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Author Topic: Charlottesville  (Read 3534 times)

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Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2017, 12:31:35 PM »
I'm disappointed he got charged with just 2nd degree murder.

That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

Online Oniya

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2017, 12:42:12 PM »
Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.  Employers have the right to fire their employees if their employees do something that puts their company in a bad light.  That is a consequence.  The company I work for would fire me if I were to ever take part in something that puts them in a negative light.

Personally, I approve of these companies firing those who took part in what happened in Charlottesville.  If those people want to stand up on national news and spew the hatred that they did, then they should face the consequences for those actions.

For what it's worth, 'doxxing' is when a third party searches out someone's personal and private information.  If someone puts themselves on TV, talks to reporters, and gives their name, then there is no 'third party'.  And with the size of Charlottesville, chances are that someone who knew these people was watching the news.  Maybe even their direct employers.

Offline KieraJade

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2017, 12:46:23 PM »
This might be the first time I've ever posted in this part of the forums.

But as someone who has people in their life who were literally on the ground in Charlottesville this past weekend (both participating in the counter-protests and covering the events for local media), and someone who believes in correct information getting out so people can make their own decisions, here are just a few of the stories and timelines that you should read if you have any questions as to how it went down, where police were, where the politicians were, etc.:

http://www.newsadvance.com/townnews/politics/unite-the-right-torch-rally-ends-in-violence-at-the/article_11146201-05f6-59a8-82ea-bde597212c11.html

https://www.cjr.org/first_person/charlottesville-protest-photographer-photo.php?facebook&utm_content=buffer9fe91&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://wset.com/news/local/timeline-of-events-for-unite-the-right-rally-in-charlottesville

https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/heres-what-really-happened-in-charlottesville?utm_term=.dtLDYGkKYo#.ie8yPdNOPE


Edit: Also, Charlottesville tried to move the rally, but because of testimony/Facebook posts/lawyers, it stayed downtown:

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/state/judge-allows-unite-the-right-rally-to-stay-in-emancipation/article_e3971264-12e9-5f85-8bd2-004cad4840a1.html
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:50:09 PM by KieraJade »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2017, 12:47:33 PM »
That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

I understand the way, I'm just disappointed we can see more Regina.. this man drove a CAR through a lot of people and we are LUCKY he didn't kill more.  I want him hammered to put it in the head of the next fool that THIS IS NOT TO BE DONE.

Ultimately, I'm saddened by this whole thing. I'm old enough to recall the 70s and read enough to understand what the decades before were like. I know am an atypical southern white boy from small town NC but I lived in other places. My first exposure to terroris dates back to the late 70s in Ireland.

I don't want that sort of thing here.

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2017, 12:52:33 PM »
That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

It is also a product of the fact that "domestic terrorism" doesn't usually carry a more serious charge in our legal system. They would also need to be considered an enemy combatant for something like that (or also be charged with conspiracy, etc.).


Offline Valerian

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2017, 12:59:23 PM »
Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police? We have seen what has happened when protests have happened and opposition groups have decided to "counter protest" several times -this year-

Surely if the two groups were not allowed to meet, there would have been no violence

From the Buzzfeed link KieraJade posted:

Quote
The right-wingers were more prepared for violence. Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods, and yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to “move forward” or “retreat,” and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched 300 a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this. Virginia’s governor said that the right’s weaponry was better than that of the state police.

Emphasis mine.

Offline midnightblack

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 03:19:00 PM »
While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

Quote
The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

I think that these two statements contradict each other. Freedom of any kind must first and foremost imply the responsibility of understanding the ends to which it is put to use. Some countries that are otherwise quite liberal have heavy restrictions or outright bans on nazi symbols and propaganda, for reasons that should be self-evident. This is a flawed and failed ideology that caused the largest armed conflict of the XXth century and some of the biggest atrocities in human history, less than a hundred years ago. I'd argue that the deathtoll and long term damage caused by communism are actually larger, but that's beside the point.

