US warships near Syrian waters

[Hades]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/world/middleeast/syria-talks.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Well I think I figured out Russia wanted out of this. They retain the right to veto military options and from what the morning shows are saying they even offered the Assad regime anti-aircraft systems in return for compliance. The option to resist any political measures and even the demand to the US to NOT support the opposition remains with the Assad regime.

Basically the 'business as usual' standing that the russians wanted has been restated.

We gain little beyond the Syrian's saying 'here is all our chemical weapons and there are no others, excuse us while we clusterbomb/napalm our own citizens'.

Emphasis added since that's what I want to focus on.

Sadly, as horrific as it is to see the reports of civilian deaths keep going up and up, this is the best sort of situation we really could ever hope to achieve.  Yeah, we talk abot regime change, but we've said the same thing in Iran for the past 30 years and it remains just rhetoric.  We cannot be the world's police force nor can we still engage in imperialism where we go around the world using high explosives to solve any problem we come across.

I would love to see Assad gone from power and a new government formed that is genuinely interested in the well-being and prosperity of all its citizens.  But sometimes you have to take what you can get and in this case, we get chemical weapons removed from the field and we do it without racking up another couple hundred billion dollars worth of debt.

[Skynet]

So they're interviewing Assad right now on CBS' 60 Minutes.  Is anyone else watching?  Because I just got in and haven't picked up on anything significant yet.

[ShadowFox89]

What I got is, he considers the factions in his own government as terrorists.

[Callie Del Noire]

So they're interviewing Assad right now on CBS' 60 Minutes.  Is anyone else watching?  Because I just got in and haven't picked up on anything significant yet.

He's not going to come out and admit to atrocities. He's been given a MASSIVE amount of coaching.

The thing is, without someway to force Assad to admit that his minority faction can't rule the government for long. Too many others have stooped under the collar too long. He's put his foot on the neck of the people for too long. They aren't going to roll over and let thigns go back to what Assad's people consider 'business as usual'. Particularly not after the massive repression and murder of the last 2 years.

The genie is out of the bottle. There are what.. something like a million or more displaced citizens? Oh no, he's going to have to agree to reforms at a minimum.. and if I was him, I'd look for a nice country to spend my extorted funds in and relax for the rest of my life. Or replay the Saddam hanging video or photos of Mussolini till the idea seems appealling.

Because the only option is to flatten ALL the cities there ahve been ANY dissent in and then cluster bomb ALL the refugee camps with Syrian citizens in it.

[ShadowFox89]

Because the only option is to flatten ALL the cities there ahve been ANY dissent in and then cluster bomb ALL the refugee camps with Syrian citizens in it.

Which he has the support (from Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah) to do.

[Callie Del Noire]

Which he has the support (from Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah) to do.

Hey.. it's not THEIR people that he'll kill.  Iran uses them as justification, Hezbollah stays their puppet terror group in Lebanon and Russia keeps a good Arms Buyer.

[ShadowFox89]

 And US gets told "hey, you have Israel so it's all even".

[Callie Del Noire]

And US gets told "hey, you have Israel so it's all even".

Don't get me started. I'm still a bit miffed we put out issues and declarations and we let the SAME shit happen in Isreal. There IS a LOT of issues that antagonize the Palestians that the government is blithely ignoring.

[Dashenka]

And US gets told "hey, you have Israel so it's all even".

I can't believe you blame Russia for allegedly supporting the Syrian government to bomb it's own people but don't condemn the US government for accepting the atrocities the Israeli government is committing.

Because the only option is to flatten ALL the cities there ahve been ANY dissent in and then cluster bomb ALL the refugee camps with Syrian citizens in it.

Which he has the support (from Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah) to do.

Are you really that simple that you believe Russia would support Assad to cluster bomb the refugee camps?

[ShadowFox89]

Are you really that simple that you believe Russia would support Assad to cluster bomb the refugee camps?

First off, don't go anywhere near personal insults.

Second, Russia has shown plenty of times in the past that they are willing to help whatever atrocities their allies want done.

[Dashenka]

First off, don't go anywhere near personal insults.

Second, Russia has shown plenty of times in the past that they are willing to help whatever atrocities their allies want done.

So that justifies everybody in the UN to accept what Israel is doing on a much larger scale?


