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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 135216 times)

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Offline Xanatos

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #500 on: April 05, 2015, 02:33:12 PM »
Actually, changing a hero's skin color is all about political correctness. Just last night, I watched the Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies. In one scene, albeit small, I saw an Asian woman. What was so strking was that she was blatantly out of place and prominently featured in the short scene. Why? The rest of the cast is white to the hilt. Any placement, without good reason, is blatant political correctness. Look at TV ads, Magazine ads, anything commercial with people in it. I can guarantee you that if there is more than one person, there will be either a Black, Asian, or Hispanic person alongside a White. Sometimes there might not even be a White person. While America certainly is a diverse nation, it is still not very realistic for such diversity. There are still countless regions where White people are the vast majority or only have a small mix of Black or Hispanic.

Changing Fury to a Black man, as cool as Samuel L Jackson is, was utterly blatant on Marvel's part. There is literally no excuse and no reason why they did it other than for political correctness sake.

There is also another reason changing ethnicity gets such a huge outcry, having nothing to do with racism or even political correctness - to an extent. Its pure demographics. Hispanics, Blacks, and some Asians, are largely poor and cannot afford to buy things beyond food, clothing, and bare necessities. White people, for whatever reason, are still the most capable of buying beyond simple need. Thus why most hero's were and still are White. Its simple appeal to an audience. Its all about the money. Trying to appeal to an audience that cannot afford to buy the intended product, is the surest way for a company to tank and quick.

While I find women from all ethnic backgrounds appealing, I'm still drawn first to a White woman. Why? Because they are the most common and what I am most used too. Realistically speaking, a White woman is likely the only woman I could get without experiencing some kind of racist hardship or whatever else could crop up when crossing the ethic border. Hispanics and Blacks are especially racist when a White man tries to woo one of their women. Yet, if one of their men woos a White woman, they don't complain. Nor do most White people. How does this apply to comics? White men like White women - mostly. White Women, like White men - mostly. There are Whites who like other ethnic groups, but for any ethnicity, its always going to be more common for a group to marry within the group and not outside of it. No matter how accepting a society is of mixed marriages/pairings.

So, after all of that, yes Political Correctness is the biggest - if not sole reason - for why comic book hero's are getting ethnic changes. To be perfectly blunt, without trying to be insulting, to think otherwise is foolish and ignoring what is happening in the United States. Political Correctness is at its pinnacle right now. It has infiltrated every aspect of life. It cannot be escaped.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:36:56 PM by Xanatos »

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #501 on: April 05, 2015, 02:35:37 PM »
Actually, changing a hero's skin color is all about political correctness. Just last night, I watched the Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies. In one scene, albeit small, I saw an Asian woman. What was so strking was that she was blatantly out of place and prominently featured in the short scene. Why? The rest of the cast is white to the hilt. Any placement, without good reason, is blatant political correctness. Look at TV ads, Magazine ads, anything commercial with people in it. I can guarantee you that if there is more than one person, there will be either a Black, Asian, or Hispanic person alongside a White. Sometimes there might not even be a White person. While America certainly is a diverse nation, it is still not very realistic for such diversity. There are still countless regions where White people are the vast majority or only have a small mix of Black or Hispanic.

Changing Fury to a Black man, as cool as Samuel L Jackson is, was utterly blatant on Marvel's part. There is literally no excuse and no reason why they did it other than for political correctness sake.

There is also another reason changing ethnicity gets such a huge outcry, having nothing to do with racism or even political correctness - to an extent. Its pure demographics. Hispanics, Blacks, and some Asians, are largely poor and cannot afford to buy things beyond food, clothing, and bare necessities. White people, for whatever reason, are still the most capable of buying beyond simple need. Thus why most hero's were and still are White. Its simple appeal to an audience. Its all about the money. Trying to appeal to an audience that cannot afford to buy the intended product, is the surest way for a company to tank and quick.

While I find women from all ethnic backgrounds appealing, I'm still drawn first to a White woman. Why? Because they are the most common and what I am most used too. Realistically speaking, a White woman is likely the only woman I could get without experiencing some kind of racist hardship or whatever else could crop up when crossing the ethic border. Hispanics and Blacks are especially racist when a White man tries to woo one of their women. Yet, if one of their men woos a White woman, they don't complain. Nor do most White people.

