What's in the News? 2.0

[Oniya]

I admit that I have not made a study of art theft, but in those stories that do stand out in memory, precious few were committed at gunpoint.

Probably because a bullet hole in that Gauguin would turn a multi-million dollar heist into pocket change.

[Beorning]

You seem to be missing key points while hyper-focusing on specific hypothetical situations.

I apologize :(

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: I understand the need for appropriate response for different kinds of situations. What I'm not sure about is dissolving a local PD - doesn't it decrease the options for an appropriate response? What do you do when you do need the cops ASAP?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-23/video-trans-man-beaten-la-county-sheriff-deputy

To contribute to the conversation- LA cop pulls over a trans person for having their air freshener hung incorrectly, beats them, then insists on a genital inspection.

I don’t really feel all that safe with the police.

This is... messed-up 

I suspect that deputy stopped that person as a retaliation for being flipped off. I wonder if he intended to beat up that person from the start or just exploded on him spontaneuously. In any case, this cop should be fired immediately. There's something seriously wrong in that Sheriff's Department, if they are defending him...

[Regina Minx]

In any case, this cop should be fired immediately. There's something seriously wrong in that Sheriff's Department, if they are defending him...

Cops are almost never, ever fired immediately.

And yes. The LA Sheriff's office has had a troubled history to say the least.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/la-sheriff-department-gangs-alex-villanueva-1234691873/

https://abc7.com/los-angeles-county-board-of-supervisors-sheriffs-department-settlements-excessive-force-lasd/12409453/

https://abc7.com/alex-villanueva-la-county-sheriff-whistleblower-lawsuit-deputy-gangs/12181663/

[TheGlyphstone]

Isn't the LAPD as a whole also known for being really corrupt?

[Regina Minx]

Isn't the LAPD as a whole also known for being really corrupt?

The LA County Sherrif is not the same as LAPD. Los Angeles Police Department works solely in the city of Los Angeles. Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office works in unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County, and they have contracts with some cities that do not have their own police department.

[Azy]

I'm not entirely sure how my thoughts about Stephanie Lazarus, who I repeat investigated art theft as a detective, transformed into a discussion about the violence of drug cartels. I admit that I have not made a study of art theft, but in those stories that do stand out in memory, precious few were committed at gunpoint. And, of course, I'll point out that not all officers are armed. The arming of police is something that varies from country to country. There are places where they have art theft but also unarmed police officers because apparently the thinking is 'why does every cop need to carry a gun?'

It seemed you were making the assumption that officers who investigate certain types of crime don't have to be armed because those types of criminals aren't dangerous.  I only used drug cartels as an example because pretty much everyone thinks of those types as violent and dangerous.  My point was that any criminal can be violent and dangerous, no matter the type of crime they engage in. 

Your own use of the words precious few means it has happened.  That's the thing; it may not be highly common or likely, but when you're walking into a situation where you are dealing with criminals of any type the danger is assuming.  As I said, my friend has participated in drug busts where no shots were fired even though they anticipated it, and when breaking up an illegal gambling game, white collar mind you, he was shot at. 

Yes, you are correct that officers being armed varies from country to country.  Even if they don't have a firearm, they do usually have something to protect themselves with.  Tasers are pretty common.  When used as intended they aren't fatal, but if one gets overzealous it can drift into fatal territory.  And while it's getting difficult to keep them straight because of how many incidents there have been in the past few years, if memory serves me correctly, George Floyd was not killed with a firearm.  He was put into an aggressive hold which was never meant to be used more than a minute or two, and he slowly suffocated to death.     

All officers in the US are armed because in this country guns outnumber people.  A simple traffic stop could get out of hand.  It has happened.   

He agrees that there is a problem.  Some people put on the uniform for a power trip.  He works with a few guys like that.  This country is a mess.  Cops using lethal force when they shouldn't, and all of the mass shootings, it's all interconnected and symptoms of a failing system and a screwed up gun culture.  But as long as suspects can be armed, police officers need to be armed. Art thieves could be armed, because anyone can be armed here in the great USA.       

[Keelan]

It seemed you were making the assumption that officers who investigate certain types of crime don't have to be armed because those types of criminals aren't dangerous.  I only used drug cartels as an example because pretty much everyone thinks of those types as violent and dangerous.  My point was that any criminal can be violent and dangerous, no matter the type of crime they engage in. 

