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Author Topic: US warships near Syrian waters  (Read 8998 times)

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Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #250 on: September 10, 2013, 04:24:00 PM »
Yes but that shouldn't and probably wouldn't be the reason why Russia would not allow a large UN squad to really inspect and secure the chemical weaponry Assad has.

Alright.. I'll ask this.. because it's getting to me.

Why are you willing to give Putin a measure of respite that you don't seem to like giving any other world leader? You are willing to give Assad and Putin a hell of a lot more leeway than any other politician mentioned in this thread.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #251 on: September 10, 2013, 04:33:14 PM »
Alright.. I'll ask this.. because it's getting to me.

Why are you willing to give Putin a measure of respite that you don't seem to like giving any other world leader? You are willing to give Assad and Putin a hell of a lot more leeway than any other politician mentioned in this thread.

I'm not giving anybody respite. If I was a world leader I'd bomb the entire country flat or do nothing at all. Not some half assed intervention. I agree with Obama that something should be done but I also agree with Putin that we need definitive proof that it WAS Assad and not the rebels. Kerry saying he has the proof sounds alarmingly like the statement that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and you can only imagine what happens if it really was the rebels that launched the chemical weapons attack.

A military intervention just to show Assad you cannot use chemical weapons is, as stated by others before me, hypocrit and I therefore do NOT agree with Obama on WHAT should be done.

Putin saying that the chemical weapons should be controlled by the UN, is obviously what everybody in the world wants... Assad no longer using chemical weapons. That seems to be the only goal of any intervention by anybody, so by having Assad handing over his chemical weapons, as Putin suggested, everybody's happy. (Except of course the millions of Syrians who are suffering on a daily basis, but that doesn't seem to be the point of any of the world leaders.)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #252 on: September 10, 2013, 04:45:48 PM »
It's been obvious for some time that the words "regime change" are now poisoned - because of Iraq. The White House has been fairly open over the past year or two that they really want Assad to step down and make way for another, more legitimate and human leadership, and effectively that means exerting pressure on him, making him see he can't stay in place - or finally doing it the hard way - but no one is going to openly say that "yes, we want the guy and his cronies out as our primary goal, even if it means occupation or intervention into some parts of Syria".
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:47:17 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #253 on: September 10, 2013, 04:49:13 PM »
But what happens if the rebel really did launch the chemical attack in order to get support from the West? Just a question as it's not entirely out of the question. Those rebels are just as bad as Assad.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #254 on: September 10, 2013, 04:52:30 PM »
But what happens if the rebel really did launch the chemical attack in order to get support from the West? Just a question as it's not entirely out of the question. Those rebels are just as bad as Assad.

They don't have that kind of weapons, nor the means of firing them with rockets or airplanes. And that goes for the napalm attack on a school last week too - the rebels didn't have any capacity of delivering the stuff from the air. Many witnesses on the spot stated that the flammable substance was dropped from a military aircraft.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:56:21 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online ShadowFox89

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #255 on: September 10, 2013, 04:53:15 PM »
But what happens if the rebel really did launch the chemical attack in order to get support from the West? Just a question as it's not entirely out of the question. Those rebels are just as bad as Assad.

 With what planes?

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #256 on: September 10, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »
You know what.. now that I think of it... wouldn't even surprise me if it was an Israeli jet.

Just makes no sense for Assad to do it on the same day a UN inspection is being held. Even for him that would be stupid.

Anyway, maybe the rebels didn't do this chemical attack but they did murder innocent people, just as the Assad government did.

Online ShadowFox89

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #257 on: September 10, 2013, 05:08:04 PM »
You know what.. now that I think of it... wouldn't even surprise me if it was an Israeli jet.

 I... You know what, I give up. You're never going to acknowledge that Putin and Assad could have anything to do with the chemical attacks unless there's a picture of Assad himself piloting the aircraft, and I'm never going to acknowledge that Putin is anything less than an evil corrupt bastard.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #258 on: September 10, 2013, 05:13:41 PM »
I... You know what, I give up. You're never going to acknowledge that Putin and Assad could have anything to do with the chemical attacks unless there's a picture of Assad himself piloting the aircraft, and I'm never going to acknowledge that Putin is anything less than an evil corrupt bastard.

Dude, I never said it isn't Assad. I just said that it COULD be the rebels as well since they are just as bad as Assad is. Unless you count sawing off people's heads when they have a different religion as justified war crimes.

Which is why I would bomb the entire country flat if I was a political leader. Couple million Syrians have already fled. Give the rest a few days to flee... everybody who stays... tough luck. Bomb it, then rebuild it. Problem solved.

