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Author Topic: New James Bond.  (Read 2431 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2014, 08:16:41 AM »
Plus, Bond the White Englishman has been played by a Scot (a Scot who famously makes dick all effort to do accents, whats more), an Englishman, an Australian, a Welshman and and an Irishman.  Drawing the line at saying skin colour is a step too far seems a little arbitrary.

Offline Beorning

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2014, 09:41:52 AM »
Are they making Sue Richards black as well?  Because - ya know - they are supposed to be brother and sister. 

Sue Storm is going to be white (but not necessarily blonde, as the actress they're going with is a brunette). I think they'll be going with Johnny being either adopted, or the Storm parents being an interracial marriage.

I admit that I don't like this change - and I *really* didn't like the reactions of some commenters to people who objected it. For once, the ComicsAlliance site commented that there should be no discussion of this casting decision at all and that all complaints against it  are pure racism and nothing else... I don't read ComicsAlliance anymore  >:(

Anyway...

I have nothing against Idris Elba, as I know he's a good actor. It's just that Bond really has been, in my mind, defined as having certain looks. Elba just... doesn't have these looks. It's as if Jackson hired a black actor to play Gandalf...

And to be clear, i'm annoyed with white people playing non-white characters, too. If, say, somebody made another Miami Vice movie and casted a white actor as Tubbs, that would be wrong, too.

Online Vorian

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2014, 09:45:59 AM »
Sue Storm is going to be white (but not necessarily blonde, as the actress they're going with is a brunette). I think they'll be going with Johnny being either adopted, or the Storm parents being an interracial marriage.

I admit that I don't like this change - and I *really* didn't like the reactions of some commenters to people who objected it. For once, the ComicsAlliance site commented that there should be no discussion of this casting decision at all and that all complaints against it  are pure racism and nothing else... I don't read ComicsAlliance anymore  >:(

Anyway...

I have nothing against Idris Elba, as I know he's a good actor. It's just that Bond really has been, in my mind, defined as having certain looks. Elba just... doesn't have these looks. It's as if Jackson hired a black actor to play Gandalf...

And to be clear, i'm annoyed with white people playing non-white characters, too. If, say, somebody made another Miami Vice movie and casted a white actor as Tubbs, that would be wrong, too.

If I recall correctly they said Sue was adopted, and that's about par for course on how faithful the characters are in this adaptation ... sounds like pretty much in name only. :-\

Offline Beorning

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2014, 09:52:00 AM »
If I recall correctly they said Sue was adopted, and that's about par for course on how faithful the characters are in this adaptation ... sounds like pretty much in name only. :-\

Wait. They are making both Johnny and the Storm elders black... but Sue has to white? Now *that* doesn't make sense at all.

Maybe they really *are* afraid of showing an interracial relationship between Reed and Sue... which, funnily, would mean that it's the makers of this new movie who are racist here.

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2014, 10:03:38 AM »
Okay, I gave it some thought and came up with a way it would work - although Sir Ian is probably approaching about 78 rpm at six feet under.

James Bond (the white one) is on a mission and flubs up in a way that not even his suavity and derring-do can get him out of.  This is shown as part of the classic Bond intro scene.  Cut to M (by the way, I was weirded out when M was first given a female portrayal - does that make me a bad person?) in her office, stamping the file 'deceased'.  She picks up the phone and says 'Send in the new one.'  Bond intro music starts with the classic view down the gun barrel and Idris Elba walking across the screen.

This would also handily explain how 'James Bond' has gone from a blue-eyed brunette (Moore) to a dark-eyed brunette (Connery and Dalton), to a blue-eyed blonde (Craig).  It's not a name - it's a code name.  The name 'Bond, James Bond' carries with it a certain amount of clout after the agents' exploits under that name, so why not add to the mystique?


Regarding the Fantastic 4 thing, if they're going with the older Storms being black, then it would be less complicated in my eyes to make the whole family black - and I'd be fine with that.