So, after all of that, yes Political Correctness is the biggest - if not sole reason - for why comic book hero's are getting ethnic changes. To be perfectly blunt, without trying to be insulting, to think otherwise is foolish and ignoring what is happening in the United States. Political Correctness is at its pinnacle right now. It has infiltrated every aspect of life. It cannot be escaped.
I don’t know man. Your post sounds kind of racist.

Offline Xanatos

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #502 on: April 05, 2015, 02:45:14 PM »
LOL. What a racist remark. Please think before you spout that - its actually can be argued that it is racist to so quickly call someone racist. It shows the same lack of understanding and hatred that makes racism racism.

Capitalism goes beyond racism - though doesn't mean it can't be influenced. Look at Hollywood. Perfect example. Even with Political Correctness at its pinnacle, Hollywood has hardly been phased. Why? Money. Why? Because the biggest audience is White. Whether American or European. The Asian market, thanks to China is growing, but Hollywood has yet and cannot really penetrate it yet for two very large reasons. Chinese like different types of movies and the Communist government blocks/bans a lot of movies. So this means Hollywood will resort to what sells.

Much of why White still dominates isn't racism. Its pure cold hard cash.

The only reason Political Correctness can even penetrate Hollywood on small levels is due to such insane and ludicrous pressure from groups claiming racism with anything they can preceivably claim is racist - like your statement. I merely offered a realistic and logical explanation that is easily backed up, and yet the first thing you said was I sounded racist.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:47:12 PM by Xanatos »

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #503 on: April 05, 2015, 02:52:15 PM »
Because you did. Categorically stating that “Hispanics, Blacks, and some Asians, are largely poor” is a vast generalization and part of the basic dictionary definition of racism.

But more to the point. Yes, whites likely have the largest purchasing power in the United States (I wouldn’t know, I’m Canadian) but you forget: minority groups still represent huge portions of the market. Many studios seek to tap into the “urban market” (a polite way of saying “black people”), and some say that is the reason George Lucas cast Samuel L. Jackson in the Star Wars prequels. Some argue that African-Americans otherwise wouldn’t much care for Star Wars (given that apparently the only black guy in a galaxy far, far away is Lando Calrissian :D ).

Regardless, I’m not saying major studios are racist or whatever. What I actually said was that the fanboys who freak out every time a comic book character has a different race (like the idiots whining about Michael B. Jordan being cast in the Fantastic 4 reboot) are probably more racist than they’d like to admit.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #504 on: April 05, 2015, 03:11:25 PM »
Excerpts in order:

Actually, changing a hero's skin color is all about political correctness. Just last night, I watched the Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies. In one scene, albeit small, I saw an Asian woman. What was so strking was that she was blatantly out of place and prominently featured in the short scene. Why? The rest of the cast is white to the hilt.

Either racism, or just a lack of knowledge of Tolkein's setting. There are non-white peoples in Middle-Earth, all of whom are lumped under the category 'Easterlings'. So you see PC, people who know Tolkein see awareness of the world he built.

Quote
There are still countless regions where White people are the vast majority or only have a small mix of Black or Hispanic.

And there are equally countless regions where White people are the minority...a larger portion of the Earth than where they are the majority. Those are powerful potential markets for a company that reflects their local reality, not just yours.

We live in a world where a black man is elected President of the United States, when 50 years ago black men were attacked with fire hoses for sitting at lunch counters. When a non-white person can become the leader of the most powerful democratic nation on Earth, why can't a non-white person be a superhero as well?

Quote
Changing Fury to a Black man, as cool as Samuel L Jackson is, was utterly blatant on Marvel's part. There is literally no excuse and no reason why they did it other than for political correctness sake.
Or, from a non-racist angle, because Samuel L. Jackson is/was a well-known memetic 'badass' actor when Ultimate Marvel was released, and the artist decided to use Jackson's likeness to fit the general Ultimate art/writing style of everyone being more XTREME and BADASS and AWESOME?

Quote
. Hispanics, Blacks, and some Asians, are largely poor and cannot afford to buy things beyond food, clothing, and bare necessities.

Broad-based stereotype of multiple ethnic groups.

