What's in the News? 2.0

[Mechelle]

On a more light-hearted note, a school librarian is my new hero. Boris Johnson was giving  a press conference in a school in front of a bookcase, where the librarian had artfully arranged books such as "Fahrenheit 451", "The Fool" , "The Subtle Knife",  and "Resistance"  behind his head. There may be other appropriate titles too, which I haven't spotted.

[Sara Nilsson]

Betrayed, Glass Houses, Crisis Point, The Twits, and my fav: Guards Guards!! By Pratchett. About installing a puppet king, and the theme being how important it is to hold people to account.

oh and just saw Oliver Twist too.

[Sara Nilsson]

Exodus by Julie Bertagna: set in a dystopian future in which global warming has caused the oceans to rise and the heroes are dispossessed migrants desperately seeking refuge by boat.

according to twitter. Thats another one.

[Mechelle]

Oh, yes, I had seen "The Twits" but forgot to mention it. That librarian worked very hard.

[Oniya]

Brighton Rock by Graham Greene, just off frame to the left.  Wasn't there some incident involving Brighton (and Johnson specifically?)

[Mechelle]

I used to live in Brighton, and I can't think of anything specific for Boris Johnson, but the city was famous for men taking their lovers for a "dirty weekend" which sounds like him.
I have spotted the Games of Thrones books now, upon which he  may have modelled his route to power.

[Haibane]

I think a better way at looking at this is that the police, and not just in the USA, are very selective in what laws to enforce. Any restrictions on firearms ownership is not going to be enforced on privileged social groups. That 17 year old mass shooter was even prematurely thanked by police officers and given free water bottles, whereas Philando Castile and countless other African-Americans were shot in unjustified manners.

Obviously a lot needs to change. I think we're all agreed that the police forces in many countries, but the USA specifically, lack effective training and employ people that a half-decent psychiatric review would disbar instantly from carrying a gun behind a badge. There needs to be a dramatic shift of political and social mindset but any body of citizens deserves that effort on their collective behalf.

TheGlyphstone makes well the point I was trying to but did so a lot less well, which is that any number of armed militiamen when faced with an actual oppressive Federal government would make absolutely no difference at all and in fact would make things a lot worse because other gun-totin' dudes in favour of the government would oppose them and then you get what's called a civil war. The whole militia argument is nonsense.

This is the scenario that frightens me most right now, especially after the Kenosha incident - that a bunch of right-wing militiamen clash with a bunch of left-wing ones and some fuckwit pulls a trigger.

[Fox Lokison]

Obviously a lot needs to change. I think we're all agreed that the police forces in many countries, but the USA specifically, lack effective training and employ people that a half-decent psychiatric review would disbar instantly from carrying a gun behind a badge. There needs to be a dramatic shift of political and social mindset but any body of citizens deserves that effort on their collective behalf.

TheGlyphstone makes well the point I was trying to but did so a lot less well, which is that any number of armed militiamen when faced with an actual oppressive Federal government would make absolutely no difference at all and in fact would make things a lot worse because other gun-totin' dudes in favour of the government would oppose them and then you get what's called a civil war. The whole militia argument is nonsense.

This is the scenario that frightens me most right now, especially after the Kenosha incident - that a bunch of right-wing militiamen clash with a bunch of left-wing ones and some fuckwit pulls a trigger.

So what's your solution? Because the government is backing the right wing militias. The same politicians that will commend a young cis white dude for carrying and defending himself will say a black man was a threat for literally any reason to justify their death at police hands. Left wing militias don't solve anything. Violence begets more violence. But given the situation, I'm failing to see any effective method of disarming everyone, and especially failing to see a situation where vulnerable minorities are protected by said disarming.

[Skynet]

Obviously a lot needs to change. I think we're all agreed that the police forces in many countries, but the USA specifically, lack effective training and employ people that a half-decent psychiatric review would disbar instantly from carrying a gun behind a badge. There needs to be a dramatic shift of political and social mindset but any body of citizens deserves that effort on their collective behalf.

TheGlyphstone makes well the point I was trying to but did so a lot less well, which is that any number of armed militiamen when faced with an actual oppressive Federal government would make absolutely no difference at all and in fact would make things a lot worse because other gun-totin' dudes in favour of the government would oppose them and then you get what's called a civil war. The whole militia argument is nonsense.

This is the scenario that frightens me most right now, especially after the Kenosha incident - that a bunch of right-wing militiamen clash with a bunch of left-wing ones and some fuckwit pulls a trigger.

Left-wing militias aren't really a thing in the United States; antifa groups overall don't come from backgrounds which ample access to gun ranges and tracks of land in the wilderness to train upon. My argument is more that even if it's a lost cause, the presence of firearms among an oppressed class is better than having none at all. The  Black Panthers were ultimately defeated, but for a time they did genuinely do good things for the community. They actually reduced the death rates of unarmed black people in California by preventing racist police from acting with impunity. They chased out drug dealers in their neighborhoods and held free school lunch programs that helped feed a lot of poor families. Many of these same police officers then tainted the food supplies with urine, but the whole "what difference does it make, let's ban all guns even knowing that it will affect minorities first and disproportionately" ultimately plays into the hands of the right-wing who do want to make America more fascist and all-white.

