WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[wander]

Im pretty certain that no, they cannot shoot through friendly guys, they can their own unit, so guy at back of your blob can still fire even if the rest of the units in the way, but if a different units in the way they act as an obstruction.

One bit of contention, line of sight, so if you have a firing line spread out as far as they can while keeping cohesion, its arguable that the spacing means your troops could see through and fire. But that seems bit... yeh to me.

Yeah, I did a google search and it seems that the only way a unit in the back could see past other friendlies is if they can actually catch an unblocked line of sight to any part of the target unit. Helpful for having some big dudes behind lil guys (so big Orks could fire over Gretchin heads for example, or CSMs firing past cultists) otherwise literal line of sight needs to happen.

It doesn't really affect me, as I have elitey sides (both my DG and Custards are built to be tanky, because of that they have smaller units due to the disparity between toughness and strength as mentioned before). It's something to call up if it pulled on me in the next game though.

[Wajin]

Hmmm a Watson omnibus or a Abnett omnibus.... what do you guys think I should read next week?

[Rad]

Honestly, "Horus Rising" made me curious. That was some good world- or well Universe building. And it sounds like a proper epic, from what I've heard. People speak quite highly of some of these books.

But there's just so damn many of them... I might get to them, eventually, I guess.

In the meantime, I need to figure out if they're trying to pull a fast one on us with this Yvraine lassie.

I'd recommend Abnett, Wajin. But only because I know his work better than the other one.

[Cold Heritage]

I feel like some of the choices that are made with the Horus Heresy series are poor ones and that with so many novels they've pulled the curtain back maybe a little too much on things and not in a good way.

[Rad]

There's always a risk of that when you dive too deep into the Lore with a capital "L". It's a bit of a trend these days to leave no stone unturned and explain everything.

But expanding on the fluff can sometimes be great. And fans of a certain faction or character might appreciate it. Raven Guard fans, for instance, might appreciate the Corax novel. Players of Thousand Sons might appreciate the fact that, as someone said here, #MagnusDidNothingWrong. Conversely, they might think their bae demon prince was portrayed as a wimpy emo kid.

You're never going to make everyone happy, is my point. That's why leaving a little mystery is a good thing.

Me, I can forgive a lot as long as the story's good. And if the writing's decent, I'll buy into it, sure.

[Cold Heritage]

Definitely. But to me, a lot of the execution falls flat. There's a sense I got with a bunch of the books that there was something the authors were trying to accomplish but the prose failed to deliver on. At least for me.

Like . . . the Emperor. There's an older novel featuring an Inquisitor that's no longer considered even soft canon where the Inquisitor "meets" the Emperor. The Inquisitor's subjected - the exposure almost kills him - to a bunch of fragmented, confused psychic voices that lament how great and terrible they are for having purged all mercy and compassion from themselves - a necessity to do what they did to Horus and for their current existence - and they laugh at the notion that they reflect anything approaching significant proportion of the totality of the Emperor and that their ultimate, grim purpose is the survival of mankind. It's an unsettling passage to read and it drives home how humanity's in a very precarious position: worshiping and utterly dependent upon this barely human entity whose mind is fractured into a million pieces with a singular goal but who individual components are highly implied to be working at crossroads with one another because it's plans within plans to keep humanity going in the grimdark future.

Master of Mankind, on the other hand, just takes the bus to memetown and makes the Emprah Worst Dad Ever. It doesn't make me think of the trunkless legs of Ozymandias that the Imperium will become when the Emperor laments of the failure of the Webway Project and how the golden path is lost to humanity now.

It's not all garbage but on the whole I feel like it came up more short than not.

[TheLaughingOne]

Like . . . the Emperor. There's an older novel featuring an Inquisitor that's no longer considered even soft canon where the Inquisitor "meets" the Emperor. The Inquisitor's subjected - the exposure almost kills him - to a bunch of fragmented, confused psychic voices that lament how great and terrible they are for having purged all mercy and compassion from themselves - a necessity to do what they did to Horus and for their current existence - and they laugh at the notion that they reflect anything approaching significant proportion of the totality of the Emperor and that their ultimate, grim purpose is the survival of mankind. It's an unsettling passage to read and it drives home how humanity's in a very precarious position: worshiping and utterly dependent upon this barely human entity whose mind is fractured into a million pieces with a singular goal but who individual components are highly implied to be working at crossroads with one another because it's plans within plans to keep humanity going in the grimdark future.

