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Author Topic: Charlottesville  (Read 2523 times)

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Offline WindFish

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2017, 07:28:43 AM »
If you as President can't bring yourself to say the words "Nazis are evil and I condemn them", then perhaps you're not qualified for that position.

I think Germany has the right idea when it comes to banning Nazis. They learned from their mistakes, and yet they still manage to comply with EU free speech laws in doing so.

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2017, 07:38:39 AM »
If they did, the Federal Government would crush them. It has spent the last decade fighting insurgencies far more well equipped, determined, and trained, than many of those idiots. And for an real successful insurrection you need numbers, real weaponry and support. At most they would cause some civilian deaths and injuries via IEDs before the National Guard came in and really brought the boot down on them.

Even Regular police forces are now being equipped with surplus military gear, including armored vehicles. The problem is it would screw over a lot of good people and the government would probably use that as the final excuse to go all out on gun regulation. :/

But maybe if it gets that bad.....I would accept harsher legislation, for the good of the country. :(

Seriously, I will admit they could be hard in a few fights, but they are small time compared to other insurgency groups, and to the original Nazis.

One would think so, but as the government is currently run by a bunch of Nazi sympathizers we can't be so sure they will make an attempt to do so when the barbarians are at the gates.

By the way, word on the street is that more Charlottesvilles are planned in the coming months by the far-right: https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/16/trump-reveals-true-colours-far-right-plans-charlottesvilles-revealed-tweets/

As this is just merely the first stage of a fascist coup I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

If you as President can't bring yourself to say the words "Nazis are evil and I condemn them", then perhaps you're not qualified for that position.

I think Germany has the right idea when it comes to banning Nazis. They learned from their mistakes, and yet they still manage to comply with EU free speech laws in doing so.

That was obvious from the beginning. Unfortunately a significant chunk of the population (I estimate some 15-25% of it) are either supporters or fellow travelers for the Trump regime. And some may not even care that he's an idiot, so long as he manages to burn things to the ground.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 07:43:04 AM by Trevino »

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2017, 07:50:09 AM »
And also, so much for the second amendment ensuring protection against tyranny. Turns out that, it does jack shit when the population would gladly and voluntarily submit itself to an incipient dictator. What a joke!

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2017, 08:27:32 AM »
Very good editorial on Trump in Economist - and a fabulous caricature to top it off. The pic is on the cover of the new print issue of the paper!  :D

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726696-u-turns-self-regard-and-equivocation-are-not-what-it-takes-donald-trump-has-no-grasp-what-it

Offline Shekinah

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2017, 09:29:46 AM »
I love this message


Online Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #105 on: August 18, 2017, 09:37:33 AM »
Very good editorial on Trump in Economist - and a fabulous caricature to top it off. The pic is on the cover of the new print issue of the paper!  :D

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726696-u-turns-self-regard-and-equivocation-are-not-what-it-takes-donald-trump-has-no-grasp-what-it

The magazine covers are pretty clear about things.


Offline FeveredDreams

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #106 on: August 18, 2017, 10:30:00 AM »
I love this message



Annie does it again.  The man is so likeable. 

Online Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2017, 07:51:21 AM »
Oh, and while I'm throwing gas on the fire here, Trump's response was right. He called out violence on both sides, and this didn't go far enough for the media because he didn't just go for one side

SidheLady, I've actually been thinking a lot about this statement of yours since you posted it. After more than a week of trying to decide why Trump's response felt so off, and why I think he was wrong, this is what I've come up with.

I think that Trumpís reaction on Saturday and since were extraordinary, both in that he behaved in a way we donít expect Donald Trump to behave, and he also behaved in a way that we donít expect the President of the United States to behave.

Donald Trumpís typical reaction to tragic events in the news that he sees as un-American has three parts.

1) He calls it out as being horrible, despicable, and un-American, and he calls it out fast. Often before all the facts are in, like when he denounced the shooting in Milan as an act of Islamic terrorism, turned out to be a much more mundane bank robbery. He didnít do that here when talking about the neo-Nazis.

2) Under usual circumstances, anyone who says to Trumpís blunt explanation of things that itís more complicated or thereís contributory violence or a wider context. Trump uses that as proof that they don't understand the big truth and he ridicules for it. He argues that anyone who doesnít understand the bigger issue or what he sees as the most important part of a thing as proof that they donít understand it as well as he does. In this case, Donald Trump was the one arguing for a more complicated, nuanced view of things. There was contributory violence from the left. The wider context is that there were fine people on both sides (and Iím willing to grant for the sake of argument that Trump is not arguing that the Nazis were fine people, just that there were fine people marching with the Nazi.)