But in the long run, the Black Panthers were successful in other ways. They helped train members of the American Indian Movement who brought to light terrible living conditions on reservations via the Wounded Knee Incident.

The thing to keep in mind is that things are "already worse." Philando Castile was a law-abiding gun owner who was shot, and in fact his "perfect victim" status woke up the minds of a lot of NRA members who quit the organization in disgust. Now after failing to ban bump stocks and an incoming lawsuit from the New York attorney general over misappropriated funds, said organization is in some pretty deep hot water and may lose a lot of their political power.

If firearms owned by Castile was banned, then even many liberals would be doing the "he was no angel" or "if only he didn't have a gun" routine which would thus mute this watershed moment for a lot of people.

At the end of things, we shouldn't take action to disarm the powerless and instead focus on what we can do to restrict the abuses of power among those with power.

[Haibane]

So what's your solution? Because the government is backing the right wing militias. The same politicians that will commend a young cis white dude for carrying and defending himself will say a black man was a threat for literally any reason to justify their death at police hands. Left wing militias don't solve anything. Violence begets more violence. But given the situation, I'm failing to see any effective method of disarming everyone, and especially failing to see a situation where vulnerable minorities are protected by said disarming.

The solution is a government that doesn't back right wing militias or white supremacists and begins a programme to shame them and discredit them. Kenosha, in its tragic way is an excellent start. We saw there what a civilian armed with a rifle does when he thinks its okay to take the law into his own hands. That incident is excellent material to start a movement to end armed civilian groups.

A respected responsible government should see this and act on it.

As for effective disarming methods, you need to amend the constitution. The wording of it is already vague and open to interpretation. A resolute government backed by both houses and enough state officials should be able to make effective steps. I listed possible methods earlier.

Also education against gun ownership. Alternative methods of conflict resolution. There are dozens of ways to approach the problem.

[Skynet]

The solution is a government that doesn't back right wing militias or white supremacists and begins a programme to shame them and discredit them. Kenosha, in its tragic way is an excellent start. We saw there what a civilian armed with a rifle does when he thinks its okay to take the law into his own hands. That incident is excellent material to start a movement to end armed civilian groups.

Probably not a good idea to do this right now when the USA has police forces killing said civilians at a rate far too high.

For now, dismantling white supremacy takes precedence, and will be a much longer road before any such laws can be truly justly applied; this is a process that will take generations at least. And even then that doesn't get into the factor of other forms of inequality, economic and otherwise, that can persist even absent of said white supremacy. Sex workers, undocumented immigrants, and other groups still don't have the aid of the police or can call upon them when injustice is done to them. Firearms and self-defense must be a legitimate alternative for them until complete and total police reform is well and truly achieved.

But this threatens to dominate the conversation and it seems others may wish to move on. I already have a rather detailed thread for gun rights in a US context here:

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=293312.0

[Skynet]

PS For sex workers more US-centric articles on why said groups can't rely upon police protection may be in order.

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/2/20692327/sex-work-decriminalization-prostitution-new-york-dc
https://www.hrw.org/report/2012/07/19/sex-workers-risk/condoms-evidence-prostitution-four-us-cities
https://elischolar.library.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1084&context=ysphtdl

[TheGlyphstone]

It would, indeed, be a work of at least a generation, if not more. And considering we can't manage to hold our course for more than eight years without violent whiplash, i've little hope in success on that front.

[Haibane]

Apparently, Jacob Blake is handcuffed to his hospital bed, his family are saying. Since he has a spinal cord that's been broken, there's clearly a significant risk of him jumping out of bed and running out of the hospital.

What is wrong with the police in the USA? Have those plain clothes Feds all been injecting them with a cocktail of Trump racist-stupidity drugs?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621

[Iniquitous]

Apparently, Jacob Blake is handcuffed to his hospital bed, his family are saying. Since he has a spinal cord that's been broken, there's clearly a significant risk of him jumping out of bed and running out of the hospital.

What is wrong with the police in the USA? Have those plain clothes Feds all been injecting them with a cocktail of Trump racist-stupidity drugs?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621

It is pretty much standard practice to restrain inmates/prisoners via shackles/handcuffs to the railing of hospital beds when they are in the hospital. They do not take what injury/reason the person is in the hospital into account.   This isn't something that is just being done to Mr. Blake and I would hazard a guess and say it is not a matter of him running they are worried about but rather him attacking someone.  And before anyone decides to jump down my throat - I am not condoning anything. Simply stating it is common practice and the reasoning they are very likely using.

[ShadowFox89]

It is pretty much standard practice to restrain inmates/prisoners via shackles/handcuffs to the railing of hospital beds when they are in the hospital. They do not take what injury/reason the person is in the hospital into account.   This isn't something that is just being done to Mr. Blake and I would hazard a guess and say it is not a matter of him running they are worried about but rather him attacking someone.  And before anyone decides to jump down my throat - I am not condoning anything. Simply stating it is common practice and the reasoning they are very likely using.