Your own use of the words precious few means it has happened.  That's the thing; it may not be highly common or likely, but when you're walking into a situation where you are dealing with criminals of any type the danger is assuming.  As I said, my friend has participated in drug busts where no shots were fired even though they anticipated it, and when breaking up an illegal gambling game, white collar mind you, he was shot at. 

Yes, you are correct that officers being armed varies from country to country.  Even if they don't have a firearm, they do usually have something to protect themselves with.  Tasers are pretty common.  When used as intended they aren't fatal, but if one gets overzealous it can drift into fatal territory.  And while it's getting difficult to keep them straight because of how many incidents there have been in the past few years, if memory serves me correctly, George Floyd was not killed with a firearm.  He was put into an aggressive hold which was never meant to be used more than a minute or two, and he slowly suffocated to death.     

All officers in the US are armed because in this country guns outnumber people.  A simple traffic stop could get out of hand.  It has happened.   

He agrees that there is a problem.  Some people put on the uniform for a power trip.  He works with a few guys like that.  This country is a mess.  Cops using lethal force when they shouldn't, and all of the mass shootings, it's all interconnected and symptoms of a failing system and a screwed up gun culture.  But as long as suspects can be armed, police officers need to be armed. Art thieves could be armed, because anyone can be armed here in the great USA.       

If you've seen some bodycam footage, then emphasis mine is abundantly apparent. Doesn't even have to involve the suspect; I saw a relatively-viral (weird to describe it that way but it's accurate) video of an officer pull someone over, and 12 minutes into the stop another car comes the other direction close by them, and a guy pops out with an axe and rushes the officer. Cop put 6 rounds into him and he dropped screaming.

Guy wasn't involved with the stop at all; just felt like trying to kill an officer that day, I guess.

People generally don't want to go to jail/prison, and people are ultimately unpredictable, *especially* under fear, anger, or other duress. Maybe the art thief will know the jig is up and fight things in court, maybe the art thief will try and flee thinking he can get away, maybe the art thief will kill themselves because they'd rather die than go to prison...

...or maybe he (or his friends or conspirators) figure they can kill the officers and get away. Shit, maybe they just want to take someone out with them if they can, suicide-by-cop style.

If the approach is 'it's better to have a tool and not need it, than need a tool and not have it', then having your officers be armed with some manner of force-related tool is part of the solution.

[TheGlyphstone]

My general impression is less that having the gun is the problem and more an issue where when all you have training with is a ~~gun~~hammer, everything looks like a ~~target~~nail. Police go through quasi-military training where marksmanship and reaction speed are given a lot more emphasis than de-escalation or threat assessment.

[Al Terego]

A simple traffic stop could get out of hand.  It has happened.

I would argue that a simple traffic stop is way more likely to get out of hand when the cop is armed than when they are not.

My general impression is less that having the gun is the problem and more an issue where when all you have training with is a ~~gun~~hammer, everything looks like a ~~target~~nail. Police go through quasi-military training where marksmanship and reaction speed are given a lot more emphasis than de-escalation or threat assessment.

Police are trained to yell "stop resisting" when beating the snot out of unresisting citizens.

[Azy]

My general impression is less that having the gun is the problem and more an issue where when all you have training with is a ~~gun~~hammer, everything looks like a ~~target~~nail. Police go through quasi-military training where marksmanship and reaction speed are given a lot more emphasis than de-escalation or threat assessment.

I guess it depends on the state, and maybe county, but they go through other training.  Psychology 101 is a required course for a Criminal Justice degree in this state.  Whether or not the students actually take anything away from it and apply it in the job is another matter.  My friend has a taser, and part of the training with that was being hit with it for a personal experience of what it feels like.  Same goes with the pepper spray.  He jokes about how he made up a few curse words in Sanglish that day.  Though I vaguely recall an incident where an officer shot someone and claimed they thought they had grabbed the taser.  My friend said that was absolute bullshit.   

On the first day of my Psychology 101 class the professor asked who was there for Criminal Justice, and then asked them why they wanted to go into that field.  They all answered to put away bad guys.  The professor said that was a common response, and while many don't feel a Psychology course should be a requirement, that response was exactly why.  There is a whole lot more to it than that, but people go in assuming it's going to be like on TV.  They don't show all the paperwork involved, having to document every little detail in case it does get taken to court.  They don't show being put in the middle of two feuding neighbors and having to convince them to put on their big boy and girl panties and stop being assholes to each other.  That's where the underpaid kindergarten teacher feeling comes in. 

