WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[wander]

Heh, yeah the Custodes were there at Prospero. Can't be on the RIGHT SIDE all the time.  I mained Death Guard all last year after all... 

Warning; some grumpiness incoming...

Thing is, to me 40k isn't a setting that suits places where life is good and there are clear good guys. My mate used to mention the Tau as being truly Good in alignment, then I pointed out the brainworms, the gelding and glassing of planets that really resist joining their Greater Good... The way that the Ethereals are moustach twirling flouters of the right of choice on their own people via their mind control, also #Krootlivesmatter and #FreetheVespids...  Nomnoming on that dismay to find the Tau aren't that nice after all. ^^

Its kinda really bland IMO to just throw in Militarum platoons with other Imperial forces to cheap out on Troops tax and get blobs for Imperial armies. Sure it means you can field space marines and custodes and have big blob tarpits... Though eh, feels like powerplaying to me and takes a bit of fluff from doing just a pure army. I know it's in the rules and totally allowed, though I find it the opposite of playing a characterful army and the most boring way to play Empire of Man armies.

I'm waiting for Ynnead to do something evil and realise the Ynarri fucked up. Like Ynnead is an avatar of Slaanesh or becomes the new Chaos God to replace them or something. Though I adore Yvraine and find her pretty awesome, despite being the Mary Sue of the Mary Sue army.Y'see, I like my Drukhari as sadistic raiders and enslavers of worlds, torturing souls to keep Slaanesh off their back... I like the darkness they bring in without being all grimdark depressing... They get off on doing what they do and are particularly dickish in a setting not short of characters that pull off many a dick move...
I get they'd wanna kick Slaanesh in their H-tendrils for everything bad that became of the Eldar the past 10,000 years same as the Craftworlders and Harlequins do... Though also the Ynnead are seen as a dangerous cult (see above concern over the last time they willed a god into existence and what happened from it) and are still in the minority, despite everyone and their dad playing them over the vanilla factions. So the Drukhari of the Ynnead are the weirdos and not really respected, despite mai otha space-elf waifu Lelith Hesperax joining them.

[TheLaughingOne]

So... you like berserker marine types..?

Knights of blood, blood angel successor chapter, so violent and with such a disregard of collateral damage that even the fkesh tearers tell them to calm the fuck down. Labeled traitorus excommunicatus by the imperium they went, "FUCK YOU!! WE ARE STILL LOYAL TO THE IMPERIUM!!!"  And will fight on their behalf. ... .... that rescue usually looks much like superman saving metropolis in man of steel.

Next we have the Carcharodons (aka, space sharks, aka Carcharodons astra)!! These guys are the other end of the berserk scale, not all screamy rage and spaz flailing, but fight so viciously, ferociously, and cooly that it unnerves even other space marines. Runored to be gene brothers to raven guard for their pale skin and black eyes they are whispered to be founded
Using stabilized geneseed from coraxs failed experiments. (A not entirely uncommon mutation being sharp jagged teeth, which combined with their grey rough skin and jet black eyes, helps lend to their name..)

I would like to see primaris get some actual decent melee types, aggessors are ok, and reivers are alright, but for their costs and all the best use ive found are a good sized group of intercessors loaded with stalker bolt rifles high up with cover acting as fire support. Using this as a basis for a raven guard primaris chapter, good few units on field, rest using master of shadows. When enemy forces least expect it, BOOM!!! 20+ heavy snipers appear to give them bolt round enemas and lobotomies!

[TheLaughingOne]

Crap!! How could i have forgotten the black dragons!!

They had an awesome novel called death of antagoinsta (or something like) that is an excellent story for them. Cursed founding that is suppose to be salamanders successors, major mutation that causes the growth of giant bone spurs baraka/wolverine style. And if thst isnt bad ass enough they coat the spurs in ceramite and adamantum with mono edge and go to town.

SUPER damn loyal, but get slot of hate for the mutations. Also friendly enough that they make salamanders look like jerks.

[Idej]

I didn't do that for cheap taxes.  I just like to mix and have a unified Imperium army.  Just there is alot to the Imperium that I like as a whole.

And yeah I am waiting for Ynnead to do something to.  God of the Dead and all.  So something like being an abyss of sorts that consumes all and without a balance like Isha, the Eldar goddess of life, I can see the Ynnari going from salvation of the Eldar to being another doom.  I like the grimdark atmosphere but I also like that sliver of hope.  If everything is bad, why bother to fight?  Why cling to life? 