Both Lavrov and Putin said that is Assad is behind the chemical attacks, he has crossed a line. They want proof first though so they came up with the plan that's currently being worked on to keep both the US and Syria 'happy'. The US because something is being done about the chemical weapons, Syria because the US is not going to bomb innocent victims chemical weapon storages.

When did anybody in the US government condemn Israel for anything they did against the palestinians and try to come up with a solution that actually worked? Never. So yes, Russia might support the Palestinians and wants to force the UN into action to do something about that by playing their cards right. 'We block any intervention in Syria as long as the US blocks any intervention in Israel.'

Is it fair? No perhaps not, but it's how politics between two arogant nations work.

If the US is going into Syria on their own, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is going to Israel on their own. (As in, without a UN mandate as it's apparently worth fuck all to the US.)

[Callie Del Noire]

I can't believe you blame Russia for allegedly supporting the Syrian government to bomb it's own people but don't condemn the US government for accepting the atrocities the Israeli government is committing.

Are you really that simple that you believe Russia would support Assad to cluster bomb the refugee camps?

1.  If you missed it, this is a discussion about SYRIA.  Do I have issues with Isreals continued violations of their agreements, yes. Said so in the past. Been 'invited' to leave GOP function for bringing it up.

2. Keep the insults out of it. 

That being said, YES I do think Putin is VERY much okay with the shelling/bombing of refugee camps (rebel staging area) and anything else that keeps his clients (The Assad regime) in power.  At the beginning of the conflict, Russia was really big on this as a 'Internal Matter'. And we all know how Putin prefers everyone to stay out of 'Internal Matters' within Russia. You know, like when a journalist gets shot dead in her office building on his BIRTHDAY after she writes a series of nasty articles on corruption in his Government. Or the declaration that his people will investigate separately of the English police the death by polonium poisoning of a dissident. (That way suspects never get extradited to the UK)

Did you think he was supporting Assad purely for money? No, he knows any precedent set in places like Syria, Libyia or elsewhere will b used to set measures on him later if things unravel. He has done an AMAZING job in increasing the Russian economy but as the money comes in, dissent over the rampant corruption within the system WILL grow. Sooner or later, killing journalists and dissatisfied citizens won't be enough. Fun note, depending on how the numbers have been read, as many as 200 journalist have been killed in Russia in the last 2 decades. That makes for an interesting point to dissent in Russia I'd say.

Look back over the 'Arab Spring' uprisings. Almost every single time, Russia's initial standing has been a hands off approach that was pro-establishment regardless of how peaceful the 'insurgent' groups were.

Russia didn't see an issue with Syrian Army attacks on or near Refugee camps in Turkey, outside Damascus and I am sure they won't in the future. I don't see aNy concerns on Russia for attacks on Western journalists in Syria either.  So, yeah, if Assad turns over the chemical weapons I think Putin would be okay with Assad cluster bombing a Refugee camp, sorry 'rebel staging area'. After all, Assad has refused to recognize the rebels as anything other than 'terrorists.' 

Ironic, considering Syria's past sponsorship of similar groups elsewhere.

[Dashenka]

1.  If you missed it, this is a discussion about SYRIA.  Do I have issues with Isreals continued violations of their agreements, yes. Said so in the past. Been 'invited' to leave GOP function for bringing it up.

Well if you really want to go down that way this discussion was about the US getting involved into the Syrian conflict. Russia and China were only brought into the discussion later on.

My remarks about Israel weren't addressed to you. I've already established that we agree on the most of the actions that should (or should not) be taken. Russia's part in this whole matter is irrelevant. If the US (and France) want a military invention in Syria they'll go anyway, because they don't value the UN and the point of the US being in the US is completely pointless. But that too is not the discussion and I'm rambling again.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well if you really want to go down that way this discussion was about the US getting involved into the Syrian conflict. Russia and China were only brought into the discussion later on.

My remarks about Israel weren't addressed to you. I've already established that we agree on the most of the actions that should (or should not) be taken. Russia's part in this whole matter is irrelevant. If the US (and France) want a military invention in Syria they'll go anyway, because they don't value the UN and the point of the US being in the US is completely pointless. But that too is not the discussion and I'm rambling again.

