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Author Topic: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)  (Read 1457 times)

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Offline The Gothic RavenTopic starter

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2014, 10:38:26 PM »
I've read the Silmarillion several times (it is an interesting if a very dry read) and didn't get the impression that the Noldor, or any of the other Elven waves/clans were banned from Valinor after Melkor/Morgoth was defeated. As far as I know the ban was put in place originally to keep those who left Valinor from returning until after Melkor was dealt with. After he was put down they were free to return if they wanted to and any elf that had never seen Valinor could sail to the land. But only elves, or very close special friends, and the wizards can sail to the land which had been removed from the bounds of the earth. So I don't get the impression any test is needed by any elf to pass into Valinor.

This is going to sound weird, but is it possible that some of what is in the Silmarillion can be open to interpretation? I'm flying blind here about this since I didn't read the books so I mean no offense or to sound ignorant. I'm just generally curious if it is like a lot of other stories that leave it open to possible interpretation? I did read the Wiki page or the webpage with the history and it did mention a curse was placed upon the Noldor and... nevermind. I just re-read it to make sure I had it straight in my head. It mentions the Doom of the Noldor or Curse of Mandos I guess that they were warned that great despair or doom would fall upon them because of their actions I'm assuming.

The Hobbit; The Battle of the Five Armies movie spoliers!

Now that I've seen the movie and aren't basing my interpretation of the relationship between Gandalf and Galadriel there are scenes in the movie that suggest a deeper bond than companionship or even friendship. Maybe its one of those things that fans speculate like with most movies/tv shows/books, but there was just something different about the way Galadriel reacts to Gandalf in the movie. I also thought that perhaps it was something they inserted for the movie only? After all, even an Elven Queen/Lady who is married can still hold other affections, platonic or romantic, for someone else. That's the only other option I can see for it.

Offline Stella

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 12:23:22 AM »
I don't think the Silmarillion is open to interpretation. Tolkien is pretty detailed and exact in most cases. His son, Christopher Tolkien, who has been responsible for publishing (most? all?) of his works post mortem is certainly against interpretations of the source material. From what I heard last, he still does not wish to see any of the films, and the films are not permitted to reference anything from the Silmarillion itself. So all their extended bits and pieces  from from the Lotr appendices, not the Silmarillion itself.

I am writing this from memory, so some of that information may now be outdated.

Zakharra, see this page about the Doom of the Noldor. It explains how they were shunned and the doors to Valinor closed to them. Most Elves were not required to undergo any kind of test to sail to Valinor ... just those who'd royally pissed the Valar off, basically. :p

Offline The Gothic RavenTopic starter

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2014, 12:27:34 AM »
I don't think the Silmarillion is open to interpretation. Tolkien is pretty detailed and exact in most cases. His son, Christopher Tolkien, who has been responsible for publishing (most? all?) of his works post mortem is certainly against interpretations of the source material. From what I heard last, he still does not wish to see any of the films, and the films are not permitted to reference anything from the Silmarillion itself. So all their extended bits and pieces  from from the Lotr appendices, not the Silmarillion itself.

I am writing this from memory, so some of that information may now be outdated.

Zakharra, see this page about the Doom of the Noldor. It explains how they were shunned and the doors to Valinor closed to them. Most Elves were not required to undergo any kind of test to sail to Valinor ... just those who'd royally pissed the Valar off, basically. :p

I thought I'd check on that just in case since some movies from books can have that and with a lot of books, etc. there can be that possibility too.

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2014, 08:26:30 AM »
Christopher Tolkien is the reason that the D&D race is called 'halflings' and not hobbits.  He's very protective of his father's works, in a good way.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2014, 08:38:45 AM »
Christopher Tolkien is the reason that the D&D race is called 'halflings' and not hobbits.  He's very protective of his father's works, in a good way.
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

Goblin
Elf
and yes, even Orc are all pretty ubiquitous. Though I think Uruk-Hai is still in the Tolkien estate. :)

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 09:30:41 AM »
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

The idea of a race of diminutive, human-like beings was fairly common, though, ranging all the way back into Norse mythology (which Tolkien undoubtedly read.)  It was the specific term 'hobbit' that was his creation and got yanked from early D&D.