I believe that it takes a frightening level of ignorance to ever support ideas that lead to mass hatred and murder. I do not think that freedom of expression is an answer for these people, but rather a thorough education on the topics that they claim to be in agreement with. Blissful ignorance together with an absolute freedom of speech can only lead to some form of disaster.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2017, 03:48:03 PM »
I disagree Midnightblack.. like one of my teachers said.."Better to have them show their hate, and know it's there, than to outlaw it and have them hide it." Or today, have them justify their actions Like the do.

Evil is going to be there, I'd rather see it so I can point it out and call it out. Too many smiling faces in the news already foster rotten attitudes. Given an open forum they can out themselves.. like Milo Yiannopolis? He literally hung himself in the media..

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2017, 03:51:50 PM »
Well. Figuratively.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2017, 03:59:48 PM »
Well. Figuratively.

Ah,. Thanks .. wishful thinking on my part.. :D

Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2017, 05:04:53 PM »
I personally feel that Philip De Franco kind of states my thoughts on all this better than I could.

Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2017, 05:15:29 PM »
From the Buzzfeed link KieraJade posted:

Emphasis mine.

You know, I will agree. I found it odd that we didn't see a single MRAP deployed there.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


You would think with such heated tensions the government would toss the police forces some of those to even the odds. I saw the weapons a lot of the Nationlists were carrying and a few AR-15s and glocks aren't going to put a dent in an MRAP.

They knew a big mob of two factions was coming and it was inevitable that people would start to fight. The only way to stop it from turning into a full blown riot is with overwhelming force on the part of security forces and moving the mobs into smaller chunks to keep them away from eachother.


I think that these two statements contradict each other. Freedom of any kind must first and foremost imply the responsibility of understanding the ends to which it is put to use. Some countries that are otherwise quite liberal have heavy restrictions or outright bans on nazi symbols and propaganda, for reasons that should be self-evident. This is a flawed and failed ideology that caused the largest armed conflict of the XXth century and some of the biggest atrocities in human history, less than a hundred years ago. I'd argue that the deathtoll and long term damage caused by communism are actually larger, but that's beside the point.

I believe that it takes a frightening level of ignorance to ever support ideas that lead to mass hatred and murder. I do not think that freedom of expression is an answer for these people, but rather a thorough education on the topics that they claim to be in agreement with. Blissful ignorance together with an absolute freedom of speech can only lead to some form of disaster.

Well...I can see your point. I do agree that more education would go a long way to help fight against this.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 05:17:06 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Cookie

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2017, 05:29:19 PM »


It is not my intention to insult, but to draw attention.  I find it so very funny that so often we have the self-righteous on either side of the political isle demonize and condemn all others without the slightest sense of irony or shame, all while failing to realize that they are themselves a pure reflection of the very evil they claim to oppose.  Name any case of some right-wing nutcase doing something horrible, such as the KKK or Neo-Nazi or Alt-Right or what have you, and I could easily show a case from the other side, BLM, Antifa, ect. which is just as bad or worse.


I take umbrage with this perspective because you've got to take into account the aims of a movement alongside the actions of it's proponents.  Neo-Nazism is openly racist,  and fascist, it's ostensibly incompatible with the shared values of decent people, there's no taking it the wrong way, they are acting in line with the values promoted by their movement, their aims are odious.

I'm no expert on BLM  (I'm British so it doesn't meaningfully exist here) or what individual BLM supporters might have done/said, but I've seen their stated aims, and most seem reasonable, or at least within the framework of typical political debate.  An opposite to the KKK I guess would be something like the Nation of Islam, black supremacist type organisations.  Of course I'm opposed to far-left terrorism like the Red Army Faction or something. I hope their like don't spring up again.