Inquisition wars. One of the last things before they really tanked the sensei, illuminanti, and couple other promising stories so they could sandbag the world til now...

[Cold Heritage]

Also by the Emperor that paragraph is a trainwreck and I make every apology for it.

[Wajin]

Definitely. But to me, a lot of the execution falls flat. There's a sense I got with a bunch of the books that there was something the authors were trying to accomplish but the prose failed to deliver on. At least for me.

Like . . . the Emperor. There's an older novel featuring an Inquisitor that's no longer considered even soft canon where the Inquisitor "meets" the Emperor. The Inquisitor's subjected - the exposure almost kills him - to a bunch of fragmented, confused psychic voices that lament how great and terrible they are for having purged all mercy and compassion from themselves - a necessity to do what they did to Horus and for their current existence - and they laugh at the notion that they reflect anything approaching significant proportion of the totality of the Emperor and that their ultimate, grim purpose is the survival of mankind. It's an unsettling passage to read and it drives home how humanity's in a very precarious position: worshiping and utterly dependent upon this barely human entity whose mind is fractured into a million pieces with a singular goal but who individual components are highly implied to be working at crossroads with one another because it's plans within plans to keep humanity going in the grimdark future.

Master of Mankind, on the other hand, just takes the bus to memetown and makes the Emprah Worst Dad Ever. It doesn't make me think of the trunkless legs of Ozymandias that the Imperium will become when the Emperor laments of the failure of the Webway Project and how the golden path is lost to humanity now.

It's not all garbage but on the whole I feel like it came up more short than not.

Inquisition wars. One of the last things before they really tanked the sensei, illuminanti, and couple other promising stories so they could sandbag the world til now...

Congrats on guessing the book by Watson I was eluding to. The lore breaking adventures of Jaq Draco, also known as The Inquisition War. My oldest daughter decided for me though, by choice of book covers. Ravenor the Omnibus won out over Inquisition War. So now I have 890 some pages to read next week

[TheLaughingOne]

Heheh, inquisition war is ok, actually got the omni somewhere.

Im waiting for more of the larger books to come out in audiobook, got eisenhorn seties, xenos, malleus, hereticus, and magos (new one which is pretty damn good.)

But ravenor... i have the last book, rogue, in audiobook... ... ...  CEPT THE DAMN ASSHOLES ONLY HAVE THAT ONE OF THE RAVENOR SERIES!!!

I mean come on!

[Wajin]

Heheh, inquisition war is ok, actually got the omni somewhere.

Im waiting for more of the larger books to come out in audiobook, got eisenhorn seties, xenos, malleus, hereticus, and magos (new one which is pretty damn good.)

But ravenor... i have the last book, rogue, in audiobook... ... ...  CEPT THE DAMN ASSHOLES ONLY HAVE THAT ONE OF THE RAVENOR SERIES!!!

I mean come on!

Huh, I can find the whole series on Audible except for the short stories, Thorn wishes Talons and Playing Patience

[TheLaughingOne]

Its up now?? Sweet!

And they have ALL the short stories in the magos book!

[TheLaughingOne]

In side news, woot! My primaris marines should show today! 15 intercessors, 6 inceptors, and 2 lieutenants! All basis for a raven guard primaris chapter.

Hope they release some extra models to make them alot more viable force.

Curent standings, 15 inceptors, 5 reivers, 1 redemptor, 2 lieutenants, 6 inceptors.

Trying to figure aggressors or hellblasters next...

[TheLaughingOne]

... ok. Opinion time.

Chapter: raven guard for their special that gives a -1 to hit it range is beyond 12 inches.
Battalion detactment for 6cp total.

Hq:
Primaris Captain with mw bolt rifle, power sword and armor indominous relic (for that sweet sweet 2+ save...)
2 lieutenants with mw auto bolt rifles

Troops:
Squad 1: 6 man intercessor squad with stalker bolt rifle, 1 grenade launcher, and power sword on serg.

Squad 2: 6 man intercessor squad with stalker bolt rifle, 1 grenade launcher, and power sword on serg.

Squad 3: 7 man intercessor squad with auto bolt rifles, 1 grenade launcher, and power sword on serg.

Elite
Redemptor dread with heavy onslaught, regular onslaught, fragstorm launchers, icarus pod.

