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Author Topic: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz  (Read 4674 times)

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Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2017, 08:30:01 AM »
Quote
What I AM arguing is that it is 100% expected to be used if a person is a racist. If a person is not a racist, they still might use the word that PewDiePie did in the way that he did. But it is unexpected. And unexpected means improbable.
(I'm not sure how to put a person's name in the quote)

Still, I agree to an extent that if someone uses a racially-charged word then it out to be looked at a bit more closely, because it is a potentially offensive choice. But then I think that people need to be open to the idea that using the word equally doesn't mean a racist.

Yeah, It's unexpected to use that word, but... does that matter? I might be missing the point so feel free to spell it out for me. It's improbable, but he said it in a spur of the moment situation - and immediately corrected it with a... less offensive swear, I guess?

Offline Regina Minx

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2017, 08:37:20 AM »
Yeah, It's unexpected to use that word, but... does that matter? I might be missing the point so feel free to spell it out for me.

Yes, it does matter. It means that the theory ~h ("PewDiePie is not a racist") becomes less likely. Because you don't expect non-racist people to say shit like that. If we encounter unexpected evidence, we must adjust our assessment of a theory's probability accordingly.

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2017, 08:43:53 AM »
Yes, it does matter. It means that the theory ~h ("PewDiePie is not a racist") becomes less likely. Because you don't expect non-racist people to say shit like that. If we encounter unexpected evidence, we must adjust our assessment of a theory's probability accordingly.
Ah right, I get it now.

I understand that your probability statistics are sound, so I can't really argue with them at base value - but I would say that it's barely over 50% if I'm reading them right. So on balance there isn't much either way.

I think that statistics are also a bit ambiguous at the best if times - you'll find many statistics saying different things for the same issue, and I'm not sure it's right to judge everyone on one statistic. But it doesn't really matter.

Honestly I don't expect anything from people. Vocab changes all the rime, and on the internet people often say things they wouldn't in real life, that's the effect of the internet. At the end of the day i don't think he's racist and to be honest I don't think a word is racist. It has historical baggage, but that's it.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #78 on: September 18, 2017, 08:51:20 AM »
I understand that your probability statistics are sound, so I can't really argue with them at base value - but I would say that it's barely over 50% if I'm reading them right. So on balance there isn't much either way.

You do read it right. But what I made very clear when I was making the argument is that I was making the argument as far in favor of PewDiePie as I was willing to go. I put my thumb on the scale in PewDiePie's favor. And I still could not reasonably come to the conclusion that he was probably not a racist. My 56% represents my personal "best case scenario." Best case for PewDiePie within the bounds of the argument I outlined. I actually think the real probability is much less than that, not only because of this weighting in his favor but because of the other incidents I couldn't assess because of the Wall Street Journal's paywall.

Would I vote to convict a person of murder on a 56% probability that they did it? No. But for purposes of internet discussion, I'm comfortable with the limited information and provisional conclusion that I've reached.

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #79 on: September 18, 2017, 09:03:00 AM »
That's fair enough, I guess it's a case of agreeing to disagree on it. I believe that words are typically tied too close to emotions and knee-jerk reactions overall - not just in terms of potentially-racist ones. Words can be hurtful, But they can equally just be poorly-chosen, which I think is the case most of the time.

I see that your stats say otherwise, but again, stats have notorious issues with reliability and validity so it's not changing my mind... just like my belief isn't changing your mind ^^;

Offline Regina Minx

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2017, 09:13:32 AM »
That's fair enough, I guess it's a case of agreeing to disagree on it. I believe that words are typically tied too close to emotions and knee-jerk reactions overall - not just in terms of potentially-racist ones. Words can be hurtful, But they can equally just be poorly-chosen, which I think is the case most of the time.

I see that your stats say otherwise, but again, stats have notorious issues with reliability and validity so it's not changing my mind... just like my belief isn't changing your mind ^^;

I disagree to agree to disagree. Because I think I've just identified a contradiction in your thinking.

When I said that using a racial slur is unexpected on the theory that a person is not a racist, I said that that means improbable. You agreed with me on that point, which means that you agree that P(racial slur|~h) (the probability that a non-racist person would use a racial slur) is less than 50%. That must be what you agreed to earlier, because, again, you agreed that it is unexpected. And unexpected MEANS improbable in this case.

But then in your most recent post, you said the exact opposite. You said that most of the time when people use poorly-chosen words (and let's limit ourselves to racial slurs in this case), it doesn't mean that they're racist. Thus, you are now saying that P(racial slur|~h) is greater than 50%.

You cannot simultaneously believe that it is improbable for a non-racist person to use a racial slur while at the same time believing that it is probable for a non-racist person to use a racial slur.

So let me ask you to clarify this contradiction that I think I see. Do you think that it's improbable that a non-racist person would use a racial slur? I'm not asking you exactly HOW improbable you think it is. Just whether or not you think it's more than 50% likely that a non-racial person would use a racial slur?