Point of fact, I responded to the 'are you simple' comment.

As for 'military response'. It's not going to happen. At least the US won't do a major military reaction on their own. ditto the UK. France is the only ally that seems to want to do it at this point. Realistically, I think that it should be part of any measure before the UN Security council, to give that proposal 'teeth'. I don't see Russia (much less China) supporting it at this point. You would have to see an escalation that can be decisively proven.

The President wants the OPTION, not to do it.. but to have it. Because without a military option Assad will continue down the road that started with him shooting protestors in the street two years ago.

But let's be honest, short of Turkey asking for NATO to get involved after another bombing/shelling of camps in THEIR territory, I don't see a legitimate option for military action coming up. Russia and China will obstruct any other option. No matter the civilian cost.

[mia h]

So the UN report points the finger at Assad and the Russian made rockets that were used to deliver Sarin, and suddenly the Russian Foreign Minister starts back pedaling on the timetable and contents of the UN resolution.

Hands up those are surprised.

[Callie Del Noire]

So the UN report points the finger at Assad and the Russian made rockets that were used to deliver Sarin, and suddenly the Russian Foreign Minister starts back pedaling on the timetable and contents of the UN resolution.

Hands up those are surprised.

In his defense, the use of Sarin does push for a Chapter 7 response and that was something Russia has been trying to avoid since day 1. They don't want UN mandated military action and have been fairly resolute about it.

[Dashenka]

Just something I found rather hilarious and tragic at the same time:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/16/time-mag-hides-putins-success-from-u-s-voters/

[ShadowFox89]

 Wait.

There's people who still read Time Magazine?

[Dashenka]

That's not the point. Putin prevented an even bigger escalation in Syria by coming up with this deal. Without that, the US and some 'allies' would have already launched attacks at Syria, with God know what happening after that.

Putin and Lavrov prevented that and therefore saved a lot of lives. The fact that the American media refuses to broadcast that on the television and still clings to the hopeless belief that it was actually Obama coming up with that idea and thus it being Obama or the Americans who came up with the idea is just rubbish. Similar things happened in 1939 in Germany with a certain guy.

Russia made this deal and prevented further escalation, NOT the US, and it's striking that the whole world seems to know this, except the Americans. Now that's either because they are stupid (which I know they are NOT) or it's because the media in the US is biased.

[mia h]

Actually it was John Kerry's suggestion and he doesn't have that many good ideas so at give credit to the right guy.

And Russia hasn't made any deal; the French put forward the UN Security Council Resolution which Russia is saying it won't sign. As the plan to disarm Syria is contingent on that Resolution passing nothing has really changed, Assad might have signed up to the International Chemical Weapons convention but that doesn't make use of chemical weapons on Syrians by Syrians an actionable offense, that would still require a UN Security Council Resolution which Russia will veto.

As for 1939 the rest of the world is Neville Chamberlain and they're holding in their hands a piece of paper from the other guy, played by Putin & Assad, and we all know what that was worth.

[ShadowFox89]

That's not the point. Putin prevented an even bigger escalation in Syria by coming up with this deal. Without that, the US and some 'allies' would have already launched attacks at Syria, with God know what happening after that.

Putin didn't do anything except give Assad the rockets he needed to gas his own people. Kerry is the one who came up with the idea and Putin ran with it so he could see Syria more weapons.

[Dashenka]

The plan for Syria to put it's chemical weapons under UN supervision was a Russian plan. The fact that you think otherwise only strengthens my point that the American media are clueless and are writing everything in the US advantage. Again... same thing happened in 1939 in Germany.

Putin didn't 'give' anything to Assad. He sold it.

[Neysha]

What's with the mindless equivocations to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany?

Furthermore helping bring about a solution or peace plan you know you won't ultimately support smacks of Germany in 1938.

[Kythia]

What's with the mindless equivocations to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany?

Furthermore helping bring about a solution or peace plan you know you won't ultimately support smacks of Germany in 1938.

While that may be true, saying mean things about Russia smacks of Germany in 1942.

Hey, this is fun.

[ShadowFox89]

While that may be true, saying mean things about Russia smacks of Germany in 1942.

Hey, this is fun.

Hey, you know who else repressed gays and hosted the Olympics?

Hitler!