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Author Topic: Charlottesville  (Read 3867 times)

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Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Charlottesville
« on: August 12, 2017, 11:14:08 AM »
Tensions at an all time high in Charlottesville Virginia where protests between Alt right, KKK, BLM, and other groups over the removal of an old confederate statue threaten to turn violent. Members on all sides are seen carrying sticks, batons, homemade shields, and a few even carrying firearms. Though the white nationalists seem to be the ones brandishing the most weapons and in an antagonistic fashion. 

Riot police and state police have been deployed and the National Guard is on standby.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/violent-clashes-between-white-nationalists-and-counterprotesters-in-charlottesville/ar-AApUdhF?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

I feel bad for the cops. No matter what happens they are in the thick of it.

in my opinion the National Guard should already be deploying, not waiting for the chaos to erupt.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 11:17:55 AM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 03:56:33 PM »
Apparently at least 1 car deliberately drove into the people protesting the march. Reports say 1 dead and a bunch injured.

Offline White Wolf

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 04:08:36 PM »
There are already people taking to every corner of social media to decry the "idiot" counter-demonstrators while defending the rights of the White Nationalists to gather and protest.

I just...How in the name of Christ have we arrived at a point in the political evolution of Western civilisation where there is a "debate" to be had about the validity of Nazism? Didn't people invade Europe with a view to hanging these guys from trees, once upon a time?

Politics has reached such a blistering fever pitch that concepts and ideas that should NEVER be controversial have suddenly become battlefields - People with Nazi flags march, and their opponents become the victims of a terrorist attack? Yeah that's controversial now, there's multiple sides to this story.

...Fuck, man.

Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 04:50:58 PM »
There are already people taking to every corner of social media to decry the "idiot" counter-demonstrators while defending the rights of the White Nationalists to gather and protest.

I just...How in the name of Christ have we arrived at a point in the political evolution of Western civilisation where there is a "debate" to be had about the validity of Nazism? Didn't people invade Europe with a view to hanging these guys from trees, once upon a time?

Politics has reached such a blistering fever pitch that concepts and ideas that should NEVER be controversial have suddenly become battlefields - People with Nazi flags march, and their opponents become the victims of a terrorist attack? Yeah that's controversial now, there's multiple sides to this story.

...Fuck, man.

While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

Still what happened today was horrible and I pray for those injured and killed. I wish the cops had done more but this honestly says that they were all unprepared for this. Security forces have to get everything right 100% of the time, because when they don't, people die :(

Offline White Wolf

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 04:59:49 PM »
While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

Still what happened today was horrible and I pray for those injured and killed. I wish the cops had done more but this honestly says that they were all unprepared for this. Security forces have to get everything right 100% of the time, because when they don't, people die :(

But where do you draw the line? Your argument is that the Nazi protest was free speech; but that protest led immediately to an act of terrorism against individuals opposed to that free speech (driving cars into crowds has become the staple of ISIS attacks in Europe; it is, by definition, an act of terrorism).

If that is defended by free speech, can ISIS host similar protests in American and European cities? Both marches lead to the same thing, but the Nazi march is protected by free speech. Why shouldn't the ISIS march be protected too, and allowed to pass unmolested? Both are political views; both lead to acts of terrorism. Let ISIS march, let the Nazis march. Free speech.

...

...I agree with you, that ordinarily, yes, free speech has a wide and unsettling purview. But free speech that incites acts of violence is not protected by law, constitutional or otherwise. If ISIS is not allowed to march - when their tactics are identical to the Nazis who marched today - then the Nazis shouldn't be either. And if people STILL insist that the Nazis SHOULD march, then let's invite ISIS over right now and stand by our values.

Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 05:30:11 PM »
But where do you draw the line? Your argument is that the Nazi protest was free speech; but that protest led immediately to an act of terrorism against individuals opposed to that free speech (driving cars into crowds has become the staple of ISIS attacks in Europe; it is, by definition, an act of terrorism).

If that is defended by free speech, can ISIS host similar protests in American and European cities? Both marches lead to the same thing, but the Nazi march is protected by free speech. Why shouldn't the ISIS march be protected too, and allowed to pass unmolested? Both are political views; both lead to acts of terrorism. Let ISIS march, let the Nazis march. Free speech.

...