Quote
Hispanics and Blacks are especially racist when a White man tries to woo one of their women. Yet, if one of their men woos a White woman, they don't complain.

Blatant and somewhat insulting cultural stereotyping.

And the 'you're just being racist for calling me racist' is a classical defense of racists as well. To be quite blatant, and a bit un-PC myself, your post is only a dozen or so ethnic slurs short of being suitable alongside the more coherent public-statement manifestos from the Klu Klux Klan or similar groups. Maybe you're not personally a racist, but your drive against political correctness is coming off as extremely racist.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 03:13:41 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #505 on: April 05, 2015, 03:14:19 PM »
Or, from a non-racist angle, because Samuel L. Jackson is/was a well-known 'badass' actor when Ultimate Marvel was released, and the author decided to use Jackson's likeness?
Jackson actually asked for the role in any future movies after seeing the Ultimate version of Nick Fury.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #506 on: April 05, 2015, 03:16:33 PM »
Jackson actually asked for the role in any future movies after seeing the Ultimate version of Nick Fury.

Indeed. They didn't ask him for the likeness at first, the movie roles were part of the retroactive negotiation to let them keep using his image.

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #507 on: April 05, 2015, 03:20:27 PM »
I mean, I’m a white male and even I want to see more diversity. I don’t want non-white heroes because I think racial diversity should be mandatory. I just don’t see what difference it makes, other than cosmetic, if Superman is black, white, or Malaysian.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #508 on: April 05, 2015, 03:25:58 PM »
I mean, I’m a white male and even I want to see more diversity. I don’t want non-white heroes because I think racial diversity should be mandatory. I just don’t see what difference it makes, other than cosmetic, if Superman is black, white, or Malaysian.

Since this whole thing started with Aquaman, I'm not sure why he had to be white in the first place other than the fact that he was originally written in the 40's, when most people were racists. He's natively half-Atlantean, a culture that was settled millions of years ago (DC time) and isolated for much of human history.

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #509 on: April 05, 2015, 03:42:51 PM »
It makes me ashamed to say this, but whenever I discuss the upcoming DC movies, I always end up saying “I hope it’ll be good.”

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #510 on: April 05, 2015, 03:43:29 PM »
Because you did. Categorically stating that “Hispanics, Blacks, and some Asians, are largely poor” is a vast generalization and part of the basic dictionary definition of racism.

But more to the point. Yes, whites likely have the largest purchasing power in the United States (I wouldn’t know, I’m Canadian) but you forget: minority groups still represent huge portions of the market. Many studios seek to tap into the “urban market” (a polite way of saying “black people”), and some say that is the reason George Lucas cast Samuel L. Jackson in the Star Wars prequels. Some argue that African-Americans otherwise wouldn’t much care for Star Wars (given that apparently the only black guy in a galaxy far, far away is Lando Calrissian :D ).

Regardless, I’m not saying major studios are racist or whatever. What I actually said was that the fanboys who freak out every time a comic book character has a different race (like the idiots whining about Michael B. Jordan being cast in the Fantastic 4 reboot) are probably more racist than they’d like to admit.

This is getting kind of ridiculous. No one's meeting half-way like I tried my best to do, which shows that the door swings both ways, folks.

Nick Fury being white originally doesn't make it wrong for him to appear portrayed as black now for, in my book, 2 reasons. First, his son Nick Fury Jr., aka Marcus Johnson, was black and looks a hell of a lot like...my second reason, the Ultimate comics version of Nick Fury. So the fact that they pretty much just merged this in the comics prior to having it on screen gave me time to get to know the character (I didn't know the white Nick Fury too well except what was on the Spider-Man cartoon in the 1990s) and so when it came time for Samuel L. Jackson to start rocking that eyepatch, I was down with that and he pulled it off and continued to do so with aplomb. Any dissing of what decisions were made in regards to that would have to be founded in racism, so, sorry, but Marvel covered their asses quite nicely at least in that one aspect as far as not being 100% political correctness motivated. And again, I say this as having the highest priority being remaining faithful to the comics.

