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Author Topic: New James Bond.  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2014, 02:08:46 AM »
Bond is open for interpretation. People dwell too much on what it should or shouldn't be and not letting it speak for itself. Same thing happened with the new Annie. Its a little silly.

Besides, Idris is British, so he already wins in my book.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 02:10:33 AM »
Personally I don't like messing with Canon, because if it wasn't for the cannon, in most cases, the movie would not be made in the first place.  Going around and making huge changes is a slap in the face of fans who have invested time and money into said canon, making it what it is.  Taking a character like Bond and making him black for no other reason then to have a black bond is, well, just plain sad.  If they did say, a mind transfer into a black guy, or some crazy cosmetic surgery, for undercover work (cause seriously, how can every super-villain out there not have a picture of the guy's face, as bond is less then subtle) at least that could be acceptable.

That being said, sometimes you have to take creative licensing.  What makes a good book or a good comic is not the same as making a good movie.  It is a different medium, and has to be adjusted accordingly.

I am a fan of the idea of their being different 007's (as explained earlier), but as I don't think it is canon that might be a hard sell.  I do like the idea of having other 00 agents explored though.  Could make a good series, like 24.
I think its a little silly that you mentioned his race is the only factor them using him. Its a little prejudice and sad. Its like comic book superheroes, there is always more than one and portrayed a billion different ways. There is nothing wrong with a fictional character like BOND to be black. I don't even know thats being brought up.

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 02:46:08 AM »
Quote
I think its a little silly that you mentioned his race is the only factor them using him. Its a little prejudice and sad. Its like comic book superheroes, there is always more than one and portrayed a billion different ways. There is nothing wrong with a fictional character like BOND to be black. I don't even know thats being brought up.

I don't think it's silly, sad at all, or prejudice.  It's just acknowledging and  respecting the fact that Bond is a white English male, and believing that he should continue to be portrayed that way, because that's what he was created to be, and what those who buy the material have supported up to this point.  While the black man in question may be an excellent actor, I don't believe that all capable white actors who could play the role have disappeared or are just that bad in comparison that they need to hire a man of another race to fill what has been up to this point a role played by white men, because the character in question is white.  It would be like making a white Shaft.  Yeah, you could do it, but the fuck why?

Offline Stella

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 03:12:25 AM »
Thanks, Blythe.

Personally I don't like messing with Canon, because if it wasn't for the cannon, in most cases, the movie would not be made in the first place.  Going around and making huge changes is a slap in the face of fans who have invested time and money into said canon, making it what it is.  Taking a character like Bond and making him black for no other reason then to have a black bond is, well, just plain sad.  If they did say, a mind transfer into a black guy, or some crazy cosmetic surgery, for undercover work (cause seriously, how can every super-villain out there not have a picture of the guy's face, as bond is less then subtle) at least that could be acceptable.

I don't agree, because I don't see how changing the character's ethnicity is a 'slap in the face' to fans, or a major change to canon. I also don't view the potential casting of a black man in the role of Bond to be because he's a black man; wouldn't it be because he's the best actor for the role? The person who embodies the characteristics of Bond best? That's far more important.

Bigger changes have been made in the history of James Bond canon than casting. There are massive deviations from the plots of the books to the films. From Russia With Love* (for instance, I've not read them all) in print is alike the film only in name. If I were a massive Bond fan, I'd be way more annoyed at the books I enjoyed not making it to screen intact.


*Edit - I meant The Spy Who Loved Me. Actually, I think I remember FRWL as being one of the more accurate ones..? I can't remember.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 03:18:56 AM by Stella »

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 03:18:04 AM »
I don't think it's silly, sad at all, or prejudice.  It's just acknowledging and  respecting the fact that Bond is a white English male, and believing that he should continue to be portrayed that way, because that's what he was created to be, and what those who buy the material have supported up to this point.  While the black man in question may be an excellent actor, I don't believe that all capable white actors who could play the role have disappeared or are just that bad in comparison that they need to hire a man of another race to fill what has been up to this point a role played by white men, because the character in question is white.  It would be like making a white Shaft.  Yeah, you could do it, but the fuck why?
My question to you is: why the hell does it bother you so much?

Offline Blythe

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2014, 03:21:13 AM »
A question for those a bit more familiar! I am not familiar with Iblis Elba as an actor--what roles has he played as; what has he starred in? Any particularly good ones anyone would recommend I should see him in? I honestly don't think I can have an opinion of him as a potential Bond yet until I see his acting. ^^

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2014, 03:27:08 AM »
@Blythe: besides being known for Luther...

he was also in Thor as the gatekeeper(forgot his name)
Pacific Rim
Prometheus(but the movie itself wasn't all that great)
No Good Deed

hes in been in quite a few things.

