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Author Topic: Liege  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline AK47Topic starter

Liege
« on: February 18, 2013, 06:34:39 PM »
On other roleplaying and erotic roleplayig communities I usually prefer to keep my gender ambiguous, but when I first signed up the first thing I was asked was my gender. I notice however that this community does have an option for GLBTQ members, classifying them as Lieges. Could I get my title changed?

Offline Saffron

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Re: Liege
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2013, 06:37:56 PM »
You can request the title of Liege by PMing a purple staff moderator and explaining why you would like the Liege title. Gender is kept public on Elliquiy and the Liege tag is not used to leave that 'unknown' but for those who do not meet the other two gender options.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 06:40:38 PM by Saffron »

Offline Remiel

Re: Liege
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 11:14:15 PM »
sent you a PM, AK47.

Offline kylie

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Re: Liege
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 01:11:55 AM »
On other roleplaying and erotic roleplayig communities I usually prefer to keep my gender ambiguous, but when I first signed up the first thing I was asked was my gender. I notice however that this community does have an option for GLBTQ members, classifying them as Lieges. Could I get my title changed?
  GLB is not addressing the same question really; GLB are defined as about orientation, or who you generally wish to play with. 

Some but by no means all T, T-considering, plus genderqueer, genderfluid, agender-ish, etc. etc. happen to be lieges where they (we since this is me) don't identify with the other options as much.  The point is that we have real concerns and other views about gender in general, not only on the site or for the sake of roleplaying.

One thing you can do is simply not assign a value to the male/female option in the profile. 

If it were up to me personally, I'd remove or optionalize gender agh, make that sex (people keep saying one when they're mainly referring to the other!) as an ingredient in the avatar labels.  But then apparently 'the world would fall apart' or so the conventional wisdom goes.  Anyway yeah, E doesn't do that.

 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 01:16:46 AM by kylie »

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Re: Liege
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 11:34:36 AM »
But then apparently 'the world would fall apart' or so the conventional wisdom goes.  Anyway yeah, E doesn't do that.

Just as a note, I don't think the world would fall apart but I do very much enjoy socializing in the Ladies Only board, and find it to be an enjoyable part of my experience. I also enjoy talking in the other boards; I'm not trying to exclude anyone. But I would be very sad if it went, because the relaxed atmosphere really does seem to contribute to some decidedly interesting and fun conversations.

Online Vekseid

Re: Liege
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 11:40:35 AM »
Most transgendered/genderqueer/etc. who identify as lord or lady stay out of the LO boards. Most of the outright fakers do too.

Offline kylie

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Re: Liege
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 04:25:50 PM »
     Okay, we may all be answering different precise questions, but the OP said the overall aim was being "gender ambiguous."  I said, if it were up to me -- and I have no illusions that it is -- then I would take sex out of the avatar labels.  To me, that is a first step that would allow people who are not looking for member sex at every moment, to be free of being forced to look at some representation of it all the time.  As it is, there's little to no room for ambiguity or for neglecting self-reported sex there, at any moment.  Unless you cut off the avatars, but they're too pretty for that.

Just as a note, I don't think the world would fall apart but I do very much enjoy socializing in the Ladies Only board, and find it to be an enjoyable part of my experience. I also enjoy talking in the other boards; I'm not trying to exclude anyone. But I would be very sad if it went, because the relaxed atmosphere really does seem to contribute to some decidedly interesting and fun conversations.
     When I euphemistically say the world would end, what I had in mind is this: I asked early on about whether we might be able to do without the labels placing one of the 3 L's (Edit: Oops, at the time there were only 2 L's.) in the bar under the name and over the avatar photo.  As I recall it, I was told that if it were removed, the majority would just demand that player sex be labelled about that frequently again.