Here's the other thing: I have no problem with the SUPERHERO itself changing race. Both white Peter Parker and Hispanic/black Miles Morales are Spider-Man. But if you want to have a guy who would look more appropriate to play Miles Morales to instead be cast as Peter Parker, now you're going too far. This is another easy, elegant solution to the problem of character race-swapping that should satisfy everybody: Just invent a new secret identity for that superhero behind the mask or whatever, have them assume the mantle and let the original person or whatever retire from the spotlight and move on, sort of like how in the Ant-Man movie, Hank Pym is retired and is helping Scott Lang take up the role of Ant-Man (except there's no race-swapping going on there, though there shouldn't be since both Pym and Lang were Caucasian in the comics anyway). Most superheroes have multiple people assuming that identity anyway, so why not add some flavor to the roster of a few more and let us get to know them on the printed page and then give them a turn on the big screen? Nobody should have a problem with this, should they?

Changing Johnny Storm into an African-American just out of the blue, though, was just a really poor, shallow decision because mainly it changes the entire Storm family dynamic, and gives no good reason beyond what I am sorry to say is nothing more than transparent affirmative-action style pandering. That kind of thing never gets a good rap because it denigrates the person it benefits whether they like it or not, and gives people a negative attitude about them even if they have the talent. I happen to have loved Michael B. Jordan's performance in Chronicle, and he already got to have superpowers, so I respect him as an actor and have no reason not to think he'd do a good job as Johnny Storm but for the fact that so much has to change for that to work in the movie, and I can't accept all that (although to be fair, if they just made the entire Storm family black so there's none of that adoption crap given as the reason Sue and Johnny aren't the same race, I'd be less unhappy since then that at least repairs the fractured family dynamic). There are so many other characters he could have played in other movies if he wants to be an actual comic book superhero, like X-Men and things that have yet to be green-lit or maybe even some of the TV series that are planned. Shoehorning that into the already poorly planned F4 reboot is not cool and he should know that. What needs to happen is minority superheroes getting more exposure and then we'll have plenty of appropriate actors to play them the way they were intended in the comics. The solution is NOT to just 'blackface' established characters to fill what I agree is certainly an unmet need. There are so many different creative avenues around this extremely undesirable one, but nobody in the business seems to want to do that, I guess, and if that's the case, shame on them. Does that still sound racist?

If this still comes across as racist, consider this: What if people started saying someone white should play T'Challa, the Black Panther? If the actor portraying him is talented beyond Chadwick Boseman's ability, isn't it only right that the part go to the best possible actor? Fuck no! The person playing the character should be as true to the comics as possible. Hell, I was initially pissed off about Benedict Cumberbatch being cast as Doctor Strange, and I fucking LOVE that guy as an actor. I just don't think he's got the right look. But he's still white, so it clearly isn't a race issue. It's simply a measure of accuracy to the comics. And at least to me, it isn't just about keeping whites in the majority, we fans today weren't the ones who wrote the fucking comics to be that way back when they were first published, and anyway, we venerate the black, Asian and other ethnicity superheroes as much as the white ones when we see them in the stories (or at least I do; hell, I was keeping my eyes on War Machine that whole final battle of Iron Man 2, he was way more badass than Iron Man).

And furthermore, I'm angry that Falcon was not given the same powers he got in the comics during The Winter Soldier. THAT feels like an injustice that I'm not able to come up with any excuse for other than maybe they didn't want the idea of the minority superheroes getting too much power this soon. But with any luck they'll amend that during Civil War. They also pretty much cleaned him up because he was a criminal in the comics before that and they gave him a pretty squeaky-clean background in this one. We wouldn't want to portray blacks as stereotypes, would we? Okay, that probably sounds racist but as far as character backstories and overall story arcs are concerned, obviously there need to be liberties taken so I'm fine with them fudging those type of things to make the movie universe mesh as smoothly as possible. When I see the character on the screen though, I want to be harkened back to seeing the ones on the pages of the comics without having to even think about it. I can't do that with MBJ as the Human Torch (not that I'm going to waste my time on that movie anyway).

Phew...I hope I covered all the bases. While I do agree with the whole 'that's how it was back in the day' thing, I disagree with the current business aspect of whitewashing things for the sake of appealing to a larger audience. There are other things they can be doing and having Black Panther is a good start as far as having a black superhero's name on an MCU movie title, so hopefully this trend strengthens and doesn't go the shallow route.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #511 on: April 05, 2015, 03:54:24 PM »
Nah, pretty much everything you've got there is accurate, particularly the bit about Johnny Storm. But then, I'm just used to F4 movies sucking anyways, particularly this upcoming one, so it's just icing on the terrible cake.