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2014, 03:28:24 AM »
Quote
My question to you is: why the hell does it bother you so much?

I thought I was pretty clear on that, but let specifically list them.

1. The character was written as white English male.
2. The character has been up to this point, for the last what 20-40 years, a white English male.
3. The fans, the people who have spent money, financing the Bond franchise, allowing them to profitably create movies and books, have been buying them with the character as being a white English Male.
4. Their has yet to be a good reason presented as to why Bond would suddenly have his race changed.

I'm sure more could be thought up, but those are a good four to start.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2014, 03:30:01 AM »
Ha! Thats what i'm talking about. You're worried so much about the color of his skin.

Its the same thing they did when they found out Annie was being portrayed by a black girl. This is just so damn silly.

Offline Blythe

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2014, 03:30:31 AM »
@Blythe: besides being known for Luther...

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm familiar with that role. Will have to look him up there and see how he did!  :-)

he was also in Thor as the gatekeeper(forgot his name)

That was him? I adored Heimdall in the movie Thor!  :o

Also, huh, yeah, I do remember him from Pacific Rim. I can't believe I forgot about that movie--thank you! ^^

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2014, 03:36:31 AM »
Also, he spent 2 seasons on the Wire, if you ever watched that. He's been quite a few things and I didn't even realize it lol. And you're welcome.

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2014, 03:48:19 AM »
Quote
I don't agree, because I don't see how changing the character's ethnicity is a 'slap in the face' to fans, or a major change to canon. I also don't view the potential casting of a black man in the role of Bond to be because he's a black man; wouldn't it be because he's the best actor for the role? The person who embodies the characteristics of Bond best? That's far more important.

Bigger changes have been made in the history of James Bond canon than casting. There are massive deviations from the plots of the books to the films. From Russia With Love* (for instance, I've not read them all) in print is alike the film only in name. If I were a massive Bond fan, I'd be way more annoyed at the books I enjoyed not making it to screen intact.

If you don't see how changing a white character to a black character is not a major change to canon, I'm really not sure what to say.  As for if he is the best actor for the role, I really have to wonder if that's the case.  As a rule, I'm apposed to the PC alarmists, and generally I think the arguments they make are silly.  That being said, when they it comes to rewriting characters, I'm a little more iffy.  Especially in the case where you have a series, and remember, the Bond franchise is a series.  It's not a stand alone movie,

As for changes between novels and movies, I already touched upon that.  Movies and books don't always translate clearly.  That being said, their usually, IMO has to be a reasonable reason to change canon. 

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2014, 03:59:02 AM »
Just like every Jesus movie is completely white washed

or

The new Exodus movie with a completely white cast...yeah

whatever lol

Offline Kuroneko

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2014, 04:00:30 AM »
As someone who works in the business, I personally think it would be great to have Elba or any other actor of color considered for a role with the kind of name recognition as Bond. It's about time Hollywood caught up with theatre in terms of color blind casting, especially in light of Ridley Scott's recent comments about why he cast white actors in the lead roles in Exodus rather than actors of color, who instead were only cast in stereotypical roles as slaves, etc.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:01:41 AM by Kuroneko »

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2014, 04:05:32 AM »
Quote
Ha! Thats what i'm talking about. You're worried so much about the color of his skin.

Its the same thing they did when they found out Annie was being portrayed by a black girl. This is just so damn silly.

Ha!  You're acting like you stumbled upon some fucking discovery.  I'm not worried, just pointing out the elephant in the room.  Yes, he is black,  And Bond is white.  Ta-da!  That being said, if they tried to use a women for James Bond (Jamie Bond? Jane Bond?  Jules Bond? Jessica Bond?) or somebody like, say the tubby guy from Hot Fuzz, Sean of the Dead, etc or an  English white male in a wheelchair, I would say the same thing.

As far as Annie goes, which seems to have been crucified by critics, that doesn't actually bother me too much, one of the reasons being that Annie is a one shot movie.  It's not part of a continuing series.  For example, Romeo + Juliet is a movie I love, and it had a black man play Mercutio.  I thought the actor in question did a great job, and have been a fan of him ever since.  However, the casting of a black character works in this case, because the writers made it  work.  Ie, it takes place in a contemporary setting and we didn't have a white guy play the role for the first half of the movie. 

