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Author Topic: U.S. Primaries, 2020  (Read 1127 times)

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Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2020, 12:13:31 AM »
Something that has to be understood by everyone is that this election is becoming based more and more on fear.  I don't mean by trump's followers, but by his opposition.  Democrats and sympathetic independents are not only seeing Trumps continuing assault on stability and sanity, but the approach of deep uncertainty in the Coronavirus pandemic.  Many voters who may have gone for Sanders are now simply overwhelmed with concern about the immediate future, and hoping for the stability of a moderate candidate like Biden who will return things to the status quo of the Obama years.  Considerations like climate change, Medicare for all, and universal basic income pale when your immediate health and livelihood are threatened by the incompetence of your current leadership.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2020, 06:14:23 PM »
Something that has to be understood by everyone is that this election is becoming based more and more on fear.  I don't mean by trump's followers, but by his opposition.  Democrats and sympathetic independents are not only seeing Trumps continuing assault on stability and sanity, but the approach of deep uncertainty in the Coronavirus pandemic.  Many voters who may have gone for Sanders are now simply overwhelmed with concern about the immediate future, and hoping for the stability of a moderate candidate like Biden who will return things to the status quo of the Obama years.  Considerations like climate change, Medicare for all, and universal basic income pale when your immediate health and livelihood are threatened by the incompetence of your current leadership.

I'm going to have to agree with this. When the last election came, people in general wanted somebody different then the status quo. Trump fitted that to the mark. The way the Coronoavirus is being handled by our government is going to effect how people go to the polls too. If somebody thinks Trump handled this fine then they are going to be more loyal then ever, or if they think he was the worst person to have been in office when this could have hit they will literally take anything else in hopes for a better tomorrow.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2020, 10:41:53 PM »
I will point out one thing that many people don't realize, though:  Biden is a recovered/ing stutterer.  Mr. Oniya also has a mild speech impediment, so this is something I see on a daily basis.  A lot of the flubs that have been hyped by the pundits are more typical of speech issues than they are of cognitive decline.

Being a former stutterer might help the optics.  Just as an example, there was the whole 'Super Tuesday/Thursday' mixup.  Being a stutterer would help convince people that he just mixed up the day he was saying and that he didn't actually confuse the day.

On the other hand, his tendency to go off into random statements (Cornpop, hairy legs turning blonde in the sun, lying dog-faced pony soldier), would imply otherwise.

Something that has to be understood by everyone is that this election is becoming based more and more on fear.  I don't mean by trump's followers, but by his opposition.  Democrats and sympathetic independents are not only seeing Trumps continuing assault on stability and sanity, but the approach of deep uncertainty in the Coronavirus pandemic.  Many voters who may have gone for Sanders are now simply overwhelmed with concern about the immediate future, and hoping for the stability of a moderate candidate like Biden who will return things to the status quo of the Obama years.  Considerations like climate change, Medicare for all, and universal basic income pale when your immediate health and livelihood are threatened by the incompetence of your current leadership.

Michael Tracey has basically pointed this out on Twitter.  A few relevant observations he's made:

1: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1237800414101286915
2: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1237853030579462145
3: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1237857333620772864
4: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1237859205794516992
5: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1237868546945724419

In short, the Democrats, and the media, have only themselves to blame for the rise of Joe Biden.  They've spent the last three years screaming over every tweet, blatantly blasting apart any context for any statement Trump made (such as the 'very fine people on both sides' remark), and emotionally harassing anyone who dared express an opinion other than what was accepted as 'proper' orthodoxy.  The American electorate is awash in a sea of turbulence and chaos, one that I would point out did not exist prior to the election of Donald Trump. 

To sum up: if the boat is being rocked, people want someone who will stop the rocking.  And, as it would turn out, nominating a man who wants to blow up the entire US health insurance industry, and fracking, and our border security apparatus, is not someone who will stop the rocking.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2020, 03:40:11 AM »
Quote
To sum up: if the boat is being rocked, people want someone who will stop the rocking.  And, as it would turn out, nominating a man who wants to blow up the entire US health insurance industry, and fracking, and our border security apparatus, is not someone who will stop the rocking.

And yet, the boat must be rocked, to some point, regardless, if we are to have any progress whatsoever.

"Look at the facts of the world. You see a continual and progressive triumph of the right. I do not pretend to understand the moral universe, the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. But from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.

Things refuse to be mismanaged long. Jefferson trembled when he thought of slavery and remembered that God is just. Ere long all America will tremble."