As for Falcon, bird-themed superpowers would have, IMO, felt very out of place in the 'pseudo-realism' of the MCU's established heroes. They're gradually getting more diverse in origin stories, particularly with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch inbound, but till now we had super-soldier serums that made you physically awesome and/or breath fire, mechanical augments and power suits, aliens from other dimensions, and radiation-related lab accidents. The effects of the Cosmic Cube (bad) on living people was already established in The First Avenger, so it would have been a retcon anyways. And frankly, talking to birds is a little silly, though not as silly as talking to fish...a more comics-accurate Falcon would have hurt the overall movie, I think. Keeping his wing-pack as the focus of the character made him fit better into the mythos they've built, and was plenty cool enough.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 03:56:27 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #512 on: April 05, 2015, 04:00:22 PM »
Whomever decided to make Sue and Johnny Storm different races needs their head examined. But I can tell you why they did it that way. If they stick close to the comics, Sue is going to end up with Reed Richards (who is white). America still can’t handle interracial couples. Look at the reaction to that Cheerios commercial last year.

We wanna talk about stereotypes, remember the time DC created a Middle Eastern Green Lantern? And then gave him a ski mask and a gun?

And I am aggressively blasé (if that’s even possible) about the new F4 movie. The trailer didn’t help. It’s boring as hell and tells me virtually nothing.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #513 on: April 05, 2015, 04:05:07 PM »
Whomever decided to make Sue and Johnny Storm different races needs their head examined. But I can tell you why they did it that way. If they stick close to the comics, Sue is going to end up with Reed Richards (who is white). America still can’t handle interracial couples. Look at the reaction to that Cheerios commercial last year.

We wanna talk about stereotypes, remember the time DC created a Middle Eastern Green Lantern? And then gave him a ski mask and a gun?

And I am aggressively blasé (if that’s even possible) about the new F4 movie. The trailer didn’t help. It’s boring as hell and tells me virtually nothing.

Simon Baz? (yes, I had to look it up). Yeah, compare that to Marvel's Dust. More DC disasters there.

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #514 on: April 05, 2015, 04:38:49 PM »
Man, I remember Dust. Now there is a character I would like to see in X-Men: Apocalypse or future Fox productions.

Offline Sasquatch421

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #515 on: April 05, 2015, 05:49:11 PM »
I heard about that too, but I still felt the overall movie was underwhelming anyway. Whether or not the symbiote being around meant Venom was going to be there in the end or just wait until the next movie, all the crap it made Peter do just annoyed the heck out of me. And we still can't have an Ant-Man in the style of the original because of a little slap that Spidey got away with not having to endure half the crap Hank Pym did.

I admit there stuff in the film I didn't like, like say bringing Gwen after spending 2 movies setting up M.J. Though I really didn't like the Kirsten version, but then I remember MJ going to town on a Normie Osborn Green Goblin with a frying pan in the MC2 Series. I liked Bryce Dallas Howard, but bringing her in just didn't set well with me... I did enjoy Thomas Hayden Church as the Sandman though. I've been a Marvel fan since the mid-80's read Spider-Man when Stan Lee wrote him in the daily newspaper comic strip, watched Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends and even watched the Electric Company for the live action Spidey shorts they did. Also I do remember Superfriends (totally squeed when they brought the Wonder Twins to Smallville) and Guardians of the Earth.

Sandman though has switched sides multiple times before villain and hero... Though when your working with the Silver Sable who can blame him? I just thought he nailed it pretty well, but that's just me... I'll even admit to there was some things I liked about X-Men Origins: Wolverine like Liev as Sabertooth, kinda reminded me of the AOA version by his looks and of course I actually liked Taylor Kitsch as Gambit as well... (Can't really wrap my head around Channing Tatum as Remy, but that's just me...)

Honestly most things are just opinions anymore.... Not everyone has the same views... Nobody playing Clark Kent will ever win when so many people compare it to the old Superman movies. I never watched the George Reeves series, so I can't comment but I do know where I can buy them so perhaps I should pick them up and watch? Could always try and see if Dean Cain can fit back into the tights?


Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #516 on: April 05, 2015, 10:02:30 PM »
Nah, pretty much everything you've got there is accurate, particularly the bit about Johnny Storm. But then, I'm just used to F4 movies sucking anyways, particularly this upcoming one, so it's just icing on the terrible cake.

As for Falcon, bird-themed superpowers would have, IMO, felt very out of place in the 'pseudo-realism' of the MCU's established heroes. They're gradually getting more diverse in origin stories, particularly with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch inbound, but till now we had super-soldier serums that made you physically awesome and/or breath fire, mechanical augments and power suits, aliens from other dimensions, and radiation-related lab accidents. The effects of the Cosmic Cube (bad) on living people was already established in The First Avenger, so it would have been a retcon anyways. And frankly, talking to birds is a little silly, though not as silly as talking to fish...a more comics-accurate Falcon would have hurt the overall movie, I think. Keeping his wing-pack as the focus of the character made him fit better into the mythos they've built, and was plenty cool enough.

Talking to birds? No. But having a link with them that would entice them to follow his commands? Fuck yeah! Think how cool it would have been for him to have even a fraction of Cap's full power (Rumlow could have been the product of an artificial insemination from Red Skull's sperm done by HYDRA to create an heir; then he wouldn't necessarily have the full strength either, and the fight between him and Falcon would be more entertaining) AND be able to, a la Batman's summoning of 'backup' in Batman Begins, have a flock of dozens or hundreds of angry avians storming over the surface of the helicarriers, distracting HYDRA agents so it would be more plausible that everyone could deliver their chips without interference. Then if he could just also experience some short-term levitation until he really got it under control and didn't always have to rely on the harness...THAT would truly be awesome. So fucked up they didn't want to go that route.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #517 on: April 05, 2015, 10:06:46 PM »
Cooler, yes. But justifying it would have been very difficult in the grounded paradigm they've established for the MCU, compared to the 'anything goes because reasons' origin-story buffet line of print comics; I think the movie would have suffered as a whole for the sake of that one character' authenticity. So I'm satisfied with the wingpack as 'good enough' - a true depiction of Falcon, just an incomplete one.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #518 on: April 05, 2015, 10:15:09 PM »
You know...if they plan to kill Thor off either against Thanos or some other point. They should have his hammer just simply be shattered to pieces. Can you imagine the impact having the unstoppable weapon in Marvel just destroyed before its wielder as he meet's his end?! Talk about major impact the danger Thanos yields.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #519 on: April 06, 2015, 08:24:14 AM »
Cooler, yes. But justifying it would have been very difficult in the grounded paradigm they've established for the MCU, compared to the 'anything goes because reasons' origin-story buffet line of print comics; I think the movie would have suffered as a whole for the sake of that one character' authenticity. So I'm satisfied with the wingpack as 'good enough' - a true depiction of Falcon, just an incomplete one.

Meh. Here's how I would have done it:
Sam and Riley (the partner who died) are both volunteering for the pararescue thing they worked in. It requires certain enhancements to be made which they think are just steroids or something but it turns out to be a HYDRA scheme to add more people like the Winter Soldier to their ranks and they're running low on test subjects. They try to resist when they find out they've been duped but are both brainwashed into forgetting it BUT they are allowed to return to the military to continue testing the harnesses and such which require a neural link that starts Sam's ability to link with avians. They are both sleeper agents, however, and can be triggered at HYDRA's choosing. It also suppresses their superior speed and strength to a degree. Riley's side effects are that he becomes more aggressive and reckless and that's what gets him killed, so Sam got the better deal out of his being a guinea pig. Sam is triggered by HYRDA when the big battle starts but Rumlow cancels it and returns Sam to his normal self (still with his fully active powers) because Rumlow (the one I described earlier who was the test-tube son of the Red Skull) doesn't like that Pierce's HYDRA isn't doing enough like his father and wants to form it in his own image and take over the helicarriers for himself. Sam refuses and takes off to complete his part of the mission, using his bird strike as a distraction. Then when he and Rumlow are fighting, the floor collapses beneath Sam and Rumlow thinks he's won, but Sam slowly floats up out of it even with the harness destroyed. It gives Sam a nosebleed, but he saves himself and Rumlow is stunned enough for Sam to deal him the finishing blow and lets Rumlow get hammered by the helicarrier crashing into the Triskelion.`Rumlow actually dies, though.