Dasha for president.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #259 on: September 10, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »
"We're going to turn Cuba into a parking lot."

-quote attributed to general Curtis LeMay, during the Cuban Missile crisis.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #260 on: September 10, 2013, 05:30:46 PM »
Or.....

We could dump the cooling water for Fukushima over Damascus. Solves two problems.... the Syrian crisis and Japan can focus on building crappy hatchback cars again rather than try to fight the radiation.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #261 on: September 10, 2013, 05:33:46 PM »
Or.....

We could dump the cooling water for Fukushima over Damascus. Solves two problems.... the Syrian crisis and Japan can focus on building crappy hatchback cars again rather than try to fight the radiation.

And you moved from opposing/differing opinion to troll with that. I'm done
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 05:38:28 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Online Neysha

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #262 on: September 10, 2013, 05:35:13 PM »
Or.....

We could dump the cooling water for Fukushima over Damascus. Solves two problems.... the Syrian crisis and Japan can focus on building crappy hatchback cars again rather than try to fight the radiation.

I don't think that's possible logistically speaking even if there was a will to do so.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #263 on: September 10, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »
I'm sure the Japanese will find a way. If anybody can it's them



Callie, the thing Putin suggests doesn't solve the problem. What Obama suggests doesn't solve the problem either, it only risks in escalating it even further.

The problem can't be solved. But of all the plans I've heard so far, having the chemical weapons under UN supervision is the best plan so far as it at least rules out further use of them.

Ideally there is going to be a military intervention but as stated a few pages back, what happens after that.... There are religious minorities who are terrified that the rebels win.

There just isn't a good way to end this conflict.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #264 on: September 10, 2013, 05:55:00 PM »
I fail to see how one of the worlds largest Kleptocrats can profit from a plan that will never fly past the UN Security Council.

Putin has links to groups that have supplied arms to Kurds to destabilize the region as well as sell arms and material to any government with the cash to do so. The 'bribe economy' in Russia totals over 300 BILLION a year and the Russian government has obstructed almost any measure in the council for years.

One of the reasons that Bush pushed through Iraq on his agenda was knowing that Russia would NEVER support any UN action in the Gulf state region. Almost every federal enforcement division in the EU has complained of the high power links between the Russian Mob and Putin's government. Spain AND Italy both going as far as to use the world 'indistinguishable' in their statements.

Don't throw Putin out as the voice of reason till he flies to Bejing and comes away with the Chinese government agreeing to UN Security Council action. Putin has be the 'voice of reason' before but shows little to no 'walk' to follow up his 'talk'.

I can at least respect the UK house of Parliament for their refusal to act. They are tired just like us, while Putin sits on the sidelines and does little more than wring his hands, telling everyone to stay out of Russian domestic issues and let his cronies profit from regional instability.

You know what might have helped Syria?  A UN resolution passed 18 months ago. Before SOMEONE used chemical weapons. As for the charges that the rebels did, I'm sorry.. Logistically they do not have the gear to do it. If they had aircraft, Assad would be living in a bunker 24/7.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 06:08:36 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Online Zeitgeist

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #265 on: September 10, 2013, 06:13:55 PM »
All I can say is I am so relieved Obama picked Biden as his Vice Presidential Candidate back in 2008 and again for his second term. I mean, where would we be without Biden's foreign relations experience!?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/us/politics/24biden.html?_r=0

<sarcasm />

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #266 on: September 10, 2013, 06:19:43 PM »
All I can say is I am so relieved Obama picked Biden as his Vice Presidential Candidate back in 2008 and again for his second term. I mean, where would we be without Biden's foreign relations experience!?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/us/politics/24biden.html?_r=0

<sarcasm />

I prefer to remind myself that he ain't no Dick Chaney either. We've had worse VPs. Remember Dan Quayle?

Online Zeitgeist

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #267 on: September 10, 2013, 06:23:48 PM »
I prefer to remind myself that he ain't no Dick Chaney either. We've had worse VPs. Remember Dan Quayle?

More to the point it was believed Obama's foreign relations experience needed shoring up and it was widely believed Biden fit that bill. Did Obama need that shoring up? Looks painfully obvious now he did/does. Hell, Kerry has looked more presidential in this whole mess than anyone, particularly our, well, president.

Offline Ascia

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #268 on: September 10, 2013, 06:24:08 PM »

Also I'm not sure if Assad is really impressed with the American warship near the Syrian waters. He knows he got backup from Iran should it come to that.