Offline Beorning

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2014, 12:23:32 PM »
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

Goblin
Elf
and yes, even Orc are all pretty ubiquitous. Though I think Uruk-Hai is still in the Tolkien estate. :)

You know, I really am surprised that D&D (as well as other fantasy writers...) are allowed to use elves, orcs etc. True, elves and goblins existed before Tolkien... but it was Tolkien who created their classic fantasy form. I've never understood how writing about Tolkien-esque elves isn't considered plagiarism...

I know that when I was coming up with stories involving shape-shifting serpentine humanoids, I really did feel that I was plagiarising Howard... Because, in truth, I did take the idea from him. And writers using elves *are* taking the idea from Tolkien...

Online Vorian

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2014, 01:03:07 PM »
Let me ask you this, would you also consider anyone writing stories about certain classic fairy tails to be plagiarizing Disney simply because they've produced the best known adaptation of the material? Because I don't really see the fundamental difference - Elves predate Tolkien and most uses of them I've seen either put their own spin on them, or draw more directly from the original mythology.

Offline Beorning

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2014, 01:32:46 PM »
Let me ask you this, would you also consider anyone writing stories about certain classic fairy tails to be plagiarizing Disney simply because they've produced the best known adaptation of the material? Because I don't really see the fundamental difference - Elves predate Tolkien and most uses of them I've seen either put their own spin on them, or draw more directly from the original mythology.

I'm not an expert on elves, as they aren't part of the folklore back here, but is their mythological version really close to Tolkien's version? I was under the impression that mythological elves were more like Santa's elves or the fairies.

Meanwhile, D&D, as well as at least some of the fantasy fiction, defines elves as immortal / long-living humanoids with an air of mystery to them. That approach is directly taken from Tolkien, I don't think it was part of the folklore...

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2014, 02:07:18 PM »
In a general sense, yes. Tolkien drew heavily on Norse mythology in general as I recall, mixed with some Christian influence. What you're thinking of is more in line with fairies - though there is some overlap in concept, actually.

Offline consortium11

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2014, 08:21:17 AM »
Tolkien's elves come almost entirely from Norse mythology, including the use of similar names for a number of characters/locations. Remember, Tolkien's first love was Norse folklore... as boy he learned Old Norse so he could translate texts in his own time and his professional career went much the same way. Many parts of his work are basically lifted wholesale from Norse folklore; Gandalf is an obvious take on Odin in his wanderer guise, the Balrog and collapsing bridge are near identical to Surt and the collapse of Asgard's bridge, as mentioned the elves (and also the dwarfs) are pretty much identical to the ones found in Norse epic poems and the Rohirrim's culture and language are very close to the Anglo-Saxon's Tolkien spent his life researching and teaching about (to the extent that he paraphrases historical poems). There's also an epic Finnish piece (Kalevala) which has a similar overall plot to Tolkien's work.

In essence what Tolkien did with his work was do a homage to his influences for a modern audience; he's combining and reinterpreting classic European mythology to create folklore of his own.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2014, 05:34:27 PM »
The Lady was a wrath of good Bad Ass come on she pretty much on her own using her ring of power blasted Sauron and the Nine at the same time to the East obliterating his mortal form such as it was -scary!

It did weaken her a lot but come on it was her, the ring in robes and barefoot with two others harassing the Nine buying her time to heal Gandalf and get pissed off, you don't want to piss her off.

But I think they were just good friends.

Offline The Gothic RavenTopic starter

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2014, 02:40:21 PM »
The Lady was a wrath of good Bad Ass come on she pretty much on her own using her ring of power blasted Sauron and the Nine at the same time to the East obliterating his mortal form such as it was -scary!

It did weaken her a lot but come on it was her, the ring in robes and barefoot with two others harassing the Nine buying her time to heal Gandalf and get pissed off, you don't want to piss her off.

But I think they were just good friends.

Yeah that was pretty awesome with how she just zapped Sauron to the East. She was pretty terrifying in an awesome way which was surprising for me since I've only ever watched the movies and seen so little of her.

But, just before then, when she comes to rescue Gandalf, the scene between them is so... intimate. Not necessarily romance, though, but it just seemed very intimate to me. Perhaps it's different for every person who see's it? I definitely think there is a strong bond between them it's just hard to figure out what it could be since there are a few possibilities like the rings they share being twins or whatnot.

I really want to rewatch the battle of the five armies though because I saw it in 3D and it ruined some of it for me. The scenes were just weird in 3D when they weren't in battle.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2014, 06:59:00 AM »
I'm a little miffed with the ending of the Hobbit movies because they took some liberties with who did and did not survive the Battle of the Five Armies.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Namely, I'm pretty sure no one in the dwarf party died.