You know...if they plan to kill Thor off either against Thanos or some other point. They should have his hammer just simply be shattered to pieces. Can you imagine the impact having the unstoppable weapon in Marvel just destroyed before its wielder as he meet's his end?! Talk about major impact the danger Thanos yields.

Nah. Cap's the only other one who's really worthy to lift it, he could use it if Thor's incapacitated (dead or otherwise) and with his shield he'd look like one of the more historical soldiers that used both a shield and a melee weapon. I already mentioned how cool it would be for him to try to take on Thanos, still be outmatched, and become empowered and transform into Captain Universe. I don't think a Deus ex Machina type thing would be inappropriate in the MCU, though people would probably still criticize it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:27:36 AM by Mathim »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #520 on: April 06, 2015, 11:42:08 AM »
I can't be the only one that sees Cap as one of the most boring characters in the MCU as of now, right? All the other heroes have some sort of conflict, some sort of inner demon or another, whereas he's the boyscout.

And as for him being worthy to lift Thor's hammer, I call bull. That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in the Comics, and I would hate to see that in the movies.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:43:28 AM by Deamonbane »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #521 on: April 06, 2015, 11:58:22 AM »
I can't be the only one that sees Cap as one of the most boring characters in the MCU as of now, right? All the other heroes have some sort of conflict, some sort of inner demon or another, whereas he's the boyscout.

And as for him being worthy to lift Thor's hammer, I call bull. That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in the Comics, and I would hate to see that in the movies.

His conflict isn't supposed to be internal, it's external...being the 1940's fish out of water in a modern world. But I agree that they've done a pretty poor job of actually showing that on screen so far.

Regarding the hammer...it's sort of there, in one of the trailers for Age of Ultron. Everyone is drunk and they're having a contest to try and move Thor's hammer. Cap is the only one who can even get it to twitch, though he doesn't actually succeed in lifting it.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #522 on: April 06, 2015, 12:15:23 PM »
I mean, I'll be the first to admit that The Winter Soldier was one of the best action movies I have seen in a long time, and I would watch it again and again and again... I have, actually, done exactly that, lol. But there they do introduce a kind of internal struggle to the buff hero, and that is bringing his best friend into the mix. It made Cap a lot more interesting, helped by the chemistry between him and Natasha.

But still... he's the boyscout. Not particularly deep, not overly bright, at least by comparison to his companions (Scientist with anger management issues, Genius Playboy, Two experienced government operatives, a MOTHERFUCKING GOD). Yeah, I get that he's supposed to be the heart of the group, but yeah... still uninteresting.

Might not help that my favorite kind of super-characters are somewhere between Rorschach and Deadpool, but I can't help but feel Cap is the most boring character of the bunch.

And... I still don't like Cap lifting Mjolnir. You have to be someone a bit more like Thor to be able to possess his powers, IMHO.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #523 on: April 06, 2015, 12:20:46 PM »
Keep in mind, at least, that even Thor in the MCU has at one time been unworthy of Mjolnir. Heck, in the comics it used to happen all the time. It's not a quality of his godlike strength, but a pseudo-mystic quality of his heroic nature. What we're being told is that deep inside, Thor is even more of a hero than Cap is, he just hides it better.

Offline WongBal

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #524 on: April 06, 2015, 01:04:48 PM »
I can't be the only one that sees Cap as one of the most boring characters in the MCU as of now, right? All the other heroes have some sort of conflict, some sort of inner demon or another, whereas he's the boyscout.
His conflict isn't supposed to be internal, it's external...being the 1940's fish out of water in a modern world. But I agree that they've done a pretty poor job of actually showing that on screen so far.
I agree, but there’s still hope. In the released footage of a conversation between Cap and Tony Stark, Tony says,
possible minor Age of Ultron spoilers
“I don’t trust a guy without a dark side.” Steve replies: “Maybe you haven’t seen it yet.”

I seriously hope we get more on that from Age of Ultron. Don’t make me wait until Civil War!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 02:06:16 PM by WongBal »