I'm not for banning certain political opinions or speech, however obnoxious. Though in my personal experience far-right rallies bring violence and the threat of violence especially to vulnerable groups, and minority groups. I don't have a lot of time for anarchists smashing up property, but we've never had to hide in our home because of that, never experienced it once. Trust me when far right groups are marching on your doorstep it's not a lot of fun, especially if you or your loved ones are non-white, LGBTQ, or anything a bit different. Can't imagine what it's like if they're all armed up with guns  :o

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2017, 06:19:46 PM »
Lynching appears to be making a comeback in the South:


Offline WindFish

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2017, 06:36:37 PM »
Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.

This. Exactly this. It amazes me how little the people who claim to support free speech fail to understand this.

Free speech does not mean you're free from the consequences of said speech. Sure, you're free to tell your boss to go fuck himself, but chances are you'll be unemployed by the end of the day if you do.

Likewise, if you show up at a Nazi rally chanting racist and anti-Semitic slogans, then you are going to get called out on it, and people are free to judge you on it. I fully support the companies firing them, as well as the naming and shaming. If they were so concerned about their privacy and identities, they should have worn their hoods. You don't get to claim you're the victim afterwards.

I have no sympathy for anyone who attended that rally. They deserve to be identified. They willingly chose to attend the event knowing full well they'd be photographed. My sympathies are with the victims that one of them killed and injured, and the two officers who needlessly died while out patrolling the rally.

Before you sympathize with them or think they they were "peaceful" or blame the other side, keep in mind the following:

They were out there carrying torches, while others were armed to the teeth in military gear
They were there chanting anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, and misogynist slogans and giving Hitler salutes
They surrounded a group of counterprotesters and endangered their lives
They were they supporting ideologies (Nazism, fascism, and white supremacy) that are inherently violent and racist

And let's not forget that the very next day one of them plowed a car through a group of innocent people, killing one and injuring nearly two dozen more. There were also many reports of business owners being threatened by these thugs. Peaceful, my ass.

These guys were not peaceful. They were there looking for trouble, and that was exactly what they found.

Offline SidheLady

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2017, 06:46:10 PM »
I personally feel that Philip De Franco kind of states my thoughts on all this better than I could.

The video was interesting,  as was the one by Honeybadger Radio

I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.


Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2017, 07:01:20 PM »
I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.

Its been building up for several decades actually. I don't think we can count on the center to be able to contain the conflict at this point, since their political framework is unable to resolve the contradictions between their promises of equality and justice, and their continued affirmation (and support) of an order which is effectively undemocratic.

It's a contradiction, I think, that America has never been able to be honest about.


Offline Lustful BrideTopic starter

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2017, 07:04:46 PM »
Its been building up for several decades actually. I don't think we can count on the center to be able to contain the conflict at this point, since their political framework is unable to resolve the contradictions between their promises of equality and justice, and their continued affirmation (and support) of an order which is effectively undemocratic.

It's a contradiction, I think, that America has never been able to be honest about.

I try to disagree, but with each day I feel we just get closer to a Dredd level dystopia.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Online Sara Nilsson

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2017, 07:05:25 PM »
I find it amusing that people defend the nazis, and yes that IS what they where. Screaming nazi slogans, doing the salute and waving the fucking swastika! I wonder what my grandfather would think, who served on the Swedish border to Norway throughout the war. Sure he never saw combat but I asked him once when I was a wee kid, and even then I could tell it scared him. Scared him to know that at a moments notice we could be next, only the efforts by the Swedish government kept us neutral. And it can be argued if that was good or bad that is besides the point.

Or what my husbands father would say. I need only go into our living room, on the wall mounted behind glass are his service medals. His uniform and bayonet that he got while serving during WWII. The very people that he sacrificed so much to fight, lost so many of his generation to wipe out is now proudly waving their fucking flags in his home country. I never got to meet him, he passed away before I met hubby, but from what hubby has told I think I have a pretty good idea how pissed he would be.