So by the end of the film my eyes were rolling nonstop. :P

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2014, 07:05:17 AM »
The movies followed the books closely in this matter, Inki.


They did change the cause/reason, but not the numbers.

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2014, 07:15:13 AM »
I'm a little miffed with the ending of the Hobbit movies because they took some liberties with who did and did not survive the Battle of the Five Armies.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Namely, I'm pretty sure no one in the dwarf party died.

So by the end of the film my eyes were rolling nonstop. :P

I remember many deaths, and a conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf about that when Bilbo showed back up, as well as Thorin's speech starting 'O child of the kindly West'

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2014, 07:22:09 AM »
I remember many deaths, and a conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf about that when Bilbo showed back up, as well as Thorin's speech starting 'O child of the kindly West'
Well I stand corrected. I haven't read the book in a couple of years (despite having read it 30 times for my thesis, but I wasn't looking for actual deaths only party motivations).


Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2014, 11:11:46 AM »
Yeah, I do remember that Thorin and his closer kin die, and I was afraid that they would try to take that out of the movie to make it more of a happy ending, since Thorin was such a popular character. But he dies, Dain Ironfoot takes his place as King Under the Mountain, and plays a pretty big part in the War for the North.

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2014, 12:49:39 PM »
It does provide one of the fairytale 'morals' to the story. 

Child of the kindly West, I have come to know, if more of us valued your ways - food and cheer above hoarded gold - it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell.

* Oniya always gets a little misty-eyed at that line.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 03:35:14 PM »
Finally watched Hobbit movies(three hour movies.)

Is it me, or did Thorin's size change between the movies? He was like human tall/ tall as Gandalf than somewhere he was much shorter. >.< Like when they got to human village he was shorter and just slightly taller than the dwarves. But in the first movie he stood as tall as Gandalf/the Orc Azog and I think he was same height through earlier portion of second movie.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2015, 03:46:26 PM »
Finally watched Hobbit movies(three hour movies.)

Is it me, or did Thorin's size change between the movies? He was like human tall/ tall as Gandalf than somewhere he was much shorter. >.< Like when they got to human village he was shorter and just slightly taller than the dwarves. But in the first movie he stood as tall as Gandalf/the Orc Azog and I think he was same height through earlier portion of second movie.
The size difference between Kili and Tauriel changed all the time in the last movie. I think it's the problem of the doubles mingling in and the actual actors kneeling when interaction is needed and camera angle can't suffice.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 05:16:46 PM »
The size difference between Kili and Tauriel changed all the time in the last movie. I think it's the problem of the doubles mingling in and the actual actors kneeling when interaction is needed and camera angle can't suffice.

I didn't notice theirs, they seemed less obvious in their height, but Thorin, man did he shrunk suddenly. Guess long adventuring makes ruling dwarves shorter. Hell, when I first saw him in the first movie I wondered what was a human doing in a dwarf clan. >.>

Offline Beorning

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2015, 04:45:16 PM »
So... I just watched The Battle of Five Armies.

Hmm. It was... a fine movie, I guess. Although it did leave quite cold, I must say. Somehow, for me, it didn't have the magic of the LOTR trilogy. Maybe I've just grown out of Tolkien...

I especially didn't like the way that purging of Dol Guldur was done. In the book, it was said (IIRC) that the White Council ousted Sauron from there. White Council... as in, all of the wizards, right? I've always assumed some kind of military force assisted them there, too. Meanwhile, in the movie, Jackson made it so that Sauron was defeated just by Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman. Who arrive them completely on their own. Come on, wouldn't they take some elven bodyguards with them, at least?

Also, while I did like the way Jackson presented Sauron's form, I didn't like his duel with Galadriel. Too much obvious, flashy magic! Galadriel's distorted voice and glowing eyes were just cheap. The whole sequence was something out of a kitschy comic book movie...

BTW. Am I the only one that finds the idea of Galadriel arriving to Dol Guldur only in a light robe and *barefoot*... silly?

Oh, and another observation: don't you think that the orcs were mightly nerfed in this movie? They were presented as big and scary... way bigger and scarier then the orcs in LOTR. Many of them were quite heavily armoured, too. And yet... they kept being defeated quite easily. It really strained my belief that these orcs... these trained warriors bred for war... couldn't defeat Bard's people. Who were tired, hungry and completely untrained...