And I get it.  My thoughts are fairly weak in this matter, and yeah I admit the Ynnari are the new trend.  Even so the Ynnari are a faction I do like and am hoping that somehow they get a bit more tinged in darkness a bit.

Yeah those Drukhari that joined are weird and such, but tbh I like it because they are weird lol.

[Idej]

Ideally if Corsairs had more models I would have used them over Drukhari

[TheGlyphstone]

Salamanders are Best Marines. I like to say that they're the only Chapter who hasn't forgotten their roots and purpose as the Emperor originally designed them to be, the protectors of humanity and the human species. Too many chapters focus solely on killing the enemy even if it means all the humans they're supposed to be saving end up dead in the process, or else go like the Ultramarines and set themselves up as god-kings over their human subjects. Salamanders remember that despite no longer being human, they were once human, and ultimately their job is to ensure there will always be humans.

[TheLaughingOne]

Salamanders are Best Marines. I like to say that they're the only Chapter who hasn't forgotten their roots and purpose as the Emperor originally designed them to be, the protectors of humanity and the human species. Too many chapters focus solely on killing the enemy even if it means all the humans they're supposed to be saving end up dead in the process, or else go like the Ultramarines and set themselves up as god-kings over their human subjects. Salamanders remember that despite no longer being human, they were once human, and ultimately their job is to ensure there will always be humans.

Sallys are cool like that, and i think Blud aggys follow that as well, they might be going insane with visions of sanguinius fighting horus and getting lost in blood lust that according to dark imperium might have been programmed in by the emperor but still leaving them just a little messed up one of their main concerns has been protecting humanity, its not just that Sang sacrificed himself fighting horus that got people loving him, its how his chapter like ultramarines and others left the planets in better condition then they started.

[Rad]

Yeah, I'm waiting for some Slaanesh shenanigans with Ynnead as well. Or some other malarkey to go down. As soon as I read the wiki page, I just knew something wrong with that. And while I agree with you, wander, that no-one in the 40K Universe is wholly "good", like I said, you have to grade things on a cruve. The T'au aren't "good" in the D&D sense, but let's be honest here, no-one ever is. Are they less evil that, say, the Imperium? Maybe, at least they're open to the possibility of diplomacy, and that's leaps and bounds ahead of the Empire.

I don't know if Yvraine's a Mary Sue because, again, I haven't read the books yet. If we're talking Mary Sues, though, surely that's Guilliman. Mr. "I'm so pure even Lion L'Oréal Jonson can't touch me".

But like Idej said, there's got to be some hope for a silver lining, something to fight for, otherwise it's just bland and boring. Sure, it might turn out your silver lining was Slaanesh all along. Or maybe Mannfred comes along and ruins the ending to a perfectly good series of books... no, I'm not bitter all, why do you ask?

[TheLaughingOne]

I don't know if Yvraine's a Mary Sue because, again, I haven't read the books yet. If we're talking Mary Sues, though, surely that's Guilliman. Mr. "I'm so pure even Lion L'Oréal Jonson can't touch me".

I actually listened to the dark imperium audiobook recently, and.... Honestly? It had Rowboat Girlyman as a really human and sympathetic character. I was not at all a fan, but from how they portrayed his character in the book.. I kinda am now. He is depressed without being emo and angsty at the state of the imperium, seeing what it once was in its splendor and glory, to what its been turned into. How he is alone, all his brothers missing, dead, or turned traitor and daemonic freaks, his father is now this... "Thing" that lacks all humanity and regards him as nothing more then a new chess piece, and blames himself for alot of it with how he broke up the legions, the Codex Astartes, and the 500 worlds being broken down so the weakened ultramarines could rule over it. He is... Honestly an extremely human character, which i think is damn awesome!

the things that do annoy me are how they are rewriting the custodes, which has been retconned that they never got an order from the emperor to remain in the palace and allow humans to rule, protect the gate streaming daemons, and all of that... Why havent done anything in the last 10,000 years because *sniffsniff* They were sad!!!!

Seriously, they just watched as the imperium fell apart because they were sad the emperor got fucked up. They could have gone out at any time and started helping, but were feeling a little down. And now that  Roboute is back and kicked them out of the pity party corner, they have gone all cunty and bitchy at everybody for fucking up the imperium, and thus act worthlessly snarky, angry, and like complete fucks to everybody. one even starts yelling at a guy on a bridge crew because its giving alerts and warnings, like he is suppose to.

Its.. a writing fail to me. Hell, you could have kept the old lore in which the emperor had them hold back and protect the palace and all, and they are now so pissed off because for 10,000 years they have had to sit there and watch as the high lords of terra, ecclesiarchy, and all these other fuckheads ground the imperium and all it stood for into the ground. That makes MUCH more sense.