3) The third and final part of Trumpís typical response to this sort of thing is that he has often had a relaxed attitude towards violence done to those he identifies as un-American. We saw this repeatedly in the campaign. When a guy there protesting was blindsided and punched by a Donald Trump supporter, he said (and Iím paraphrasing here), ďWell yes, I donít condone violence, but the guy who was hit was gesturing with his middle finger.Ē As if to say that sometimes people have it coming if they get punched or beaten.

The above three elements are the things that Donald Trump has shown us as part of his response to this sort of thing time and time again when something makes the news and he thinks of it as un-American. And yet, in this case, he completely reversed himself on all three elements. By his own standards and behavior, he was acting out-of-character.

Now Donald Trump (like most people, in the spirit of honesty) has been known to change his standards before. In this case, the question becomes ďWhy is Donald Trump changing his behavior?Ē Either by design or by accident, itís to protect white nationalists, neo-Nazis, and the Klan.

And that brings me to the second way that this was unexpected because itís not the way that Presidents normally address American fascism and racism, at least in the modern era. Presidents are usually quick to respond to this sort of thing in moral terms. The people who were marching with Nazi flags and chanting ďJews will not replace us,Ē usually get denounced by everyone on both sides of the political spectrum. They will usually say that the ideas of the Nazis are totally antithetical to what we think America is.

Donald Trump has refused to engage in that morally at all, at least in his first statement. In fact, he did context-free analysis that suggested that there was some equivalence between both sides, which again is kind of the opposite of what a President normally does.

Thatís why I think, after nearly a week of going over this, that Donald Trumpís response was Ďwrong.í It was atypical, both for Trump himself and Presidents generally, and politicians overall.

When we have Jeff Sessions, who has troubling questions in his own past about race relations, taking the moral high ground and looking like the Ďlaw and orderí guy by calling what happened to Heather Hayer an act of domestic terrorism, it goes to show that standing against the Nazis was a simple thing that would have been universally praised if Trump had gone there with him.

Thereís no sports metaphor to describe how easy it is for any President to denounce Nazism. Itís a slam dunk on a two-foot basket. Itís a four-inch putt. For a President whoís being praised by the Imperial Wizard of the KKK, and who has baggage on race issues (lawsuits about housing discrimination, the Central Park 5, insinuations about Barrack Obama), itís not just an easy thing to do, itís imperative. Itís also telling that Donald Trump once said of his rock hard base that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose votes didnít do this. If true, then there was no downside for him to denounce Nazis. But he didnít, he suggested that there were good people there marching with the Nazis.

And I donít think that can be argued. I donít think a good person would look to their left and see a Klan robe, and look to their right and see a Nazi flag, and want to be associated with that kind of support. I donít think that a good person would have stayed, even if they were a historian to whom the Civil War was their lifeís work, and if they had met the love of their life in that park and proposed to them beneath the statue of Robert E. Lee.

Thatís why I think Trumpís remarks were wrong because they were atypical for Trump, atypical for Presidents, atypical for politicians, and factually wrong in saying that there were good people marching with white supremacists on the issue of Confederate statue removal.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 09:32:21 AM by Regina Minx »

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2017, 02:13:58 PM »
Meanwhile in my home city of Boston, the counter-protesters were successful in giving the neo-fascists the boot: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/19/thousands-expected-at-boston-free-speech-rally-and-counter-protest/?utm_term=.5df7f1684313

They had to end their march early, since they were completely overwhelmed. Not a single shot was fired, and no one was run over. We just now have to keep this up all over the US so that they can end up in the dustbin of history where they belong!

Online Oniya

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2017, 02:25:40 PM »
I have in-laws in the Boston area.  This is the sort of thing I'd expect from the home of JFK and John Adams.

Offline Skynet

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2017, 02:27:07 PM »
The "both sides" nonsense doesn't seem to be a new line of attack.



Not just political cartoons either: 50s and 60s political figures too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/politicians-blamed-both-sides-during-the-civil-rights-movement-kkk-and-the-naacp/

There are definitely problems within US antifa and Black Lives Matter, but both groups combined have nowhere near the amount of blood on their hands as white nationalists, nor are their stated goals anything close to theirs.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 02:39:47 PM by Skynet »

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2017, 03:56:24 PM »
There are definitely problems within US antifa and Black Lives Matter, but both groups combined have nowhere near the amount of blood on their hands as white nationalists, nor are their stated goals anything close to theirs.

Yeah, this is the one thing that seems to be lost on those who criticize both sides. Even if the Left is flawed (though examples are never elaborated on when you begin to demand them), the point is that the Right is even worse. Much worse, in fact, because they have already explicitly stated that their end goal is to create a new and violent form of hierarchy.