BTW 2.: These CGI orcs looked way less convincing that the orcs from LOTR...

It's not that I'm complaining - it was an entertaining movie. It's just that there were details that seemed off to me...

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2015, 05:43:38 PM »
The White Council is consisting of the ringbearers of the three Elven rings and most of the Istari - the Wizards - that were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/White_Council

That means: Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel and Radagast (and Glorfindel, but he was generally erased from the movie-verse) and they were all present in the scene and influenced it. The Council is secret, used by the forces of good to be up-to-date on what the forces of evil are doing, so the fewer people that know about them and what they are doing where, the better.

I agree that Glorfindel could have been there and Elrond would definitely take his sons Elladan and Elrohir, were they not completely erased from the movie-verse too. But otherwise it still applies that the council is secret. I am glad I finally saw Elrond wield a sword, but I would have really liked to see Galadriel show us what she can do with a sword. Given events in Silmarillion, I find it entirely possible, though, that she renounced fighting, but that's just a speculation, but it would explain why she's not suited up in any kind of armor and barefoot (since she pretty much does walk around barefoot). Come to think of it, Saruman wasn't armed to the teeth either.

Galadriel doesn't wield magic. Her only "power" is telepathy (the best word I can come up with for her power) and mental resistance coming from having to live with it for thousands of years. Since Sauron at this point wasn't corporeal anymore and only his mind existed, she was probably the best person to choose in the battle of minds. I took the whole scene as more symbolic - to battle evil you need to descend into the deepest darkest corners of your soul and she did just that, used arendil's light as a token to strengthen her and guide her, then threw it all at Sauron and hoped for the best.

Basically, the only thing she did was win a loud argument.

There are various breeds (and cross breeds) of Orcs - http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs - and generally they aren't particularly smart in any of their variation, their strength lies in their overwhelmingly larger numbers.

Personally, I liked the CGI on Azog and Bolg a lot more than I did the prosthetics on Lurtz and Uglk in LotR. I feel like it impaired the actors way too much.

Offline Beorning

Re: Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2015, 06:34:26 PM »
The White Council is consisting of the ringbearers of the three Elven rings and most of the Istari - the Wizards - that were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/White_Council

That means: Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel and Radagast (and Glorfindel, but he was generally erased from the movie-verse) and they were all present in the scene and influenced it.

Ah, but note that the LOTR Wiki you linked to also mentions Cirdan... as well as other unnamed members :)

Quote
The Council is secret, used by the forces of good to be up-to-date on what the forces of evil are doing, so the fewer people that know about them and what they are doing where, the better.

I agree that Glorfindel could have been there and Elrond would definitely take his sons Elladan and Elrohir, were they not completely erased from the movie-verse too. But otherwise it still applies that the council is secret.

I'd say that there are ways of operating in secret... For once, Elrond and Galadriel could have easily find a small cadre of trustworthy warriors that would assist them without boasting about it all around the Middle-Earth :) Overall, I really can't buy into the idea of all these important and influential people going into deadly combat completely on their own. They aren't superheroes who defeat the forces of evil all by themselves.

Quote
Galadriel doesn't wield magic. Her only "power" is telepathy (the best word I can come up with for her power) and mental resistance coming from having to live with it for thousands of years. Since Sauron at this point wasn't corporeal anymore and only his mind existed, she was probably the best person to choose in the battle of minds. I took the whole scene as more symbolic - to battle evil you need to descend into the deepest darkest corners of your soul and she did just that, used arendil's light as a token to strengthen her and guide her, then threw it all at Sauron and hoped for the best.

But, if Galadriel doesn't wield any magic, then what did she do to that orc she saved Gandalf from? She seemed to blast him with some sort of magic energy wave...

Quote
There are various breeds (and cross breeds) of Orcs - http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs - and generally they aren't particularly smart in any of their variation, their strength lies in their overwhelmingly larger numbers.

I can agree that orcs aren't necessarily smart... but they surely are tough and savage fighters. They really should've put up a better fight, especially against the people of Laketown...

Quote
Personally, I liked the CGI on Azog and Bolg a lot more than I did the prosthetics on Lurtz and Uglk in LotR. I feel like it impaired the actors way too much.

Really? When it comes to me, I absolutely loved Lurtz, as well as Gothmog. They really looked close to what I picture orcs like in my head. Azog and Bolg looked like something out of a computer game... also, Bolg's armour was just ridiculous.