The second big issue i have... Is the emperor. Oh man do i have a problem with how they are portraying the emperor. Now he has absolutely no feelings for any of the primarchs, Malcador the Sigillite, or anybody else. they were just tools to be used and cast aside. Which.. Fucking seriously? If that was the case, why did he hold back when fighting horus when he was fully invested with chaos? Why would the casual sadistic death of Ollanius Pius (and FUCK Anybody who calls him Ollanius Persson "The perpetual" cause that is stupid god damn worthless trash! What made him bad ass was the fact that he was a normal mortal, a nobody, just some guy with a lasgun who saw the emperor about to die at the hands of his son, now twisted to an abomination whos very presense should have destroyed his mind and soul, and decided to lay down his life protecting the emperor, even if he had absolutely NO chance of doing anything but buying him a few extra picoseconds. If the emperor was some emotionless machine man who felt nothing for people and just pushed the survival of the species above all else, why would Ollanius Pius' death matter, why would he hold back against his most trusted and beloved son Horus? Why wouldnt he just blast horus 10,000 ways past oblivion?)

... i think i got side tracked... ... Where the hell was i..?
...
Oh, ok, so my rant kinda continues to tie to what i was saying. Sweet!

I like those things with Emperor, Horus, Roboute, Russ, Lion, magnus (he did do wrong, but he did it for good reasons and without knowing all the facts. Nobody comes out of the situation clean, not the emperor, magnus, russ, and especially not horus), and all the others that despite everything, either being a man who ascended to something god like, a gestalt being of absolute psychic power made through the sacrifice of thousands of powerful psykers, "perfectly" Engineered super beings that surpass humans in almost every fashion, Are still human in the end, and fuck up just like us. That in the end, despite it all they are still human.

... Cept some of those iron hand guys, they have taken their cyberpunk fetish just a little to far. Dudes need to go sit in the dipshit corner til they chill the fuck out. And no juice boxes until they get with the program.

[TheGlyphstone]

I thought it was implied that the Emperor had cared about people like Malcador and Horus when he was a man, but spending 10,000 years on (probably extremely painful) life support has stripped him of any empathy or humanity he had.

[TheLaughingOne]

it Was implied, but with current rewrites they are making it as "no. he was just acting. they are nothing more then tools to be used and discarded"

One writer even going as far as to state that you cant trust anything the emperor says, cause he just tells you what you want to hear, and his overwhelming psychic power makes you perceive him as you think he is, and tot like that.

[wander]

I like the sound of the Knights of Blood, purely because I'm a chaos (little c) fan and I really dig that kind of sweeping force of nature kind of blitzing. ^^

I adore Yvraine btw, I'd like to see her in more things. I mention her as a Mary Sue as by her origin story she was a Craftworld Warlock that became a Dire Avenger due to her bloodlust, then became a Corsair turned Wych before becoming a Succubus (and she even got to fight on more or less even keel with Lelith Hesperax to boot) and because she'd gone and followed every element of the Eldar way of life not just min/maxed on one element like the others, she basically unlocked the power to be the Herald for Ynnead and that makes her super special. She's also the one who brings back Rowboat (with some tech-heresy help from Caul) and is basically looked on moderately well by at least Rowboat for these actions (even requesting her aid in particular to help get hold of a Relic of Nurgle to help with the Plague Wars), if not others that are Imperials even though she's a filthy xenos... And yet, I get pulled in to her story and want to see more of her. ^^;
Also, I admit I'm being slightly hyperbolic calling her a Mary Sue, she gets her ass saved by others rather than her own actions more often than not.

The Ynnead did suffer a majorsetback with a third of their number wiped by a Big Daddy Avatar of Khaine... Though then an Autarch sealed it into themself and now the Ynnead have an Uber-Avatar on their side... SMH.

On the Custards not leaving Terra; as a cohesive force they did not, true, however in the 10,000 years post-Heresy, specific sodalites were sent out on the odd mission when something needed to be done in the name of protecting Terra or the Emperor. Basically every now and then, they were out doing Black Ops stuff noone would hear about. A list of their activities is in their codex. Also as far as the codex says, it was Guilliman who placed the order for the Custards to stay on Terra and he went KIA for a few thousand, it was likely to be a temporary order and it never got lifted until he came back and figured 'Yep, these lads fought dem demons well good, let's send 'em out'.