Offline Iniquitous

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2017, 04:13:35 PM »
I have, much like Regina, spent a lot of time looking at this situation with the idiotís response.  Not because I had any doubt on how wrong he was, or because I needed to figure out why I believe him to be wrong.  My job deals with talking to people.  Usually, I have a pretty firm grip on the conversation and can keep it from venturing into territories that Iíd really wish to stay out of.  But there are those times that I get blindsided by a customer and end up in shark infested waters.

It is those times, and the fact I live with a die hard Trump supporter, that has given me the chance to listen to every conceivable side to this tragedy.

Personally, I fully believe the idiot in the oval office is a closet racist.  He was raised by a card carrying Klansman (not sure if his mother was a full blown racist or not).  Sure, he could totally have a different view than his father did, but based upon his past, I suspect that he is.  He will never admit it - that would be political suicide and harm his brand in ways that I doubt heíd be able to repair.  An idiot he may be, but stupid he is not.

His response of Ďviolence on both sidesí irks the shit out of me.  He was trying to take the middle ground so as to not piss off one side or the other.  He was trying to keep from having to take a stance.  That, to me, is cowardly.   You cannot go through life never taking a stance against the wrongs in the world.  Do I think he has a reason for trying to not take a stance?  You betcha.  And that reason became clear when David Duke started tweeting his thanks to Trump.  He knows that his largest group of supporters is the angry, racist white.   Again, heís not stupid and his whole campaign was played straight to that demographic.

It has been pointed out that it would have been SO very easy for this idiot to condemn the hate groups with his racist Attorney General and be done with it.  He would have been praised for coming out against hate - and he does so love being praised.  Lives for it.   The fact that he actively avoided a situation where he would have been praised by the whole fecking world just gives me more reason to believe that he is, in fact, a racist and he was desperate to not piss off his largest group of supporters.

Now, over the past week I have heard so many theories - most of which make me wish I could either smack the person spewing them or beat my head in against the nearest hard surface.  Everything from mimicking the idiotís stance of Ďwell, the counter protesters shouldnít have been there!í to ĎGeorge Soros paid the hate groups and the liberals to be there and clash!!í

Iíve heard everything from George Soros is trying to start a race war to this is the beginning of the country turning against the government.

And hereís where I stand.  Hate does not belong in our society.  We should never stand by and allow a group of people hell bent on inflicting terror, hate, and harm to succeed.  I stand by the phrase ďsee a nazi, punch a naziĒ.  I think that is a perfectly fine response to have when you see some asshat waving the swastika or giving the salute.   I firmly believe in shouting longer and louder than them.  I believe that the US needs to adopt the same attitude towards any nazi propaganda that some of the European countries hasÖ. Make it fecking illegal. Waving symbols of hate is not part of the first amendment.  Those symbols are an incitement to violence - and that is not part of free speech.  Terrorizing groups of people is not part of free speech.   

It is that stance that I have that makes me see red when I hear someone parrot what the idiot in the oval office said.  No.  This is not a time to try and point fingers at the counter protesters and blame THEM for the death of one of them.  There should have never been a permit given to the damn ignorant fools that wanted to spew their hate.

And as I see it right now - on Tuesday, Trump metaphorically stood in the middle of 5th Avenue and shot Heather Heyer. 

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2017, 06:21:34 AM »
I have in-laws in the Boston area.  This is the sort of thing I'd expect from the home of JFK and John Adams.

You may find this tweet rather amusing: https://mobile.twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/898989750295470080

A comparison of the two crowds between the "free speech" protesters, and the much larger counter-protester crowd...

Online Oniya

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #114 on: August 20, 2017, 11:32:32 AM »
I had to strip out the 'mobile' part, but yup.

Offline DominantPoet

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Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #115 on: August 20, 2017, 04:18:26 PM »
You may find this tweet rather amusing: https://mobile.twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/898989750295470080

A comparison of the two crowds between the "free speech" protesters, and the much larger counter-protester crowd...

Wow. Makes sense now why the "free speech" rally there was nulled so quickly.

*crosses my fingers it's also an apt example of how the genuinely good people outnumber the bad in this world*

Offline Skynet

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #116 on: September 02, 2017, 12:37:29 AM »
Debating whether to make this video link its own thread or here. But since Charlottesville seems an active thread, why not here?

After the huge negative publicity, fascists and white nationalist sympathizers are going to go back into the shadows. But dog-whistle politics are a tried and true tactic, they're going to adapt new terms in an attempt to win over centrists and people inclined towards mainstream conservatism as well as folks who style themselves as liberals.

The above video is a very good explanation of the phenomena, and ways one can recognize and see-through crypto-fascist talking points. It's a good watch overall, but if you're pressed for time the beginning of common strategies starts at the 7:40 mark.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 12:52:16 AM by Skynet »