...I agree with you, that ordinarily, yes, free speech has a wide and unsettling purview. But free speech that incites acts of violence is not protected by law, constitutional or otherwise. If ISIS is not allowed to march - when their tactics are identical to the Nazis who marched today - then the Nazis shouldn't be either. And if people STILL insist that the Nazis SHOULD march, then let's invite ISIS over right now and stand by our values.

It sucks, I know. Trust me I hate seeing tons of anti American spiel online and in other places, or calls for death and violence. But how can you limit freedom of speech? The truth is you can only do it in certain circumstances such as yelling bomb in an airport or fire in a theatre.

I don't want to say that we should protect Nazis and the scum that are running this country but this is honestly a fine line we are talking about. At what point do we go too far and end up harming everyone? I feel unclean now. Goddamn those Nazis and just aahhh I hate that they put me into this position but I have to bite my hand and state my piece. I hate that i have to feel like the bitch for this but I don't do this cause I love those pieces of walking shit, but I do it because I love the freedoms that this country offers and so many have fought and died for.

Edit: I should likely state I do not defend the vehicle attack. That was an act of terror and I hope whoever did it gets caught by the cops and sent to the harshest pirson possible until they rot of dissintery in their own prison cell.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:36:01 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline White Wolf

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 07:51:34 PM »
I've heard a (VERY MUCH UNSUBSTANTIATED!) rumour that, frankly, for all I know could be complete and utter fake news designed as nothing more than propaganda...nonetheless it bears mentioning. Some right wing circles are sharing a report saying that the driver in question was, in fact, from the antifa protest and he simply hit the "wrong" rally - i.e. he attempted to drive into the Nazi rally, but made a mistake.

*IF* this is true, this chills me to the fucking bone. This compounds upon the terrorist attack on the Republican baseball practise a month or so ago, when a liberal opened fire on the Congressmen and women who were playing. There is something so disheartening and so sickening about the idea of people feeling threatened and unsafe in their own homes, in their own countries, in the towns they've lived in their whole lives - and that, to me, is what makes Nazi rallies of this time so repugnant and despicable. The thoughts going through the heads of the little black, Muslim, Jewish, what have you, children in Virginia watching this go on. But when something like THIS happens afterwards, *IF* the driver was indeed trying to hit the Nazis, it just compounds the entire issue tenfold. The Nazis are not only going to be entrenched in their belief in oppression by a dogmatic liberal society, but they're almost VINDICATED as the victims of violence who're just carrying out their right to peacefully assemble.

It furthers their cause; and the furtherance of their cause means more children go to bed worried that they're not American, or scared of what might happen to them at school the next day.

And even if the driver wasn't a liberal or antifa member or what have you, if he was a card-carrying member of the KKK whose granddaddy was a proud serving member of the SS, it's already too late. Because that rumour has taken root in the right-wing echo chamber and no matter what evidence may emerge over the coming days, it's never going to be shaken off. So all the effects of that attack, all the entrenching of views and furtherance of causes, that's going to happen now no matter who was in that car.

...What strikes me is, where the fuck does this end? It doesn't end with Trump. This started as far back as Obama, and the Tea Party, but its roots stretch back further to the Civil Rights movement and beyond. It's only ramping up, year on year, presidency on presidency. Where the fuck does it END? Extremists on both sides are so distrustful of the other, partisanship has reached such an unbelievable fever pitch both on the streets and in the halls of Congress, where exactly does it end? What is it all building to?

I don't think that question is being asked enough, and it scares the shit out of me. History, contrary to Francis Fukuyama's wildest dreams, did not end when the Wall came down. And history isn't kind to empires whose populations start to tear themselves apart :/

Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 07:59:51 PM »
I don't even know anymore. I just try to make it day to day and make the world better for everyone I meet as much as I can. Its all most of us can do really. Just try and survive and share as much love as we can.

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
They were up in the air because of the neo-Nazi/KKK rallies that have be wreaking havoc this week.  Meanwhile, one of that ilk drove a car into a crowd of people holding a counter-demonstration, killing at least one and injuring many more.  The man from Ohio was found and arrested.  The incident is being investigated as a hate crime.

Offline Sara Nilsson

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 04:28:01 PM »
http://reverepress.com/news/charlottesville-nazis-getting-fired/

Several people who showed up to scream hatred in Charlottesville have been fired by their bosses :) Good.

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 11:32:39 PM »
I am probably going to be super unpopular for what I am about to post, but to heck with it, I don't care:  The amount of cult-like tribalism and narrow thinking I see on threads like this is staggering.