You want James Bond to be black?  Fine.  But find a better reason then just: Blah!  He's Black now! 

And On a side note, I have yet to hear some good reasons as to why a black character should be used to portray a canon white character.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:09:43 AM by Cosmo_ac »

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2014, 04:08:05 AM »
Quote
Just like every Jesus movie is completely white washed

or

The new Exodus movie with a completely white cast...yeah

whatever lol

Sorry, was this comment addressed to me?  And if so, what was the point you were trying to make?  Throwing out a few film comments is a bit vague, especially in this case.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2014, 05:24:35 AM »
The fact the only reason you don't like it is because of his skin complexion completely supports my point.

Its okay to have white males portraying people of color, but never the other way around. Its baised, racist, and downright silly. Lets just end this little argument now before it gets ugly.

Offline Lilias

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2014, 05:54:35 AM »
Its the same thing they did when they found out Annie was being portrayed by a black girl. This is just so damn silly.

What did the producers do with all the red hair references in the show?

Offline Cosmo_ac

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2014, 06:04:09 AM »
Quote
The fact the only reason you don't like it is because of his skin complexion completely supports my point.

Its okay to have white males portraying people of color, but never the other way around. Its baised, racist, and downright silly. Lets just end this little argument now before it gets ugly.

If your point is that I don't believe a black person should play a white role in a series of movies based on a series of novels where their character is white and established for many a year, then yeah, but I haven't exactly been shy on that.  Granted, as I already stated, I wouldn't want a women, a person playing somebody who has a physical disability, or somebody who is not at least somewhat physically similar portraying the royal either.

for the record though, I don't support white people taking the roles of black people either.  Generally speaking, I think that roles should stay pretty much how they are written unless there is good reason given. 

Oh, and the fact that I have yet to hear a good reason for a character who is established to be one race be portrayed by another race, supports my point.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 06:14:28 AM by Cosmo_ac »

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2014, 06:39:13 AM »
I understand where you're coming from. But you don't seem to understand why its still to get up in arms over it. Everyone will always know that James Bond was a sexy ass white Englishman and nothing will change that. Have an open mind, go see the movie and then judge it.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2014, 06:40:31 AM »
What did the producers do with all the red hair references in the show?
I don't know, I never watched the new one.

But they mostly changed it to how messy and wild it was. But why should that matter? Every little girl should have someone to look up to. I had to wait until I was 19 years old until I saw a black Disney princess.

Offline SouvlakiSpaceStation

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2014, 07:09:29 AM »
I support this 100% because I will watch anything that will show me Idris Elba in action scenes wearing tight pants that accentuate his glorious booty (I mean have you seen dat booty?), and also because seeing people get mad that characters who were once white are now (insert anything that's not white) fills me with sadistic glee.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 07:13:42 AM by SouvlakiSpaceStation »

Offline Stella

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Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2014, 07:26:06 AM »
If you don't see how changing a white character to a black character is not a major change to canon, I'm really not sure what to say.  As for if he is the best actor for the role, I really have to wonder if that's the case.  As a rule, I'm apposed to the PC alarmists, and generally I think the arguments they make are silly.  That being said, when they it comes to rewriting characters, I'm a little more iffy.  Especially in the case where you have a series, and remember, the Bond franchise is a series.  It's not a stand alone movie,

As for changes between novels and movies, I already touched upon that.  Movies and books don't always translate clearly.  That being said, their usually, IMO has to be a reasonable reason to change canon. 

Well, I don't see it as being a big change to canon, because changing ethnicity doesn't necessarily change the characterisation. We've no idea if that would be a character rewrite - because we haven't seen anything yet.

Offline consortium11

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2014, 08:02:27 AM »
Complaints about changing the canon with relation to Bond strike me as somewhat strange; the Bond of the films is already vastly different to the Bond of the stories and it's not as if characters haven't changed ethnicity within the movie-verse itself; Leiter's gone from white to black already.

Online Vorian

Re: New James Bond.
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2014, 08:15:49 AM »
Just like every Jesus movie is completely white washed

or

The new Exodus movie with a completely white cast...yeah

whatever lol

Personally I'm not fond of the practice going in either direction, and don't feel reversing a racist practice makes it any less questionable. But then I'd also much rather see original stories and characters without so much baggage than endless reboots, remakes, and recasts in most cases. There's also a big difference between a remake set in another time and place, and a continuation of a well established character within a single series - if the new version of the lead character looks nothing like the old within the same continuity I'm going to notice, and it's more than a little jarring if no explanation is offered. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.