I wonder what my German relatives would say, my great, great grandfather (I think it was) came to Sweden. managed to get a sweet job as a train crossing guard and changed his last name to the much more Swedish one we now use. But I wonder what they would say, the ones that we don't know what happened to during the war. The ones that are just.. missing. Dead from the bombings? Starved to death or killed by the nazis? We don't know. But I wonder what they would say about people waving the nazi flag in the US.

Both in Germany and in Sweden that is illegal. And honestly we do not see it as an attack on free speech, it isn't a slippery slope. We banned that, and we havent gone ban crazy and ban tons of free speech.

People say, "What if we could have stopped Hitler and the nazis before they rose to power?" Well...

People also say, "these neo nazis are just a few people." If my history lesson is right, Hitler only started with a few people too. The nazi moment didn't start millions strong, the Beer Hall Putsch was only about 2000 of them.

Now I am NOT saying that ignoring the neo nazis will lead to them taking over. Just to make that crystal fucking clear. This is just my ramblings from what I have seen and heard in the wake of this horrible event. To hear people claim that the left is just as bad as the nazis (and again they are nazis, not just the over used internet trope of people I dont like are nazis, wave the nazi flag, scream blood and soil and you are a nazi. simple as that. simple duck test). I am sorry, not putting up with hatred isn't hatred. Opposing an ideology that want people like myself put to death is NOT even remotely on the same level as hating people so much you are willing to use a symbol that stood for just that. And the cries of "But communism killed more people" isn't a defense. I cant tell the judge "I only killed 2 people, Ted Bundy killed more so you should let me off".

Maybe.. maybe it is because I am not American, I just live here. But I don't understand. I just don't.

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2017, 07:08:38 PM »
The video was interesting,  as was the one by Honeybadger Radio

I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.

This is my hope.  Honestly, I find myself growing more and more disappointed in both our major parties, as both sides have become rife with extremism.  Left and Right, both are feeding off each other, growing more and more insane by the day.  The same goes for our numerous organizations and groups, they all just feed off each other, gorging off each other, and all grow more and more crazy.  Simply put, the inmates are running all of the asylums, and it's the moderates of all groups who are being caught in the crossfire.  Antifa and the like are tearing the Left apart, the Alt-Right and the like are tearing the Right apart.  If I felt confident that both sides would just obliterate each other with minimal collateral damage, I'd almost say we should just sit back and watch this play out, but I doubt that will be the case.  My only hope is that both of the major parties have been damaged enough to allow in some real alternatives next election cycle.

Frankly, I am all on board with the formation of a Centrist party, something which tries to embody, as pragmatically as can be realistically expected, the values and ideas that both sides have to offer.  I am often in agreement with many of the ideas of the Moderate Left, and I also find value in many other ideas from the Moderate Right.  The trick, of course, is to try and maintain some sort of equilibrium.

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2017, 08:45:01 PM »
This is my hope.  Honestly, I find myself growing more and more disappointed in both our major parties, as both sides have become rife with extremism.  Left and Right, both are feeding off each other, growing more and more insane by the day.  The same goes for our numerous organizations and groups, they all just feed off each other, gorging off each other, and all grow more and more crazy.  Simply put, the inmates are running all of the asylums, and it's the moderates of all groups who are being caught in the crossfire.  Antifa and the like are tearing the Left apart, the Alt-Right and the like are tearing the Right apart.  If I felt confident that both sides would just obliterate each other with minimal collateral damage, I'd almost say we should just sit back and watch this play out, but I doubt that will be the case.  My only hope is that both of the major parties have been damaged enough to allow in some real alternatives next election cycle.

Frankly, I am all on board with the formation of a Centrist party, something which tries to embody, as pragmatically as can be realistically expected, the values and ideas that both sides have to offer.  I am often in agreement with many of the ideas of the Moderate Left, and I also find value in many other ideas from the Moderate Right.  The trick, of course, is to try and maintain some sort of equilibrium.