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2017, 09:17:29 AM »
I think in real life it's less likely for racist words to be used by everyone - but online people's inhibitions can fly out the window, so such words become more common and their meaning becomes almost meaningless. Whether that's right or wrong is by-the-bye.

Sorry for confusion, I think that settles it?

Offline Regina Minx

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2017, 09:41:03 AM »
I think in real life it's less likely for racist words to be used by everyone - but online people's inhibitions can fly out the window, so such words become more common and their meaning becomes almost meaningless. Whether that's right or wrong is by-the-bye.

Sorry for confusion, I think that settles it?

Ahh. I understand. You are saying that, "In the real world, yes, it is unlikely that a non-racist person would use a racial slur. Online behavior, however, is different and therefore it might be probable that a non-racist person would use racist language."

Personally, I think that my allowing that there was a 40% chance that a non-racist person would do the 'kill the jews' thing that PewDiePie did and a 35% chance that a non-racist person would use a racial slur the way he did already 'baked in' into my assessment of the evidence. Like I said, I allowed that there was a 40% chance that a non-racist person would do the 'kill all the jews' thing, and I lumped together proposed explanations (shock tactics, joking, ignorance of history). That list was not meant to be exhaustive. I allow "general internet dickwadery" to account for some of that 40% probability space.

In essence: I was already accounting for the very objection you raise, and it still doesn't change my reasoning. You are essentially arguing that P(e|~h) is higher than what I take it to be. I personally can't see the need to be more generous than 40% and 35%, but I now understand the source of the disagreement.

Offline Cognitive BrainfartTopic starter

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2017, 09:44:54 AM »
From talking about a YouTuber with a squeaky voice, we went to math equations that are meant to prove why someone is wrong in what they think and why they should think the same as someone else does because that is apparently the only right and reasonable way to think. Yay.


Hearing someone defend racist shit as a black woman is fucking awful. I've seen this narrative in more than one issue and I'm honestly not surprised by your opinions, statements, and otherwise - even if I think it's all BS. It's sickening to me and lots of other people.

Man, to know that there is a black woman on the other end of the interwebz, one must have some crazy psychic skills. But regardless of that, there are also plenty of black people who don't care about what pdp said or they don't see him as a racist. I understand that for some people it may be awful, but one can't assume that it would be the same for everyone. There are videos online of black youtubers talking about the issue. A question then. If you imply that people who don't think pdp is a racist for saying nigger are racist apologists, then would that also apply to those black people?

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2017, 09:46:00 AM »
Yeah, that's the one. Internet dickwadery is definitely a mediator in things - that should be an official name for it, ha ha.

But yeah, that's my take on it.

Offline Darkcide

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2017, 10:32:47 AM »
From talking about a YouTuber with a squeaky voice, we went to math equations that are meant to prove why someone is wrong in what they think and why they should think the same as someone else does because that is apparently the only right and reasonable way to think. Yay.


Man, to know that there is a black woman on the other end of the interwebz, one must have some crazy psychic skills. But regardless of that, there are also plenty of black people who don't care about what pdp said or they don't see him as a racist. I understand that for some people it may be awful, but one can't assume that it would be the same for everyone. There are videos online of black youtubers talking about the issue. A question then. If you imply that people who don't think pdp is a racist for saying nigger are racist apologists, then would that also apply to those black people?

I cannot speak for her, but sure why not? I know black people that are apologists for a lot worse, like redlining, racial profiling and even slavery.

There are also varying degrees of racism. Not every racist is a neo-nazi.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:34:55 AM by Darkcide »

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2017, 10:36:39 AM »
Anyone can be a racist/apologist. Doesn't matter what race you are.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2017, 10:37:33 AM »
Yeah, that's the one. Internet dickwadery is definitely a mediator in things - that should be an official name for it, ha ha.

There is! It's called John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:



Actually, it's called The Online Disinhibition Effect if you want to be serious about it
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:39:25 AM by Regina Minx »

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2017, 10:44:12 AM »
It is interesting, in all seriousness. It's a lot easier to have a poor slip of the tongue when you're talking to a camera or screen, rather than a person.

Offline Oniya

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2017, 10:48:54 AM »
I've gone over my previous diction to see if there were excessively repeated consonants or fricatives.  Since there were not, I'm going to leave this in even clearer terms:

If one more person uses this thread to take a pot-shot at another Elliquiy member, it will be locked for no less than 24 hours.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2017, 11:07:34 AM »
Just to stand up for Virgil for a moment - he's trying to bow out of this conversation which is veey difficult when people keep dragging him back in woth dismissive attitudes and rude comments.

I get that it's a difficult issue to talk about without getting heated because of the world used, But this is meant to be an adult site. Both sides of the argument have got personal and it doesn't help either look goos.