--Theodore Parker, Unitarian Minister and Abolitionist, 1810


In the 1850s, John Brown was an abolitionist...but not only that, he broke bread with escaped slaves and spoke with them as equals.  Most Northern abolitionists didn't consider African-Americans their equals, they just wanted slavery abolished.  They weren't the far left of their time, the radicals--they were just liberals.  Of course, like today, the conservatives of the time considered everyone left of them radicals.  But the long arc of history has proven John Brown was right.  It was much the same with Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois...and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.  Pairs of liberals and radicals...differing in how soon they wanted change to come to pass, and how they'd achieve it.

Sooner or later, what the radicals propose becomes the norm.  The question is how soon, or how late, we arrive at it.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2020, 12:29:25 PM »
In others news, looks like Tulsi Gabbard finally threw in the towel.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2020, 12:49:11 PM »
Can someone explain to me why it is that she never got more traction?  She's a woman.  She's a minority.  She served in the military, and is of the popular Democrat opinion that spending all this time and money in regime changes that won't ultimately take should not be a focus of the American government.  The explanation I hear most is that she crossed Hillary Clinton and refused to vote to impeach, thus her own establishment blacklisted her.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2020, 01:13:40 PM »
Can someone explain to me why it is that she never got more traction?  She's a woman.  She's a minority.  She served in the military, and is of the popular Democrat opinion that spending all this time and money in regime changes that won't ultimately take should not be a focus of the American government.  The explanation I hear most is that she crossed Hillary Clinton and refused to vote to impeach, thus her own establishment blacklisted her.

She had a valid reason to not vote in the impeachment. Potentially running against the President is a conflict of interest. I can relate. Not sure if I would have done it and yeah she definitely paid for it within her own party.

Honestly I think that anyone over 65 in the party leadership needs to retire/step down.. but I also think it should be like that in the GOP.... so maybe we need to broom out pretty much the top leaders in both parties.

Offline Oniya

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2020, 01:36:03 PM »
Pandering to FOX News is what kicked her off of my 'potential President' list.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2020, 01:46:25 PM »
Pandering to FOX News is what kicked her off of my 'potential President' list.

Missed that one.. what did she do?

And to be honest, she wasn't on my list either.

Offline Missy

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2020, 01:47:05 PM »
She had a valid reason to not vote in the impeachment. Potentially running against the President is a conflict of interest. I can relate. Not sure if I would have done it and yeah she definitely paid for it within her own party.

Honestly I think that anyone over 65 in the party leadership needs to retire/step down.. but I also think it should be like that in the GOP.... so maybe we need to broom out pretty much the top leaders in both parties.

well, yeah, the old guard has gotten, well, old.

To be honest it's not just getting in new blood to represent the rising (and not the waning) generation, but also some significant restructuring of the system that's needed. Instituting ranked voting and adjusting to accommodate something more liberal than the restrictive two dominant party system, opening the gates to independents and taking money and lobbyists out of politics altogether. Assuring the very wealthy have the very same amount of "speech" as the very poor (preferably by just prohibiting monetary involvement in some way, but if ya gotta have yer money is speech bullshit then maybe you should donate some of that speech to the rest of us then son, I mean it doesn't have to be all of it, just enough to make sure everyone has equal speech so they can all be created equal, ya?).

That said of course, you are correct, just removing the old guard like Lyndsey Graham and Mitch McCockell would make a huge change. The truth is for the moment a goodly portion of the dominant ideology of sitting congresspersons doesn't reflect the ideals of the common citizen. Only the very fringe of conservative elements are really homophobic anymore and it's more than fair to compare the religious fundamentalists and alt-rightists as a special class all their own distinct from the ordinary Republican. A good number of Republicans are open minded enough to be accepting and supportive to most degrees of Trans*, but with McCain gone they have few Republican congressfolk who will represent the true fullness of their views, furthermore they often won't vote Democrat because they don't feel the Dems represent their ideology significantly enough either (normally this is the point where I would make remarks as to the strictures and limitations of America's Dominant Party System, but really if these points don't make that clear I'm not sure if any further elaboration ever will). Regardless though, basically yeah, the current establishment is not sufficiently representative of the average citizen except that you restrict your calculation to persons of certain more advanced age groups.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2020, 02:10:22 PM »
well, yeah, the old guard has gotten, well, old.

To be honest it's not just getting in new blood to represent the rising (and not the waning) generation, but also some significant restructuring of the system that's needed. Instituting ranked voting and adjusting to accommodate something more liberal than the restrictive two dominant party system, opening the gates to independents and taking money and lobbyists out of politics altogether. Assuring the very wealthy have the very same amount of "speech" as the very poor (preferably by just prohibiting monetary involvement in some way, but if ya gotta have yer money is speech bullshit then maybe you should donate some of that speech to the rest of us then son, I mean it doesn't have to be all of it, just enough to make sure everyone has equal speech so they can all be created equal, ya?).