Offline Beorning

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2014, 10:09:11 AM »
Okay, I gave it some thought and came up with a way it would work - although Sir Ian is probably approaching about 78 rpm at six feet under.

James Bond (the white one) is on a mission and flubs up in a way that not even his suavity and derring-do can get him out of.  This is shown as part of the classic Bond intro scene.  Cut to M (by the way, I was weirded out when M was first given a female portrayal - does that make me a bad person?) in her office, stamping the file 'deceased'.  She picks up the phone and says 'Send in the new one.'  Bond intro music starts with the classic view down the gun barrel and Idris Elba walking across the screen.

This would also handily explain how 'James Bond' has gone from a blue-eyed brunette (Moore) to a dark-eyed brunette (Connery and Dalton), to a blue-eyed blonde (Craig).  It's not a name - it's a code name.  The name 'Bond, James Bond' carries with it a certain amount of clout after the agents' exploits under that name, so why not add to the mystique?

See, that would work for me, too. If they went with there being multiple Bonds, then it would make perfect sense with one of them finally being black.

Just like it would work for me if a new incarnation of the Doctor turned out to be black. Heck, I think that there *is* some canon justification that the Doctor could turned out female in some future iteration...

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2014, 10:15:50 AM »
There was actually a one-off comment by Tom Baker before Peter Davidson was announced that he wished the new Doctor well - whoever he or she might be.  Fans went nuts.  Had to wait until now for a Time Lord to actually jump the gender barrier.

Offline Beorning

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2014, 10:50:21 AM »
There was actually a one-off comment by Tom Baker before Peter Davidson was announced that he wished the new Doctor well - whoever he or she might be.  Fans went nuts.  Had to wait until now for a Time Lord to actually jump the gender barrier.

"Until now"..? Does that mean...?  :o

No spoilers for Season 8, pleeeeeeease!!!!

Offline Lilias

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2014, 11:37:02 AM »
Season 8 is done, and Capaldi isn't going away anytime soon. When it's time for the 13th... well, all bets are off. What we did have on 8, though, was the first proper Time Lady in aaaages. ;)

Offline DukeJohn

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2014, 02:44:20 PM »
James Bond (the white one) is on a mission and flubs up in a way that not even his suavity and derring-do can get him out of.  This is shown as part of the classic Bond intro scene.  Cut to M (by the way, I was weirded out when M was first given a female portrayal - does that make me a bad person?) in her office, stamping the file 'deceased'.  She picks up the phone and says 'Send in the new one.'  Bond intro music starts with the classic view down the gun barrel and Idris Elba walking across the screen.

This would also handily explain how 'James Bond' has gone from a blue-eyed brunette (Moore) to a dark-eyed brunette (Connery and Dalton), to a blue-eyed blonde (Craig).  It's not a name - it's a code name.  The name 'Bond, James Bond' carries with it a certain amount of clout after the agents' exploits under that name, so why not add to the mystique?

I personally just think of them all as different guys who exist separately from one another. I could maybe see Connery-Lazenby-Moore as the same guy, since the cast for the side characters stays the same and there are some references to past movies (like visiting Tracy's grave and the Blofeld cameo in For Your Eyes Only), but I think of Dalton, Brosnan, and Craig as all being separate.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there's a black James Bond next time around, with all the talk about it, but Elba will be too old to be just starting out as Bond by the time Craig is done (he's on contract for two more movies).

Offline persephone325

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2014, 04:51:18 PM »
Blythe, he also played in The Losers with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Chris Evans. Zoe Saldana was in the movie as well.

Offline consortium11

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2014, 12:37:11 AM »
Okay, I gave it some thought and came up with a way it would work - although Sir Ian is probably approaching about 78 rpm at six feet under.

James Bond (the white one) is on a mission and flubs up in a way that not even his suavity and derring-do can get him out of.  This is shown as part of the classic Bond intro scene.  Cut to M (by the way, I was weirded out when M was first given a female portrayal - does that make me a bad person?) in her office, stamping the file 'deceased'.  She picks up the phone and says 'Send in the new one.'  Bond intro music starts with the classic view down the gun barrel and Idris Elba walking across the screen.