It may be a step in the right direction to emphasize the use of de escalation tactics more in training.  Maybe add in a little more Psychology.  But no matter what you're going to have people who abuse power, and those people need to be held accountable.  Another possible idea we've talked about is it being mandatory for filed complaints to go to an impartial state review board or something.  A panel possibly made up of both civil rights activists and internal affairs type people who know the rules and regulations, and know what being in those situations is like.   

[greenknight]

underpaid kindergarten teacher

Underpaid + teacher...as a cop. 
(In my state, at 90% above the national average, teachers still make about 70% of what a cop makes.)

[Azy]

It's not a comment on what teachers are paid.  It's 'I seriously don't get paid enough for this shit' kind of comment. 

[Keelan]

I would have mentioned this one earlier, but I was doing the smart thing and waiting for more details to come out because my bullshit detectors went off. Now that the reporting is what it is, I feel VERY justified in my anger, yet sadly affirmed of my accurate bullshit detecter.

On July 13th, Carlee Russell - a Black woman in Hoover, Alabama - went missing after calling the police about a toddler wandering along on the side of the highway. Police were dispatched and arrived within 5 minutes to find her vehicle, with her phone, Apple watch, and dinner that she'd purchased in the vehicle, but Carlee and the toddler were nowhere in sight.

The local PD, state PD, and federal agencies including the US Secret Service AND FBI immediately began looking for her while this hit national news. They continued to do so for the next 49 hours when Carlee miraculously showed up back at home. She was taken to the hospital and trated for minimal injuries.

The statement she gave to police was that after she'd gotten off the phone with police and had called a family member, a red-haired white man showed up out of the woods claiming to be checking on the toddler, then grabbed her, carried her off, and stuffed her in a tractor-trailer. She was held captive by the red-headed White man, a woman whose face she never saw, and overheard a crying toddler. At one point she attempted to escape, and was recaptured. They refused to tie her hands because "they didn't want to leave marks". She claims that at one point she was blindfolded, stripped naked, and they took pictures of her naked, but did nothing else to her. At another point, she was fed cheese crackers by the mystery woman while said woman played with her hair. She then had another opportunity to escape, succeeded this time, and managed to run all the way home on foot. She has not at this time made another statement.

People began to question the scenario, wondering what the situation was with the mysterious toddler, or expressing doubts about what happened. Backlash against these folks ensued, cries of racism, sexism, misogynoir (the unique combination of racism and sexism that Black women face), and the type of specter of not believing victims that fueled 'Me Too' spewed forth.

And then the police - given the national public interest in the case - gave a statement to the public via a press conference on the 19th:

https://youtu.be/rrmoDc8xOGo?t=158

Now guess the fuck what?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/no-kidnapping-carlee-russell-alabama-hoax-rcna96058

Carlee Russell admitted she did not see a toddler wandering on the side of the highway and lied about being kidnapped in a hoax that set off a nationwide effort to find her, an attorney for the Alabama woman said Monday.

Hoover Police Chief Nicholas C. Derzis read the statement provided by Russell's attorney during a news conference, in which the 25-year-old nursing student said she was not abducted as the nation was led to believe when she disappeared July 13. Russell said she had not left the Hoover area.

She returned home about 49 hours after a call to 911 reporting seeing the child on the interstate.

"My client apologizes for her actions to this community, to the volunteers who were searching for her, to the Hoover Police Department and other agencies as well," the statement said.

The police department is consulting with the district attorney’s office regarding potential criminal charges, according to Derzis.

[Keelan]

The statement she gave to police was that after she'd gotten off the phone with police and had called a family member, a red-haired white man showed up out of the woods claiming to be checking on the toddler, then grabbed her, carried her off, and stuffed her in a tractor-trailer. She was held captive by the red-headed White man, a woman whose face she never saw, and overheard a crying toddler. At one point she attempted to escape, and was recaptured. They refused to tie her hands because "they didn't want to leave marks". She claims that at one point she was blindfolded, stripped naked, and they took pictures of her naked, but did nothing else to her. At another point, she was fed cheese crackers by the mystery woman while said woman played with her hair. She then had another opportunity to escape, succeeded this time, and managed to run all the way home on foot. She has not at this time made another statement.