The fallacy here is the claim that the two major political parties in the United States actually oppose each other. The reality is, is that the GOP is on the far right, and the Democratic Party as it exists today are about as right wing as the GOP were during the Reagan administration (if you don't believe me then see here, where Democratic party leaders are now beginning to support anti-abortion candidates, or at least contemplating doing so).

There is no significant Left party currently existing in the United States today (or for that matter, a true Centrist party). It may be true that much of the population is either on the Center or the Left, but without any effective organization they don't have any political representation...

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:48:21 PM by Trevino »

Offline Regina Minx

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2017, 08:48:04 PM »
Old joke. "There are two major political parties in the United States. The far Right party, called the Republicans. And the center Right party, called the Democrats."

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2017, 09:02:54 PM »
Pretty much! What makes it particularly grating is the fact that the Right will often hijack genuinely progressive campaigns or ideals, only to discard them once they get into power (and then to further add to the absurdity, they will then place the blame the Left for abandoning them).

Freedom of speech too is similarly abused by the Right, using it to support or justify violence against minorities and other vulnerable populations, with the eventual goal of abolishing it once they seize power.

Offline DelightfullyMAD

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2017, 09:22:53 PM »
The fallacy here is the claim that the two major political parties in the United States actually oppose each other. The reality is, is that the GOP is on the far right, and the Democratic Party as it exists today are about as right wing as the GOP were during the Reagan administration (if you don't believe me then see here, where Democratic party leaders are now beginning to support anti-abortion candidates, or at least contemplating doing so).

There is no significant Left party currently existing in the United States today (or for that matter, a true Centrist party). It may be true that much of the population is either on the Center or the Left, but without any effective organization they don't have any political representation...

Yeah, that is true.  The problem with a new party forming is that the whole thing is pretty much stacked so that such an event is all but impossible.  Any third parties that want to become even remotely viable or competitive have to hit a certain goalpost to even be eligible for major federal funding, and needless to say, that goal post keeps getting moved.  While I have my issues with both the Libertarian party and the Green party, at least having additional options like them would introduce an additional level of competition and choice, which would go a long ways to keeping the major parties more under control.  As of right now though, it really is just a case of 'Pick your Poison'.

Hell, I definitely didn't like Gary Johnson, but I still put in my vote for the Libertarians during the last election, more in the (admittedly vain) hope that the party itself would at least manage to hit that mark.  The Green party, though, didn't have a chance, and really was a wasted vote.  Alas, it was not to be.

Offline Trevino

Re: Charlottesville
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2017, 09:36:16 PM »
Yeah, that is true.  The problem with a new party forming is that the whole thing is pretty much stacked so that such an event is all but impossible.  Any third parties that want to become even remotely viable or competitive have to hit a certain goalpost to even be eligible for major federal funding, and needless to say, that goal post keeps getting moved.  While I have my issues with both the Libertarian party and the Green party, at least having additional options like them would introduce an additional level of competition and choice, which would go a long ways to keeping the major parties more under control.  As of right now though, it really is just a case of 'Pick your Poison'.

Hell, I definitely didn't like Gary Johnson, but I still put in my vote for the Libertarians during the last election, more in the (admittedly vain) hope that the party itself would at least manage to hit that mark.  The Green party, though, didn't have a chance, and really was a wasted vote.  Alas, it was not to be.

That's Duverger's Law for you! Because the USA has a "winner takes all" system, as exemplified by the Electoral College, it will necessarily tend towards a stable equilibrium in which you have only two dominant parties. Effectively, the only way for a third party win is to do so at the expense of one of the other two. When the system is stable, this would normally be impossible, but during times of political chaos there is a chance it could happen (as in the case of the Republican Party back just before the Civil War, where they displaced the Whigs). It is also why I have argued time and again to primary the Democrats in future elections (since they will not seriously resist the GOP, we need someone who can, and fast).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:38:02 PM by Trevino »