It is not my intention to insult, but to draw attention.  I find it so very funny that so often we have the self-righteous on either side of the political isle demonize and condemn all others without the slightest sense of irony or shame, all while failing to realize that they are themselves a pure reflection of the very evil they claim to oppose.  Name any case of some right-wing nutcase doing something horrible, such as the KKK or Neo-Nazi or Alt-Right or what have you, and I could easily show a case from the other side, BLM, Antifa, ect. which is just as bad or worse.

Yet isn't interesting that, whenever the side one is opposed to does something horrible, you immediately jump to the instant, easy conclusion of "They're Nazi's, Nazi's are evil, bad, blah blah blah.", but of course when the term Nazi comes to define anyone who is even a sliver to the right of Marx, that becomes a pretty empty statement.  Yet when someone on the other side, your side, does something every bit as bad, as vile, you suddenly try to make excuses.  I see this all the time, from both sides.  Seriously, there are people on this board that would probably have been bending over backwards to justify it if Obama had firebombed an orphanage full of sick children, kittens and puppies.  Because one thing I've learned is that so very many people hold very simplistic views when it comes to their politics, which basically just boils down to "My side, right or wrong."

Now, does this represent everyone?  No, of course not.  But while I will not name names, there are so very many posters here (to be fair, more on the left than right since sites like this tend Left in general) have expressed views that are, frankly, every bit as nasty, rotten, and hateful as the very people they are decrying.  And what amuses and depresses me most is that they don't realize it, they are blind to it.

Learning to recognize, and I mean truly recognize one's own biases has become something of a lost art these days.  Everyone just wants to pick a side, no one wants to actually really think.  No one wants to engage in discussion and discourse, because that might mean realizing that the other side might actually have something of value to say.  Can't have that, that threatens the world view, that threatens to burst the bubble, and the outside world is scary, other opinions are scary, the idea that we are maybe, just maybe, not correct, is scary.  This is ultimately how religions are formed.  This is how cults are formed.  And that's what our politics have become today, not just in the United States, but most of the world.  It's become just a bunch of massive cults, filled with adherents who just condemn the other side as evil, and who look at their own side as righteous and above and beyond any and all reproach, complete with witch hunts, holy wars, and excommunications.

Now, of course, these views of mine may very well land me the labels of Racist, Sexist, Misogynist, Homophobic, Trans-phobic, Islamophobic, Martianphobic, plus any additional -phobics people have concocted to ignore the arguments and positions of others, what have you.  But seriously, people need to grow up.  We look at the world today and we weep at how "Horrible it is!  Worst year ever!  Life has never been so bad!  Humans suck!  White people suck!  Black people suck!  Asian people suck!  Blah blah blah."

The thing is, while certainly not perfect, we are living in better times than just about any other period in history, yet because things are (comparatively) so good, we grow accustomed to it, and thus very minor problems become massive catastrophes because many of us have forgotten, or never even truly known, what hard times truly are.  We have become blind to our own wealth, and while I am certainly not saying that everyone is living the high life, the fact is that, even compared to just a short time ago in historical terms, even our impoverished and truly needy are better taken care of than they have ever been.  Does that mean there isn't room for improvement?  Again, the answer is "Of course not", but to pretend that no progress has been made is not only extremely pessimistic, it's downright false.  Yet now people seem, on both sides, intent on dragging us backwards, on undoing the progress that has been made, and I find that both incredibly sad, yet also morbidly amusing.

Again, I doubt this post will make me popular.  I've done my best to remain civil while still indulging in this little rant of mine, but I just had to say it.  Frankly, people on both sides of the political spectrum should be ashamed of themselves, for their complete inability to not only consider the other side, but to even regard the other side as people not only led to the voting in of Trump (though, let's face it, none of our options last time around were any good, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself).  Seriously, the next time you are thinking about people from the other side, try and actually catch yourself and count just how many times you call them "Idiots" or "Evil" or "Nazi" or "Commie" or what ever else.  Actually try and recognize just when you are practicing the very bigotry you accuse the other side of engaging in.  If more of us could do that, then maybe we as a whole might actually be able to make real progress.