This would also handily explain how 'James Bond' has gone from a blue-eyed brunette (Moore) to a dark-eyed brunette (Connery and Dalton), to a blue-eyed blonde (Craig).  It's not a name - it's a code name.  The name 'Bond, James Bond' carries with it a certain amount of clout after the agents' exploits under that name, so why not add to the mystique?

I don't see the need to "explain" it.

Leiter went from white to black (as well as using a large number of different actors) and there was no need to explain it. M went from male to female... again no need to explain it. Bond went from the literary character to an obviously Scottish amateur bodybuilder who Fleming himself didn't think was suave enough to play the role to a laconic and smug Australian to a smooth Londoner who would be stereotyped as driving a Jaguar to a Welshman to an Irishman to a guy from North West England... and it was never explained (and that's just the Eon productions). As well as the changing accents and faces the way they've played Bond has been different... sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly at all (with the most obvious being the more comedic and lighthearted Moore films to the more gritty and dark realism of Dalton's).

In fact I think there would actually be something slightly unpleasant about having to "explain" Bond changing now that a black man is in the role but having never felt the need to explain the many, many previous changes.

Offline Stella

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2014, 03:25:39 AM »
I don't see the need to "explain" it.

Leiter went from white to black (as well as using a large number of different actors) and there was no need to explain it. M went from male to female... again no need to explain it. Bond went from the literary character to an obviously Scottish amateur bodybuilder who Fleming himself didn't think was suave enough to play the role to a laconic and smug Australian to a smooth Londoner who would be stereotyped as driving a Jaguar to a Welshman to an Irishman to a guy from North West England... and it was never explained (and that's just the Eon productions). As well as the changing accents and faces the way they've played Bond has been different... sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly at all (with the most obvious being the more comedic and lighthearted Moore films to the more gritty and dark realism of Dalton's).

In fact I think there would actually be something slightly unpleasant about having to "explain" Bond changing now that a black man is in the role but having never felt the need to explain the many, many previous changes.

+1. Completely agree.

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2014, 07:35:46 AM »
I don't see the need to "explain" it.

Leiter went from white to black (as well as using a large number of different actors) and there was no need to explain it. M went from male to female... again no need to explain it. Bond went from the literary character to an obviously Scottish amateur bodybuilder who Fleming himself didn't think was suave enough to play the role to a laconic and smug Australian to a smooth Londoner who would be stereotyped as driving a Jaguar to a Welshman to an Irishman to a guy from North West England... and it was never explained (and that's just the Eon productions). As well as the changing accents and faces the way they've played Bond has been different... sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly at all (with the most obvious being the more comedic and lighthearted Moore films to the more gritty and dark realism of Dalton's).

In fact I think there would actually be something slightly unpleasant about having to "explain" Bond changing now that a black man is in the role but having never felt the need to explain the many, many previous changes.

I see your point there, but on a personal level I feel that strengthens the need for an official explanation rather than weakens it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2014, 07:50:37 AM »
I don't see the need to "explain" it.

Leiter went from white to black (as well as using a large number of different actors) and there was no need to explain it. M went from male to female... again no need to explain it. Bond went from the literary character to an obviously Scottish amateur bodybuilder who Fleming himself didn't think was suave enough to play the role to a laconic and smug Australian to a smooth Londoner who would be stereotyped as driving a Jaguar to a Welshman to an Irishman to a guy from North West England... and it was never explained (and that's just the Eon productions). As well as the changing accents and faces the way they've played Bond has been different... sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly at all (with the most obvious being the more comedic and lighthearted Moore films to the more gritty and dark realism of Dalton's).