That said of course, you are correct, just removing the old guard like Lyndsey Graham and Mitch McCockell would make a huge change. The truth is for the moment a goodly portion of the dominant ideology of sitting congresspersons doesn't reflect the ideals of the common citizen. Only the very fringe of conservative elements are really homophobic anymore and it's more than fair to compare the religious fundamentalists and alt-rightists as a special class all their own distinct from the ordinary Republican. A good number of Republicans are open minded enough to be accepting and supportive to most degrees of Trans*, but with McCain gone they have few Republican congressfolk who will represent the true fullness of their views, furthermore they often won't vote Democrat because they don't feel the Dems represent their ideology significantly enough either (normally this is the point where I would make remarks as to the strictures and limitations of America's Dominant Party System, but really if these points don't make that clear I'm not sure if any further elaboration ever will). Regardless though, basically yeah, the current establishment is not sufficiently representative of the average citizen except that you restrict your calculation to persons of certain more advanced age groups.

My brother ran for office when he was 50. I won't say which or where, but for years it was 'You need to get him to run for office.' at various state level GOP events. My brother did.. for governor, but apparently they (the 'old guard') didn't like that he didn't consult them for that first. Suddenly it was 'He backs democratic judges'  (he's a trial lawyer, who would you support the guy you know and have worked well or the FNG who has no history with you') and we had a shifty 'county exec' (Who THAT year got busted for prositituion,.. he paid her by check and then cancelled it.. she turned him in. pair of idiots. The weird thing was he was my dad's company Chaplin in the reserves for YEARS) and finally a 'friend' who promised he wouldn't run.. did (after plagarisizing half my brother's opening statement).

Then when he got dropped out, they tried to convince him to run for a seat in the legislature where: A. No republican had held since 1970  B. The lady in it had run unopposed in the last 6 times because she WAS the district after her husband (who held it 5 terms before her) died.

A lot of the fall out from what I saw from behind his desk was that he was a 'new comer' (despite being in the party since he could vote). Most of the party leadership I met, before and after, were involved in the party apparatus since Watergate.

I just think they got in after the fall out and never stepped down. Looking over the leadership and such.. I see lot of a guys who were internets, worker bees before Watergate and no one younger than the mid 50s seems to be getting in.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2020, 02:56:38 PM »
Pandering to FOX News is what kicked her off of my 'potential President' list.

Pander to FOX how, precisely?  I'm with Callie on that one in that I'm not sure what she did, other than apparently going on FOX.

To be honest it's not just getting in new blood to represent the rising (and not the waning) generation, but also some significant restructuring of the system that's needed. Instituting ranked voting and adjusting to accommodate something more liberal than the restrictive two dominant party system, opening the gates to independents and taking money and lobbyists out of politics altogether. Assuring the very wealthy have the very same amount of "speech" as the very poor (preferably by just prohibiting monetary involvement in some way, but if ya gotta have yer money is speech bullshit then maybe you should donate some of that speech to the rest of us then son, I mean it doesn't have to be all of it, just enough to make sure everyone has equal speech so they can all be created equal, ya?).

Ranked voting is already kind of a thing in caucuses - the idea being that everyone votes in the first round, and certain people who don't make cut-offs, their voters are freed up again to vote in the second round, and that this goes until all the delegates in the caucus are distributed - the major problem with caucuses is that you have to belong to the party in order to vote, which excludes independents.

The entire 'party' system needs to go.  All of it.  No Democrats, no Republicans, just people from their district/state representing the people who voted for them, not some national-level organization that has its own agenda separate from that of the voters.  The party system today, as best as I can understand it, is solely a means by which the organizations themselves can exert influence on the government - perhaps the proto-example of a special interest group, which also shouldn't exist.  This is one of the major issues of the current political era, which is the increasing number of people who are single-issue voters.  Abortion.  Healthcare.  Environmental stewardship.  Improving schools.  People essentially look for someone who agrees with them on their particular political button, and then either rationalize away or convince themselves of the position the candidate holds on any position with which they personally disagree.

Offline Oniya

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2020, 04:18:28 PM »
Most of her appearances involved talking-points that sounded like they came from Trump's briefing rooms.  This is my personal reason for not considering her as someone to vote for.

Offline Oniya

Re: U.S. Primaries, 2020
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2020, 04:23:45 PM »
I'm also going to add that when she first entered the race, I was actually excited to see it, since she'd impressed me during the 2016 election season.  I think we need some younger voices in government, and I do feel a little let down that we're down to a choice between 'two old white guys', even if both of them are substantially better than the orange guy.