Fast attack
Squad 1: 3 man inceptor squad with assault bolters
Squad 2: 3 man inceptor squad with assault bolters

Heavy
Squad 1: 5 man hellblaster squad with plasma incinerators, and plasma pistol on serg

Squad 2: 5 man hellblaster squad with plasma incinerators, and plasma pistol on serg

Tactics:
Start game with capt, lieuts, autorifle intercessors, one squad stalker intercessors on field, redemptor on field. Spend  3cp to place both hellblasters and remaining stalker in hiding with master of shadows, put inceptors in orbit.

Bring in inceptors early, have them jump around pot shotting troops and light vehicles.

Bring in Stalker later after enemy has goten to "safe positions" behind cover or wherever, if possible on some nice high ground (friend always uses lots of tall buildings with good cover and all), camp out plinking at high value units with stalker rifles.

Bring in hellblasters later on, preferably sneaking them up on heavy vehicles. For extra sneaki, leave your stalkers out if there is a good start position and pull the capt into shadows, have him pop out beside the hell blastersfor some tank raping (10 guys in rapid range on supercharge, and ability to reroll 1s? Bubye tank)

Extra points if you say, "Thats a nice tank you got there... be a shame if something were to... HAPPEN to it...

Total force points: 1503

[wander]

Well if you're playing 1,500pts games, you'll have to let something shift down in points. Most everyone I know completely disallows "Just a few points over".

Deepstriking; Remember if you don't get reserves in by Turn 3, they're counted as destroyed. You can't deepstrike things in later than the end of your Turn 3 movement phase.

You'll probably have a better time on the Warhammer40k subreddit, they're pretty good there at looking at lists and suggesting ways of improvement or how viable a tactic is.

[TheLaughingOne]

Well if you're playing 1,500pts games, you'll have to let something shift down in points. Most everyone I know completely disallows "Just a few points over".

Deepstriking; Remember if you don't get reserves in by Turn 3, they're counted as destroyed. You can't deepstrike things in later than the end of your Turn 3 movement phase.

You'll probably have a better time on the Warhammer40k subreddit, they're pretty good there at looking at lists and suggesting ways of improvement or how viable a tactic is.

Fair, i ould just drop a powersword,

And, the strike from shadows doesnt even work like that. Bugger. At begining of battle but before the first turn begins you reveal them. Cant hold them past that. Damn.. that actually kicks a good few of my ideas and plans right in the dick... And i did not know that 3rd round thing. Which isnt to much of a problem as our games rarely get past there, either finishing before, or we are just to exhausted to keep on... ... Or drunk.

Usually drunk.

And honestly... most reddits and forums for tactics stuff i've gone to, asking for advice is about as painful as removing teeth. with the jaws of life. then implanting them in ones genitals. with a pile driver...

still... Damn. still viable, but not as versatile as planned.. specialy with primaris having such limited transport options... which is freaking stupid..

[Idej]

Well if you're playing 1,500pts games, you'll have to let something shift down in points. Most everyone I know completely disallows "Just a few points over".

Deepstriking; Remember if you don't get reserves in by Turn 3, they're counted as destroyed. You can't deepstrike things in later than the end of your Turn 3 movement phase.

You'll probably have a better time on the Warhammer40k subreddit, they're pretty good there at looking at lists and suggesting ways of improvement or how viable a tactic is.

Which is why this game can be called Math Hammer.

[wander]

TLO;

Try playing some sober games for fun. It's maybe just me, though doing competitive spam lists and having a game end at Turn 2 doesn't sound like much fun to me. My fave games are when I've been all in, trying to think tactically with every element of my turn, being pushed to the brink and things able to go either way at Turn 6, using my units I'm holding for very specific goals for each, whether it's objective guarding, running charges, anti-infantry or anti-tank...
Spend an afternoon (or more!) with a friend doing 1,000pts and just pick a list you want to play. Go through without alcohol and get to Turn 5. Have fun with the game and go in not worrying about winning, rather having a cool rumble.

I mention because when you said this;

I've been trying to get into it for years, but pretty much EVERY time i tried the people i was going to play with would wait til i bought my minis and go "eeehhh.. Im not that interested" and drop out, and there i was, left with 200-300$ of minis and nothing to do. I actually have a ton i need to finish and paint...