He's paralyzed from the waist down and has to be turned regularly to prevent problems. He's not in any way a risk of running. Because he literally cannot run.

[Iniquitous]

He's paralyzed from the waist down and has to be turned regularly to prevent problems. He's not in any way a risk of running. Because he literally cannot run.

Apparently you stopped reading my comment before you got to the part where I said

I would hazard a guess and say it is not a matter of him running they are worried about but rather him attacking someone.

But hey, jump down my throat because I gave an answer that you don't like and ignore the fact I said I didn't condone it and to NOT JUMP DOWN MY THROAT.

[TheGlyphstone]

What would they be charging him with? Bullet theft, by way of his spinal cord?

[Iniquitous]

What would they be charging him with? Bullet theft, by way of his spinal cord?

If what has been reported by the Wisconsin AG is true- resisting arrest as Mr. Blake had a warrant out for his arrest.  I cannot recall fully if it is child support related but I want to say it was.  There is also the report from the Wisconsin AG that stated they found a knife in his vehicle on the floorboard on the driver's side and it seems they are going to make the case that he was going for it when the cop shot him.

I don't agree with him being shot.  I especially do not agree with him being shot 7 damn times.  I am a firm believer in cops using other less violent methods to restrain people and only using guns when their lives are in danger.  As close as the cop was to Mr. Blake, he could have easily tried another method to restrain him and if he absolutely had to use the gun then he could have aimed for a leg.  I understand cops are trained to shoot for center mass because it is the largest target, but I feel like he could have aimed for a knee that close to him.

The point I am making is they are not going to break protocol on a prisoner in custody just because he can't walk/run.  It is protocol.  You follow protocol unless told not to.  If you don't and something happens, it's your ass on the line.

[TheGlyphstone]

If what has been reported by the Wisconsin AG is true- resisting arrest as Mr. Blake had a warrant out for his arrest.  I cannot recall fully if it is child support related but I want to say it was.  There is also the report from the Wisconsin AG that stated they found a knife in his vehicle on the floorboard on the driver's side and it seems they are going to make the case that he was going for it when the cop shot him.

I don't agree with him being shot.  I especially do not agree with him being shot 7 damn times.  I am a firm believer in cops using other less violent methods to restrain people and only using guns when their lives are in danger.  As close as the cop was to Mr. Blake, he could have easily tried another method to restrain him and if he absolutely had to use the gun then he could have aimed for a leg.  I understand cops are trained to shoot for center mass because it is the largest target, but I feel like he could have aimed for a knee that close to him.

The point I am making is they are not going to break protocol on a prisoner in custody just because he can't walk/run.  It is protocol.  You follow protocol unless told not to.  If you don't and something happens, it's your ass on the line.

Procedure I can understand. I think they really botched the optics on this though - you can override procedure with cover from above sometimes.

[Iniquitous]

They did botch this six ways from Sunday and it is going to be hard for them to make any kind of case going forward.  Even if Mr. Blake was being arrested and even if he was going for a knife in his vehicle, this whole situation looks wrong (and in my opinion was handled wrong).

I seen something somewhere that said police academy should be 4 years instead of 6 weeks - and I agree with this.  I think every potential police officer should have to spend those 4 years learning the law, learning how to deescalate, learning how to use non-lethal measures, and when to use lethal force as well as 4 years of psychology.

[TheGlyphstone]

It's that short? Thats even less than I realized. Army boot camp is a minimum of 10 weeks...

[ShadowFox89]

Looks like the felony warrant against Blake has been vacated, he's been uncuffed, and the officers removed from his room. Sorry I don't have a source on hand, currently heading to bed and it popped up on my local news feed.

[Haibane]

The fact that Sheskey shot him seven times is the key here. That was clearly panic. Sheskey didn't know what to do so he pulled the trigger, then blind panic kicked in and pulled it repeatedly. That is a pretty clear indication of lack of proper training. Blake was resisting arrest, yes, but the fact that Sheskey had his hands on his shirt shows (as others have pointed out) that he could have used a less lethal means of restraint.

The knife in the car was found later. There is no defence in saying Blake was going for a weapon as the police didn't know at that point a weapon was there. You can't shoot a main entering a car on the assumption there might be a weapon in the car.

And why the heck has a judge ruled that there must be a month's delay in extraditing Kyle Rittenhouse from Illinois to Wisconsin? And what the hell was a 17 year old youth armed with a semi-automatic rifle who lived in Illinois doing at a demonstration in another state? Defending businesses? No, that's the job of the police, and if the police cannot do that job then its not a civilian's duty to help them, its the chief of police's job to make changes (more cops, better training, more efficient methods) to correct any shortcomings. Surely carrying a gun to defend your own home and livelihood is one thing, but there can be no valid argument to try and protect the businesses of people in a neighbouring state. The kid must go to prison for life.

[Haibane]

Sorry, I meant to type "You can't justify shooting a main entering a car on the assumption there might be a weapon in the car."