Self-Correction: I made this first section on Saturday, but saved it as I decided to wait until more info came out. My latter portion of the post indicates she has given a statement through an attorney now.

[TheGlyphstone]

I can't say a good thing, but at least the least bad thing here is that her story unraveled quickly instead of getting dragged out for an entire month like Jussie Smollet's hoax.

[Beorning]

Huh. Is there any explanation as to why she has done this? Was she seeking media attention or something?

[Keelan]

Huh. Is there any explanation as to why she has done this? Was she seeking media attention or something?

Nothing has been confirmed yet, there's only social media speculation. There are two main theories I've seen, and I certainly have my own, but ultimately I don't really care what bullshit justification she has for faking an abduction.

[GloomCookie]

My general impression is less that having the gun is the problem and more an issue where when all you have training with is a ~~gun~~hammer, everything looks like a ~~target~~nail. Police go through quasi-military training where marksmanship and reaction speed are given a lot more emphasis than de-escalation or threat assessment.

I want to point out that a reasonably healthy human being can cross a distance of 10 yards in about 1 second at a full run. Most police engagements according to FBI statistics are 3 to 5 yards. As a police officer, that gives you ~0.5 seconds to react to someone running at you and engaging. The reason police are trained to go for their gun first is because fails to incapacitate a target 40% of the time. If you have the time and guaranteed backup, then you can try the taser, but otherwise if you're alone you go for what will work vs what may work.

I would argue that a simple traffic stop is way more likely to get out of hand when the cop is armed than when they are not.


Police are trained to yell "stop resisting" when beating the snot out of unresisting citizens.

It's not necessarily about whether the cop is armed and more to do with how the motorist responds to commands, often with a racial bias. This is an article about Tyre Nichols death and it brings up this fact, and references an NPR study. As far as shouting "Stop Resisting" I think that's just a negative bias.

[Al Terego]

Thoughts from the people "in the trenches":
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1011667407834959872?lang=en
https://twitter.com/KatieSponsler/status/1619341593827487744?lang=en

[Beorning]

Both make very good points!

[Al Terego]

Sorry, can't edit, thus another post.

While looking for more material, I got pointer to techdirt.
Strong opinions, but they seem to be well sourced.
https://www.techdirt.com/tag/police/

[Chulanowa]

I apologize :(

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: I understand the need for appropriate response for different kinds of situations. What I'm not sure about is dissolving a local PD - doesn't it decrease the options for an appropriate response? What do you do when you do need the cops ASAP?

I'm not sure about Poland, but in the US there are surprisingly few occasions where you might need an army in your town. Which is what our police have become.

[Azy]

My area has the opposite problem.  We fall under state police jurisdiction because we're such a rural county.  A few of the larger small towns have one officer, but those guys usually end up being power trip dicks who gives a ticket for going 38 in a 35.  Of course racism isn't really a huge issue when dealing with the police around here because 95% of the population here is white.  The other 5% lives in larger towns with a bigger police force.   

When we need the cops they could be an hour away, so people around here tend to take care of things themselves.  Pretty much everyone owns at least one shotgun, and people don't get mad, they get even.  We could actually use more of a police presence around here to deal with the crime instead of you did x to me so me and my buddies will do y to you. 

[Al Terego]

Select quotes from an SFGate article (July 3):

Since the start of 2023, according to Bloomberg’s Billionaires Index, the Tesla and SpaceX (and up until recently, Twitter) chief executive’s net worth has grown by more than $96 billion.  Musk is now worth $234 billion; he has gained $530 million a day in 2023 [...] Mark Zuckerberg also won big in 2023, snagging nearly $59 billion more this year.

Rich people in and out of tech are having a great time; Bloomberg notes that this six-month stretch has been the best time for billionaires since the second half of 2020. Meanwhile, survey after survey has shown that a staggering number of Americans are experiencing stress over their finances — no doubt heightened by record inflation and, now, the Supreme Court's overruling President Joe Biden’s student loan debt forgiveness plan.

[Vekseid]

Faith in capitalism is falling in the US.

I have full faith it will get worse. The situation is not sustainable, and to quote Warren Buffet, an unsustainable process will eventually cease.