I'm not holding my breath though...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:45:18 PM by DelightfullyMAD »

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 06:56:56 AM »
Yet isn't interesting that, whenever the side one is opposed to does something horrible, you immediately jump to the instant, easy conclusion of "They're Nazi's, Nazi's are evil, bad, blah blah blah.", but of course when the term Nazi comes to define anyone who is even a sliver to the right of Marx, that becomes a pretty empty statement.  Yet when someone on the other side, your side, does something every bit as bad, as vile, you suddenly try to make excuses.  I see this all the time, from both sides.  Seriously, there are people on this board that would probably have been bending over backwards to justify it if Obama had firebombed an orphanage full of sick children, kittens and puppies.  Because one thing I've learned is that so very many people hold very simplistic views when it comes to their politics, which basically just boils down to "My side, right or wrong."

The beautiful thing about logic is that if you start with true premises and use valid argumentation, the conclusion you reach must necessarily be true. If, however, you start with flawed premises and use logical fallacies in constructing your argument, you have a conclusion that you cannot show to be true. I'm not going to dissect your entire post, both because I just don't care to engage in an argument in what is supposed to be a news thread, but also because I don't feel the need to. You're using flawed logic because of your reliance on the tu quoque fallacy. "Both sides do it!" is not a logically valid method of objecting to an argument against a particular position.

Not only is your logic flawed, but your premises are incorrect too. You are saying that the left will simply demonize anyone even slightly right as nazis. OK.






You can't accuse the left of strawmanning their political opposition as being Nazis if the people involved in this latest tragedy in the news are literally. Fucking. Nazis.

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 08:59:17 AM »

Offline SidheLady

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 10:56:59 AM »
Before I begin, my thoughts and sympathies go out to the family of the girl who died and anyone who was injured.

It takes one man to throw a punch, it takes two to make a fight.

ANYONE who was violent during this was breaking the law and should be treated as such, reguardless of political idiology.

NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

However, while I've seen the word Nazi in this thread a lot, which, yes, some of them are self-identified Nazi's, however, there have been entire threads on twitter and stuff where people have stated "whites should die, go extinct, etc etc" and there has been absolutely no censure of these threads and words.

I am politically in the centre.

Oh, and while I'm throwing gas on the fire here, Trump's response was right. He called out violence on both sides, and this didn't go far enough for the media because he didn't just go for one side
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:59:27 AM by SidheLady »

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 11:08:50 AM »
NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

Specifically referring to those that have been identified and fired because of their presence in Charlotsville, I saw a quote on this issue I quite liked.

"If they had wanted to remain anonymous, they should have worn their robes and hoods."

Most of the people who have been identified and gotten in trouble with their employers were done so because they appeared in the news, in photographs, and proudly identified themselves by name. If you're proud of your participation in an event to the point where you're giving your name to journalists, it no longer becomes a doxxing issue, nor does it threaten free speech concerns if your presence at this event is later demonstrated to your employer.

Offline la dame en noir

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 11:13:18 AM »
I had this argument earlier - Anyone who tries to defend hate groups that have been around decades and compares them to BLM that formed to stop police brutality against civilians have me raising an eyebrow so far up onto my forehead, I'm not sure if I can get back down. The KKK has been around for far too damn long and yet the government and police has done shit to dismantle them - yet the black panthers are gone and BLM gets shut down and harassed by the police and government. Peaceful protestors(which were made by a majority of college students) were brutally attacked by those tiki torch holding idiots and the police did not do a goddamn thing to help them.

This is systematic racism right here. This years of systematic racism that POC, women, and LGBTQIA+ people tried to dismantle but everyone had their thumbs in their asses. Now Trump is threatening North Korea and shit like this happening - And his orange ass doesn't give a goddamn.

This was something i posted on FB because it was relevant to a man's rant and he just wasn't getting it. I don't know how relevant it is here - but it was rich white men that are the reason we're in this shitstorm now.

"Just in case we forgot about American history - When the Europeans immigrated to America - they were on the same level as black people. It was when upper class/rich white folks were worried lower class American born white people, immigrated white folks, and black folks would tear down the government because of how they were being treated that the system of "You're better than black people because now you're white" came about.

So you can blame the government for that shit too. America was born and bred on white supremacy. It was rich white folks that come up with racial slurs for poor white people. It was rich white folks that told Irish, Polish, Italian, and Jewish Europeans they weren't white - until they were afraid they were going to get together with black folks. It was rich white folks that created this systematic racism.

It is the job of white people in America - because you all have a privilege which is fine to acknowledge - to break it down and not let these fools run around doing whatever the hell they want. "
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:15:29 AM by la dame en noir »

Offline FeveredDreams

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2017, 11:24:51 AM »
I've done.... some stupid things when I was protesting in my loud angry youth.  I do not support political violence,  messing with cars,  smashing in business windows and going for other people's property to display your rage...  anymore.  I've done a lot to attempt to calm myself down over the years...  and yet,  what I've been seeing from the right on this atrocities is an attempt to spin this monsters action as panic...  self defense.  What scares me most is their inability to say that what this man did was wrong. 

