front of his own men and kylo ren has frequent temper tantrums ie console and helmet smashing)

I do think the length of posts can contribute to this. But some have very directly quoted and responded to parts while showing they did not read the part they're directly quoting and responding to. So for those instances, it doesn't really fit.

Hux I don't mind I'm fine with him being a joke, Kylo I think is shown to be serious enough but is supposed to be very immature, Phasma though I do feel similarly about I think they really have not used her well. In The Force Awakens her barely mattering, The Last Jedi they do use her more so but also I'm hoping somehow she survived(Her armor is made out of a starship hull, it's Palpatine's Naboo Yacht, though also Finn was able to expose her face with just a riot baton). Phasma is set up to be very competent and one of the best of the First Order compared to Hux who is very inexperienced. But Phasma only gets to shine a bit in The Last Jedi I wish we saw more of her and in The Force Awakens she's criminally underused.

I think a part of the competent villains part will also hopefully be fixed with the Knights of Ren in the next movie, since they're mentioned but not fully explained and are shown and are Dark Siders who followed Snoke and were led by Ren. And are shown to be in intimidating armor with weapons(Similar to Snoke's guards, who were competent but ended up losing). Snoke was competent but like most Star Wars villains, died due to his overconfidence(This is how a good majority of main villains in Star Wars die).

Animals are a bit easier to release into the wild and leave to their own devices, children are not. They need care and aren't capable of fighting people off like the large animals can. But I do think the animal escape could have been condensed a lot. I'm not sure how they could save the children since it would require them dropping them off somewhere safe with people ready to take care of them, bringing them back to the doomed Resistance ships seems really dangerous. Though maybe they could have split up, Finn going back while Rose with the kids takes another ship to find somewhere to drop them off. Or reverse since while Finn is more of a main character Rose was the one who was going to actually shut down the tracker on Snoke's ship. But both had information important to the task so it's who could have explained their part best to the other(Intricate electrical and mechanical details, or the layout of the ship).

EDIT: I do reread things over even after posting and a lot before, I will say if Ink didn't mean that Kylo Ren wasn't bleeding by his comment on him not being blooded I'd believe him if he said such. Blooded does have multiple meanings and we were talking both about him being injured and his experience, and different uses of blooded apply to each. Blooded in combat meaning having had a first experience in combat, or blooded in combat mean someone has drawn their blood. Either those or Ink mean Kylo's blood wasn't important but that's a point I was making is that bloodlines and concepts of genetic superiority and Eugenics don't matter and Kylo is the heir to Vader so I don't think that was the meaning.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 02:50:53 PM by Tolvo »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2019, 12:07:17 PM »
The criminal under-use of Brie Larson is indeed one of the biggest problems I've had with the franchise. TLJ was slightly better than the total waste that was TFA, but not to a significant degree.

Offline Tolvo

Re: Star Wars sequels
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2019, 12:16:01 PM »
I sort of wish they'd focus more on the main cast at times. Sometimes I think certain things are over explained or overshown(Like Rose's sister could have been a much quicker scene and audiences would easily still understand it and Rose's motivation). Though the Original Trilogy wasn't devoid of this. Grand Moff Tarkin who is the actual main villain of A New Hope is barely in it, doesn't meet most of the heroes and only talks to Leia, then just blows up. Vader people associate as the main antagonist because he's in it more and more direct, but Tarkin is actually the one in charge of everything and giving the orders. And he's played by an incredibly famous and respected actor so it's not like he was played by a nobody and wasn't talented. They do get better about this later but I always found it strange how Tarkin is barely in the movie and doesn't even seem to know about Obi Wan or Luke or Han, only Leia.

I do like that they keep Phasma mostly in the armor outside of TLJ where her face is partially seen, I often get annoyed when they have to constantly show the actor/actresses face especially in combat situations when they should have their armor(Though I understand doing this to remind people who they are, and to actually promote the person and show them on screen). I feel like a lot of battles they could have put her in but just didn't, just have her leading the Storm Troopers at the points where they are winning in battles, have her fight alongside Kylo rather than just him leading the Storm Troopers when she is the leader of the Storm Troopers.