As for what happened on Horus' ship at the Seige, it's already been stated by Black Library that when they come to that point in the story, it's probably going to be different to anything you could imagine or has been portrayed before. IMO, the current story as is should be thought of as tainted with Imperial propoganda. We haven't seen 'what actually happened' when Horus and Emps fought yet.

Also... I'm leaning with Glyph on this, for Malcador at least. Malcador was his best friend and actual only friend. The Primarchs were tools yes. Though also they're still his sons and people and it's clear he had faves amongst them, whether it was part of his plan (going on the 'Heresy was planned from the start so they'd kill each off to make the galaxy one for pure humans only') or not.

[TheLaughingOne]

On the Custards not leaving Terra; as a cohesive force they did not, true, however in the 10,000 years post-Heresy, specific sodalites were sent out on the odd mission when something needed to be done in the name of protecting Terra or the Emperor. Basically every now and then, they were out doing Black Ops stuff noone would hear about. A list of their activities is in their codex. Also as far as the codex says, it was Guilliman who placed the order for the Custards to stay on Terra and he went KIA for a few thousand, it was likely to be a temporary order and it never got lifted until he came back and figured 'Yep, these lads fought dem demons well good, let's send 'em out'.

As for what happened on Horus' ship at the Seige, it's already been stated by Black Library that when they come to that point in the story, it's probably going to be different to anything you could imagine or has been portrayed before. IMO, the current story as is should be thought of as tainted with Imperial propoganda. We haven't seen 'what actually happened' when Horus and Emps fought yet.

Also... I'm leaning with Glyph on this, for Malcador at least. Malcador was his best friend and actual only friend. The Primarchs were tools yes. Though also they're still his sons and people and it's clear he had faves amongst them, whether it was part of his plan (going on the 'Heresy was planned from the start so they'd kill each off to make the galaxy one for pure humans only') or not.

Issue with Rowboat giving orders to the custodes is he literally had no authority to, they answer to only the emperor (though modern times now as he Speaks for the emperor). So he could tell them whatever he wanted, but its pretty much pointless. Didnt have the stroke to tell them what to do.

... At least before retcons and rewrites.

... More i read and hear bout some of these things the more i get tired of them and of 40k...

And yeah, dude has stated (really wish i could remember the guys name) even Malcador was nothing to him, all the friendliness was just an act to get him to do what he wanted. The primarchs were Never sons, and only treated them as such and allowed them to call him father to manipulte them further.

... Granted, he is one writer out of the Score they have, and as there is no real main binding canon they each get to write what they want how they want, and it all counts..

Even marvel and DC figured ways to keep their divergent bullshit together;P
...
Sorta.
...
Kinda.

Ok, no they didnt either.

[TheLaughingOne]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden Thats the guy!!

[TheLaughingOne]

So...

Just finished shower before sleep, and hot water helped brain retake control from lizard portion.

Wanna apologize if seems im coming down on you guys for differences in opinion or liking things i dont. Totally not what i mean, but sometimes i really suck at communicating, and its been happening a lot lately.

I really like warhammer, and dont actually get many chances to talk on the subject, which sucks cause its an awesome one. And you lot are fun ones to chat with it on. Sorry if i was acting like an ass or any such thing like that.

[wander]

It's cool; I'm not taking a difference of opinion due to two people reading the same thing and both taking their own interpretation from it as personal attacks, it's jus' debatin'! 

I'm going off of memory from my codex atm, though I believe the order was put in by Guilliman and Valdor when the Emps was entombed. I'll at some point go into the other room, get my codex and find some direct quoting on that. Though basically, from my own reading (the following is not stated) the Emps was totalled and on life support, coudn't act to protect himself and needed guarding from the very real threat at the time from the Traitor Legions. Guilliman I believe was technically Lord-Commander back then and Valdor was the Lord-General of the Custodes.

[Idej]

TLO it's all good mate.  Love talking to you here :)

And yeah memory serves me right that is correct Wander.  Also Emperor's Legion says that too.  Good read in my opinion.

[greenknight]

... Granted, he is one writer out of the Score they have, and as there is no real main binding canon they each get to write what they want how they want, and it all counts..

That is the binding canon: everything written is objectively true, especially if it contradicts other writings. "Only the insane have strength enough to prosper and only the prosperous can truly say what is sane."

Of course, this all circles back to the Sigmarian heresy...

And exodites arent quite like the fantasy elves, dark, high, or wood.

To be fair, it was all an answer to "I wish there were models," not "I want exodites." If you really want them, field fantasy models as "counts as" and pick an eld-, er, excuse me, Aeldari profile you think is appropriate and Bob's yer uncle.