This sounds like someone who sees a competitive optimised army that can wipe someone's list in a turn or two (or cheese lists) would answer you if you offered to play them. Intimidation is a thing that players do get unless they're very confident in their list, plus also not every army is built purely for optimisation. People put a lil of themselves in their lists quite often.

I mention this even though I use the Custodes Doombike cheese in my Custards list (got three of the fuckers in my 1,500 list), though if I have a win that's too close to the start or utter shitfucks my opponent and I lose hardly any men, I get disappointed as I feel a win is best earned when the fight is more close, y'know?

[TheLaughingOne]

well, our games usually end after 2 turns cause its been about.... 4-5 hours. Not cause we take so long as we are pissed, but we actually take our time and plan our moves careful, not for "maximum effect!!" but in scopes of what our planned/written armies would do. And usually by the end of turn 2 we have managed to wipe out a good portion of each others forces! one of the few games we fully finished was 3 turns long, 1500 pts, and at end of turn three i was left with just a company of reivers, he had a few guardsmen (2 of a 10 man squad), a chimera and i think a leman russ annihilator. granted, there was a lot of casulties due to misunderstanding on vehicle explosion rules.. but at the time god damn it was the most awesome thing that had ever happened feeling to us (even though it took out like, half his force and put me back into the running)

My lists tend to be pretty simple cause if you count all the games i've ever played of 40k.. it comes out to like... 5. before that a few games of Shadow Wars, and thats my war gaming experience aside from computer games. one of my major issues was i built these really slapdash armies that were so spread out that they were pretty much useless, so friends suggested i try playing something more... well, List like i showed. i've done blood angels melee rush, now trying more tactical shooty.

and the people that bitched out.. well, they never even got to list building part, i made mine then bought the minis, and i think it was price shock that got them, or just that they were assholes. The only real "player" they had talked to was me, and there was no way i was intimidating them with my lack luster table top knowledge.

[wander]

Fair points. You'll find the more points in a game, the longer turns will last. Try 1,000pts if you haven't already. Usually me and my best mate go through one Turn in an hour on average. For me usually by Turn 4 is when the battlefield is pretty much starting to look really cleared on that point level. Remember unless one side is tabled or your opponent concedes the match, games will run to at least Turn 5 before being officially completed.

I also still think you'd really like Heralds of Ruin. It's like a middle-ground between Shadow Wars and a proper 40k game. It's basically a balanced version of Kill Team for 8th edition (before the official version comes out). May be easier to net you more 40k experience that way. :)

[TheLaughingOne]

Yeah, 1000 points does sound bit better to me as well.

Thanks for the advice!

[wander]

It'll feel different. As far as I've always known it, 40k was built to do 1,500pt games most optimally. If you go over that, say to 2,000pts, whilst a fair few people play at that level, some things will work differently on the field and perhaps not at their most optimal. 1000pts is a small game, though you'll have enough units that it'll still feel 40k. Remember that's 1000pts max (not a few pts over, literally no more than 1k). My DG army is around the 998-999pt mark for those games.

[TheLaughingOne]

well, mostly we just play by our group (one time went out to a store and tried got some very obnoxious crap from the overly territorial neckbeards there), and long as your not more then 10pts over its "ok"  but we are also just playing for fun for the most part, and willing to let things slide in the name of fun.

... And now we are having a discussion on this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lUPw09eF_U

Which is a guy saying he has heard that GW is going to limit it so all forces have a 0-3 limit on everything except troops. And its funny cause the comments are freaking out like the sky is falling, despite it being stupid as it makes detachments completely pointless, and its relayed to him "by a guy on a big chat thing that says he knows a guy who- blahblahblah"

The small of it was GW's Official 40k team went to store and got beat by guy running some nid flyer spam, and now they are going to limit it so you can only take a max of 3 on extra forces, but no limit on troops. or something like..

(update)
Ok, explained that you get the normal detach amounts, but can only take 0-3 of each Unit. so you could still take a vanguard and get 6 elites, but could only take a max of 3 of each kind, so only 3 death company and 3 sterngard, rather then like, 6 sterngard..

... Now the question is how did they learn of my genius all ork burnaboyz army!?!?!?!

[wander]

That seems fine. Doesn't affect my Custards, nor does it affect my DG army. If I boosted DG to 1,500pts, then I may have to think more on what units to add, though as mentioned above, I honestly enjoy 1k play.

And I'm okay with it. Stops cheese-spam.

[MiaKage]

Burnas in a trukk are the scariest thing ever ._.