For my part, I think that a word is simply a word, whatever it's historical context. Using a word doesn't make someone racist - it makes them an idiot, but that's a big difference. Corporations are free to do as they like in response since its their priority to make money, individuals are also free to voice their opinion by either watching the guy or not. I've never watched one of his videos, But he's an e-celeb so controversy is really par the course.

People slip up and say shit when they're angry all the time. I bet if every single one of us here were judged by things we've said in the heat of the moment, we would all have said some bad things.

Tldr: both sides chill out, words are not racist, people can just be stupid.
Words are not racist? And there that "chill out" thing comes into play. Wow. Ha okm

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2017, 11:10:31 AM »
Words are not racist? And there that "chill out" thing comes into play. Wow. Ha okm
Well no, I don't think words are racist - being racist is a mindset, like any kind of negative perception. I get that certain words are loaded with historical baggage, but like I've said before, I don't think a person saying a specific words automatically makes them racist.

And as for the chill out bit... well... yeah, to be honest. There has to come a point when a line is drawn, or else things can never be recovered from. At least that's my opinion.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2017, 11:11:56 AM »
From talking about a YouTuber with a squeaky voice, we went to math equations that are meant to prove why someone is wrong in what they think and why they should think the same as someone else does because that is apparently the only right and reasonable way to think. Yay.


Man, to know that there is a black woman on the other end of the interwebz, one must have some crazy psychic skills. But regardless of that, there are also plenty of black people who don't care about what pdp said or they don't see him as a racist. I understand that for some people it may be awful, but one can't assume that it would be the same for everyone. There are videos online of black youtubers talking about the issue. A question then. If you imply that people who don't think pdp is a racist for saying nigger are racist apologists, then would that also apply to those black people?
lol uhm yes. What are trying to get at? There was a black woman sporting Confederate everything and saying that black people chose to be slaves.

There are apologists everywhere. I'm speaking with my experience, not my entire community and you will not push me down like that. I didn't care for Felix when he said sexist shit, I hated him when he said antisemetic crap, and now im not even surprised by this.

So what the heck is your point?

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2017, 11:14:51 AM »
lol uhm yes. What are trying to get at? There was a black woman sporting Confederate everything and saying that black people chose to be slaves.

There are apologists everywhere. I'm speaking with my experience, not my entire community and you will not push me down like that. I didn't care for Felix when he said sexist shit, I hated him when he said antisemetic crap, and now im not even surprised by this.

So what the heck is your point?
I'm not trying to push anyone down, really. It's just my opinion based on what I've seen in the news or in articles and things like that.

In the example of someone waving a flag and saying that black people chose to be slaves, I would argue that it's a combination of actions, attitude and words. A man blurting out the n-word in a fit of internet-anger isn't the same - again this is my opinion.

My point is the words are villified, rather than the attitude behind them being scrutinised. Knee-jerk reactions are good for no one.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2017, 11:15:23 AM »
I'm not trying to push anyone down, really. It's just my opinion based on what I've seen in the news or in articles and things like that.

In the example of someone waving a flag and saying that black people chose to be slaves, I would argue that it's a combination of actions, attitude and words. A man blurting out the n-word in a fit of internet-anger isn't the same - again this is my opinion.

My point is the words are villified, rather than the attitude behind them being scrutinised. Knee-jerk reactions are good for no one.
that wasn't towards you

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2017, 11:16:33 AM »
that wasn't towards you
... oh fuck <<;

Erm. Never mind. *cough*

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2017, 11:20:21 AM »
And my opinion, based on experience from racial profiling, and racism etc...all that crap as a woman of color is that this crap is not ok. People who do not experience it the same way I do will go unaffected, feel like this is all overreaction, everyone needs to calm down, and continue to tell others what isn't and is racist.

I do not agree with your statements, I'm just being as polite as I can because this is the same narrative I see all the time. It's like a cis person telling a trans individual what isn't and is disciminatory against them.

Just like there are trans people that do not get bothered by everything or they're like Caitlyn Jenner and her contradicting beliefs considering they she is trans.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 11:28:53 AM by la dame en noir »

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2017, 11:22:42 AM »
Okay, I can absolutely accept that it doesn't impact me in the same way because I'm white, but that doesn't mean I can't try to be empathetic.

What would the solution be to this, then? Ban certain words all together?

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2017, 11:27:39 AM »
You can't ban words, but you(in my honest opinion) have more power over dismantling racist behavior. That's what allies are supposed to do. They're supposed to speak out and call out problematic behavior. Not coddle and protect someone as ignorant as Felix. His behavior won't change.

Online Khoraz

Re: PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2017, 11:32:01 AM »
I suppose the issue is that I don't see just using a word as being racist - he had no intention behind it, he was just pissed off and chose a stupid word.

I'll stand up and say he's an idiot, and that he shouldn't have said it - again because it was stupid - but I don't think he was racist.

If I did see someone waving a confederate flag and shouting how all black people should be slaves, then that definitely would be racist, and I wouldn't hesitate to condemn it, but I feel that some perspective is being lost in the drama of it all.