[wander]

Btw, here's one for the rules peeps here. Came up in the last game I played...

Say one player has two units, one behind the other facing an enemy unit, can the unit at the back fire at the enemy, even though they have friendly dudes infront?

The rulebook states members of the same unit can fire through each other, though doesn't mention being able to ignore other friendlies in the way of a target. My mate thought he could do so, I kinda said well the rulebook isn't clear, I guess I'll allow it if they can still get line of sight.

Anyone know of an official ruling on that kind of thing?

[TheLaughingOne]

Im pretty certain that no, they cannot shoot through friendly guys, they can their own unit, so guy at back of your blob can still fire even if the rest of the units in the way, but if a different units in the way they act as an obstruction.

One bit of contention, line of sight, so if you have a firing line spread out as far as they can while keeping cohesion, its arguable that the spacing means your troops could see through and fire. But that seems bit... yeh to me.

[Cold Heritage]

A lot of the groups I like in the Warhams just tend to be Spess Mehreens. I can appreciate the Orks and the Eldar (vanilla and chocolate), but they don't really speak to me in the same way that an eight foot tall genetically modified super-soldier swinging around a gigantic chainsaw screaming incoherently because he's used his conscious control over his metabolism to flood his system with rage juice does.

I forgot, though, that I really enjoyed in Emperor's Legion when they had the pairing of the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes. That was pretty great.

I'm not really much into the Guard. The Death Korps have a pretty great aesthetic, and their super heavy tanks are pretty great. I remember playing Dawn of War with the pop caps off and just having like a hundred Baneblades on the field and that was just glorious.

Salamanders are Best Marines. I like to say that they're the only Chapter who hasn't forgotten their roots and purpose as the Emperor originally designed them to be, the protectors of humanity and the human species. Too many chapters focus solely on killing the enemy even if it means all the humans they're supposed to be saving end up dead in the process, or else go like the Ultramarines and set themselves up as god-kings over their human subjects. Salamanders remember that despite no longer being human, they were once human, and ultimately their job is to ensure there will always be humans.

The Lamenters are pretty compassionate tier, too.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'd like the Lamenters more if they weren't GW's designated whipping boys for literally everything. Any time something terrible or humiliating happens to a Space Marine chapter not named the Golden Lions, it's probably going to be the Lamenters.

[Rad]

Wanna apologize if seems im coming down on you guys for differences in opinion or liking things i dont. Totally not what i mean, but sometimes i really suck at communicating, and its been happening a lot lately.

I really like warhammer, and dont actually get many chances to talk on the subject, which sucks cause its an awesome one. And you lot are fun ones to chat with it on. Sorry if i was acting like an ass or any such thing like that.

I can only speak for myself here, but it did not come across as such.

Warhammer gets us fired up, it is a hobby we're very passionate about and invested it, it's only natural to get a little heated when talking about it.

This thing about the Emperor being a callous unfeeling sociopath before he was corpsified, I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, I've always been in the camp of not really down with the Emperor (not that I'm saying Horus was right), but give him some redeeming qualities, at least.

I'm not sure. I read the first book in the Horus Heresy line, and would love to continue... but when I take one look at the flowchart for which book to read when, it just... really takes it out of me.



Speaking of reading, and hey, Idej, you might like this. I read a short story last night by Gav Thorpe, "Dark Son", about a Dark Eldar Incubi (Shouldn't it be incubus? Whatever), captured by the craftworld Eldar and... sort of turned to their side. It's a beautiful little snippet and example of how... in this Universe, no-one is good. Apropos of what we were talking about earlier.

While we're on the topic, Jain Zar: Storm of Silence, also by Gav Thorpe was a really good read, and a great window into the minds of the Eldar and their different factions. You had Craftworld Ulthwé, Harlequins, Corsairs, and Dark Eldar all featured (including your man, Vect). No Ynnari at this point, but it was great to see how the different factions interacted with each other, and a Phoenix Lord. The Dark Eldar character there, Maensith, I really liked her and the story arc she was given.

Oh, and one of my favourite Warhammer quotes (I'm paraphrasing):

"Among her many other transgressions, she took his lover's heart."
"I didn't think of her as the romantic sort."
"No, she literally took his heart."

[wander]

Btw Rad, after reading the first book of the Horus Heresy, you're more or less okay to read them in numbering order. The second book to read would be 'False Gods'. The first three books of the Horus Heresy basically make up a trilogy that shows the initial fall of Horus.

It's book 4 onwards that details the actual events of the Heresy proper itself.

[HairyHeretic]

https://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy-reading-order.html