In fact I think there would actually be something slightly unpleasant about having to "explain" Bond changing now that a black man is in the role but having never felt the need to explain the many, many previous changes.
Actually it's sort of the unspoken rule of Bond aficionados that you do not try to explain it. You just watch the movies. That's why the archetype of Bond is more important than the individual actors. Though you do get the occasional guy whining about Craig's blond hair in general the opening scene to Casino Royale dispelled a lot of worry. 

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2014, 11:10:50 AM »
Actually, M is very clearly a title, as Dame Judi relates in Skyfall.  (Not going into detail in case someone hasn't seen it.) 

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2015, 10:23:11 AM »
From what I've heard, Daniel Craig is purportedly doing only one more Bond film after Spectre, although no idea if that's legitimate info or not.

Personally I'm of the opinion if it ain't broke don't fix it. Craig is doing very well. I like the new style of Bond and hope they continue in this style.

Offline Atarn

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2015, 09:57:29 AM »
While I like Craig, Idris would be better. One; he's a better actor. Two; he's hell of a lot more suave than the thug Craig plays. Three: The tears of prejudiced fans would be delicious <.<*happy squee*
Besides, he can't be worse than fragging Roger Moore...That guy switched between serious rape vibes and "I'm just doing the Saint all over".

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2015, 03:47:51 PM »
While I like Craig, Idris would be better. One; he's a better actor. Two; he's hell of a lot more suave than the thug Craig plays. Three: The tears of prejudiced fans would be delicious <.<*happy squee*
Besides, he can't be worse than fragging Roger Moore...That guy switched between serious rape vibes and "I'm just doing the Saint all over".

I dunno.. I think the direction of the new movies is cool. Personally.. I'd rather see Idris do his own thing that walk that road. He could make his own franchise..the guy is AWESOME  on film.

Offline Shjade

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2015, 02:16:32 AM »
Actually, M is very clearly a title, as Dame Judi relates in Skyfall.  (Not going into detail in case someone hasn't seen it.)

This.

They pretty directly DO explain M's changes. It's even present when she first appears in Goldeneye in how Bond and the new M aren't comfortable working together yet.

That said? I see no need for this to be explained. Could they? Sure. Should they? If they think it will improve the story.

Need they? No.

Whenever people bring up "BUT MUH CANON" as an argument for this, I have to ask if they were similarly upset about Moses being white in the most recent 10 Commandments movie. Or is it only one-way, this argument?

And is it only for high profile characters? I don't remember hearing anyone express major upset over Ving Rhames being cast as Buddy in Out of Sight, and Buddy was practically defined as a white redneck in the novel - that's who he was. And Ving was great in that movie.

And hey, if we're so upset about canon, why haven't I heard a huge fuss being made over how much the movies change from the Bond books every time? Is some canon more canonical than others?

But I'll set all that aside for a moment so I can ask a simple question: What's the downside to James Bond being black in a new movie?

Offline Atarn

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2015, 03:28:42 AM »
I dunno.. I think the direction of the new movies is cool. Personally.. I'd rather see Idris do his own thing that walk that road. He could make his own franchise..the guy is AWESOME  on film.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think Skyfall is my second favourite Bond movie, but I'd very much like to get me some Elba as Bond ^^. The biggest issue I have with Craig is that he plays Bond like Dalton did in his last movie, and that was about Bond on a revenge spree.

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2015, 07:07:15 AM »
Whenever people bring up "BUT MUH CANON" as an argument for this, I have to ask if they were similarly upset about Moses being white in the most recent just about every 10 Commandments movie ever.

I think that trend is continuous all the way back to Theodore Roberts (1923 release), at least for live action releases.  Val Kilmer and Christian Slater provide his voice in two of the animated versions.  I'm not sure about the guy in Moe and the Big Exit (2007)

Offline Shjade

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2015, 08:46:19 PM »
Oh, I know, Oni, but I wanted to try keeping the context more or less on par to avoid "product of their time" arguments.