Iran can't do much against a CAG. Considering the Chinese and Russians send spy planes after our carriers in the region all the time, I bet if he's not a little impressed he's lost all touch with reality.

Offline Ascia

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #269 on: September 10, 2013, 06:28:11 PM »
More to the point it was believed Obama's foreign relations experience needed shoring up and it was widely believed Biden fit that bill. Did Obama need that shoring up? Looks painfully obvious now he did/does. Hell, Kerry has looked more presidential in this whole mess than anyone, particularly our, well, president.

In a world defined by people picking which FACTS they subscribe to, I'm not sure it really affects anything. In other words, Syria won't change how people see Obama good or bad. Might change how history sees him...but only if it gets out of hand.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #270 on: September 10, 2013, 07:10:27 PM »
Iran can't do much against a CAG. Considering the Chinese and Russians send spy planes after our carriers in the region all the time, I bet if he's not a little impressed he's lost all touch with reality.

You know.. they looked real cute on the scopes.. I'd bring up the systems and we could ID all aircraft within 100+ miles of the Carrier Group by IFF and other signatures. It's AMAZING how far chinese manufactured aircraft would follow us into the pacific.

Also.. the first P-3 Orion I ever saw was an Iranian one that followed our group through the straits of Hormus in '96

Offline Ascia

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #271 on: September 10, 2013, 07:16:46 PM »
You know.. they looked real cute on the scopes.. I'd bring up the systems and we could ID all aircraft within 100+ miles of the Carrier Group by IFF and other signatures. It's AMAZING how far chinese manufactured aircraft would follow us into the pacific.

Also.. the first P-3 Orion I ever saw was an Iranian one that followed our group through the straits of Hormus in '96

The Chinese have stealth aircraft that rightly scare naval folks. It's good our navies aren't competing for the same goal. Yet anyway.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #272 on: September 10, 2013, 07:22:06 PM »
The Chinese have stealth aircraft that rightly scare naval folks. It's good our navies aren't competing for the same goal. Yet anyway.

Those were simply drawings on a drawing board back then.. of course their new Attack Choppers got tech courtesy of US/Canadian companies.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #273 on: September 11, 2013, 03:15:22 AM »
I fail to see how one of the worlds largest Kleptocrats can profit from a plan that will never fly past the UN Security Council.

Putin has links to groups that have supplied arms to Kurds to destabilize the region as well as sell arms and material to any government with the cash to do so. The 'bribe economy' in Russia totals over 300 BILLION a year and the Russian government has obstructed almost any measure in the council for years.

One of the reasons that Bush pushed through Iraq on his agenda was knowing that Russia would NEVER support any UN action in the Gulf state region. Almost every federal enforcement division in the EU has complained of the high power links between the Russian Mob and Putin's government. Spain AND Italy both going as far as to use the world 'indistinguishable' in their statements.

Don't throw Putin out as the voice of reason till he flies to Bejing and comes away with the Chinese government agreeing to UN Security Council action. Putin has be the 'voice of reason' before but shows little to no 'walk' to follow up his 'talk'.

I can at least respect the UK house of Parliament for their refusal to act. They are tired just like us, while Putin sits on the sidelines and does little more than wring his hands, telling everyone to stay out of Russian domestic issues and let his cronies profit from regional instability.

You know what might have helped Syria?  A UN resolution passed 18 months ago. Before SOMEONE used chemical weapons. As for the charges that the rebels did, I'm sorry.. Logistically they do not have the gear to do it. If they had aircraft, Assad would be living in a bunker 24/7.

I'm not doing that. I still believe a military intervention to disarms THE ENTIRE COUNTRY would be the best solution in Syria, but since Obama agrees with and sees the plan from Russia as a 'possible breakthrough', it's the best we got so far.

I do agree with the bribe culture in Russia as I've experienced it for 18 year but I fail to see how that is related to the Russian government supplying weapons to minority groups in the middle east.

Offline mia h

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #274 on: September 11, 2013, 06:30:33 AM »
Dude, I never said it isn't Assad.

You know what.. now that I think of it... wouldn't even surprise me if it was an Israeli jet.

Just makes no sense for Assad to do it on the same day a UN inspection is being held. Even for him that would be stupid.

You were saying?

On the 'upside' it looks like France's UN resolution is going to be done under Chapter 7, so if Syria\Assad didn't behave themselves and didn't comply fully it wouldn't need a second UN resolution to allow the ue of force. It also gets the UK and US governments out of the political problems of public support.