My mind is blown...   I believe a lot of us who lean more liberal would be perfectly willing to admit that a person who decided to run into a group of Right or even the EXTREME right was nothing more than a monster. 

Offline la dame en noir

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2017, 11:28:55 AM »
I've done.... some stupid things when I was protesting in my loud angry youth.  I do not support political violence,  messing with cars,  smashing in business windows and going for other people's property to display your rage...  anymore.  I've done a lot to attempt to calm myself down over the years...  and yet,  what I've been seeing from the right on this atrocities is an attempt to spin this monsters action as panic...  self defense.  What scares me most is their inability to say that what this man did was wrong. 

My mind is blown...   I believe a lot of us who lean more liberal would be perfectly willing to admit that a person who decided to run into a group of Right or even the EXTREME right was nothing more than a monster.
And they have to stop that woman's memorial because of threat's from people of that alt-right. It's fucking insane.

Offline Blythe

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2017, 11:32:07 AM »
The Nazis are not only going to be entrenched in their belief in oppression by a dogmatic liberal society, but they're almost VINDICATED as the victims of violence who're just carrying out their right to peacefully assemble.

While I'm aware this poster is on Hiatus, this statement needs addressed.

Deandre Harris, who was beaten by white supremacists, would disagree that the white supremacists were peaceably assembled.

So no, they were not peacefully assembling. As soon as they struck Mr. Harris, it wasn't peaceful.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/deandre-harris-viciously-beaten-poles-white-supremacists-article-1.3410063

Should that driver have mowed anyone down?

No.

But we should not let that horrifying act somehow erase what happened to Mr. Harris.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:46:39 AM by Blythe »

Offline SidheLady

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2017, 11:55:10 AM »
Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police? We have seen what has happened when protests have happened and opposition groups have decided to "counter protest" several times -this year-

Surely if the two groups were not allowed to meet, there would have been no violence

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2017, 11:56:06 AM »
Quote
NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.  Employers have the right to fire their employees if their employees do something that puts their company in a bad light.  That is a consequence.  The company I work for would fire me if I were to ever take part in something that puts them in a negative light.

Personally, I approve of these companies firing those who took part in what happened in Charlottesville.  If those people want to stand up on national news and spew the hatred that they did, then they should face the consequences for those actions.

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 12:02:19 PM »
Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police?

I don't think that's a bad question at all. My suspicion, being somewhat near Charlottesville, is that given how small of a city it is, the local police department was simply unprepared for the scale of events. I honestly don't know, however.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2017, 12:17:29 PM »
My understanding is they were there (2 died in a helicopter crash trying to survey the riot).  As for why they didn't stop this from happening, I suspect a large part of the problem was trying to figure out what the hell was happening.  The alt-right, nazis, KKK had a permit to be there.  The other groups protesting them did not. 

Offline FeveredDreams

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 12:23:53 PM »
And they have to stop that woman's memorial because of threat's from people of that alt-right. It's fucking insane.

It more forgive my language fuckery.  For the movement that always screams about freedom of speech and the right to feel however they want, they seem extremely willing to do whatever is in their power to silence the other voices.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 12:27:00 PM »
I disagree with the doxing and so on of the racists..(refuse to use terms like alt-right, white nationalists, etc..call me what they are...)

You justify their claims by that action. (See? them <insert racial/religious epithets> done ruined our family Jr.)

I'm reminded of something that Burton Joeseph, the Jewish man who represented the National Socialists against Skokie, Ill to march there. It was a long time ago but essentially he said 'I represent them to protect my rights as well as theirs.'

The point being is twofold: what rights we deny them, however heinous we find their outlook, WILL eventually be denied us. Second, we empower them in doing more radical actions. Where do you think suicide bombers come from folks? From men and women who feel marginalized and disenfranchised.

Someone, who stood up to three bullies beating the shit out of me, said it best.."Doing the right thing isn't always doing the easiest thing."

That said, I'm glad to hear talk of the man in the car being called a 'domestic terrorist' instead of racist. He was not 'American' in his actions or outlook. These people don't want 'America', they want 'American for me and mine'. I'm disappointed he got charged with just 2nd degree murder.