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2015, 09:29:02 PM »
'Prince of Egypt' was in 1998 (Val Kilmer voiced Moses and [uncredited] God).  He also played Moses in a stage musical version of the Ten Commandments (non-Disney) in 2006.  Christian Slater's Moses role was in 2007.  So, not exactly limited to the 'quaint Eurocentrism' of Cecil B. DeMille.  There was also a TV miniseries with Burt Lancaster in the title role, but that was in the '70s when everything was weird.

Offline RedPhoenix

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2015, 12:12:33 AM »
Hello. #1 Bond Fangirl (unofficial) checking in here.

There is a not single thing about Bond's character that requires him to be white. Not one single thing. Being British, absolutely. Being a super spy, definitely. Banging hot girls and cheating death at every turn? Totally. Yes the original Bond was white, yes the Bonds that came after him were white. That was never a significant aspect of his character. You can turn him any other color and as long as he's still making quips, catching the bad guy, surviving sure death and being all smooth with a sexy lady or ten afterwards he's still James Bond.

Bond actors change. Nobody needed an explanation for him briefly being George Lazenby and then Sean Connery again (or why his personality completely changed with the actors). Or how there were two bonds for awhile as Sean Connery unofficially was Bond while Roger Moore was officially. Or what if any role Peter Sellers plays in all of this (strangely Woody Allen as Jimmy Bond Jr. or James Bond being a stickler for etiquette who lived in a mansion surrounded by lions never came up again...). Or how he went from svelte suave super spy who killed six people before breafkast to ripped thug with a badge.

Unless you are setting the movie in a time when black people weren't allowed to be British secret agents, there is no reason the character can't be black. I'm pretty sure in 2015 black guys can work for the British government.

This is why Bond was white originally, fyi. Because he HAD to be. Because of the institutional racism is the UK that prevented people of color from being significant and the fact that the perception was that people who read spy novels in the English speaking world were largely racist and Fleming pandered to that audience. This is not a legacy to embrace. If you don't believe me, consider that the Bond books were absurdly racist. That's something the franchise can lose. And not only can but should. You don't see Bond going on about how Britain is lucky it doesn't have as bad of a "black problem" as America does anymore (yes Bond says this in one of the books).

You could probably have a more meaningful discussion about whether a straight woman  or gay man or basically any non gynosexual could be Bond and whether his complete objectification of most women is inherently tied to the character or not. I personally kinda think it is.  I don't think you can have a non-womanizer Bond character. That's probably up for debate. But Bond as a black man? There's no good reason it can't happen if you're following the trend of setting Bond in a enhanced cinematic version of the present day.

And I personally like the "Bond is a title" idea, it explains how he's been active since the 60s without resorting to constantly rebooting the franchise and turning into every comic book ever (and in this 47th version of the Fantastic Four's origin story, we learn how Johnny Blaze feels about rutabagas right before the whatever-we're-calling-cosmic-rays-this-week hits the whatever-invention-they're-in-this-week type crap). Yeah the reboot to explain Daniel Craig was super lame. Super duper lame. I haven't really liked a single one of his movies tbh even though I like him as Bond.

As for Idris Elba, I'm going to have an awful hard time not seeing him as Luther, the roles are similar enough in my head. Which is a silly reason to not like someone in a role, but here we are. I'd actually like to see a younger actor in the role tbh. Craig and Elba are both in their 40s. I don't see enough movies these days to have a pick in mind though.

Also...I really liked the hollywood style bond where bad guys are are building lasers on the moon much more than this real world bond where the bad guys are ....rather legitimately mad about genuine abuses by their own governments...and I'm supposed to root against them? Uhhhh this is what I go to movies to not think about. Bring back the people who made Die Another Day please. Unrepentantly genocidal surgically altered North Korean splinter extremists with diamonds stuck to their faces using the power of a transparently metaphorically named sun-laser to burn the entire planet from outer space...that's a Bond movie villain. Not this evil cardplayer crap. Orson Welles as a fat magician was more sinister (and entertaining) in that role.

Oh, and bring back John Cleese as Q plz. Hell, cast anyone you like as bond as long as I get John Cleese back.

*goes to watch Die Another Day again*