     Here, I didn't say anything about either the Introductions or private communications with Staff.  But since you mention it...  It is not necessary to have the label on everyone's profile every second, in order to set up membership for those "Only" boards.  If you would, imagine a spectrum where on one side we have no discussion of player sex required at all.  On the opposite end, you have player sex labeled by every post (which we do, due to the nature of what's in the title bars).  Somewhere between those extremes, there are other possible alternatives: 

  • Ask player sex through PM or a private form, rather than having it posted in Introductions. 
    Only the Staff and your own community know for sure.
  • Ask player sex in Introductions, but not do not involve it in the title bar by the avatar.
    Anyone can look it up, but it's not on every single post.
  • Leave player sex somewhere in the posts -- but make it small, and less eyecatching -- not situated right over the avie picture.
    Not my ideal as I wonder where we could "hide" it exactly...  But right now, the titles make it "live" directly under the player name and by the avie picture in big black letters.  Maybe in some upper/lower right hand corner as a very small letter?  XD
  • Add to viewing preferences: Player sex bar (or title since it's one and the same) under avatars visible to me, or not.
  • Add to viewing preferences: My sex bar over my avatar visible to me, or not.
    Because sometimes I get sick of being reminded what sex I'm "supposed" to be representative of, while I'm sitting here typing up things that may be flights of imagination or not hinged on all my questions about sex and gender, just this minute. 
     I didn't mean to hijack but since you responded that way:  Any of those intermediate options would allow those who want a little less focus on player sex, a little more room.  None of them would endanger the "Only" communities.  Of course, the people in those communities would still know who was inside them.  In cases 2, 3, 4, and 5, anyone would be still able to view declared sex.  The difference would be in whether everyone is all but required to view poster sex -- in a super prominent, eye-grabbing way (in my opinion) with every post.     
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 12:55:29 PM by kylie »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Liege
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
That post was interesting to read, kylie. Thank you for making it. :)

Offline PaleEnchantress

Re: Liege
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »
I do like that, aside from title, we have a gender option. For lords and ladies it's pretty much set that the gender tag matches the title. For lieges it's really nice to be able to acknowledge that we all have our own physical sexual characteristics/identity's and aren't one universally homogenous "Other" group.

As far as the topic of "Can you hide your gender from view", people have already pointed out that you can't. It's worth noting that a Liege with a blank gander tag is an identity in itself rather then a special "I'm not telling" option. I've never had a problem with the gender or title displays on the profile. We are, after all, a little more personal than the average global mass social forum.   It is worth considering though. I'm sure the moderators will continue to do what they feel will best benefit the site.

Offline GothicFires

Re: Liege
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 12:59:21 PM »
I personally like the gender tags. While I believe that smf is a little binary, stating your identified gender to me is an indication that the people here, as a whole, are open and trustworthy. Though it wouldn't have mattered to me, the first time I realized that a male character that my female character interacted with was controlled by a women was a bit of a shock.

The gender of a partner doesn't bother me, but for some it does bother. And while I may not agree with their decision. I do respect their decision to rp with the actual gender of their choosing.

If you are a physical female who identifies as male, you can already choose the male tag. I know of members who do so. It is possible for a physical male who identifies as female to choose the male tag. Yes some people may do this as a predatory choice but staff is good at filtering and if people report the behavior those offenders are quickly dealt with.

My question is why would a person need to hide their tag? Why make it more difficult to go look for something that shouldn't matter? For most it doesn't matter who they rp with. but we don't just rp here. We talk and communicate. I don't want to have to click on every profile to determine if the person I am reading should have a masculine or feminine voice.  I don't want to have to click on a profile to determine what pronouns I should use.

I don't think our current system is broken, maybe not complete, but not broken.

Offline kylie

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Re: Liege
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 01:53:59 AM »
     I am thinking having sex completely hidden would drive things a little bonkers -- but I'm going to hold out for having an option to get it out of your own view sometimes, and possibly to get it out of certain types of posts or threads.  Btw, if someone wants to move part of the thread elsewhere, I don't mind.  I know we're branching off the OP question into Suggestions.  On the other hand, I think maybe a little more discussion could help clear it up a little for new arrivals how this is set up.  Hmms, not sure which is better.

Quote from: Trieste
That post was interesting to read, kylie. Thank you for making it. :)
     You're welcome!  Struck me as an odd response there, but without it I wouldn't have started going on about possible alternatives  ;)

Quote from: PaleEnchantress
I do like that, aside from title, we have a gender option.
     Yeah, actually I'm thinking at this point more choices is generally good.  Personally, I like the separate marker much more (whether you imagine that actually stands for gender or sex or both, shrugs) because you can leave it blank.  But you can't do that with the title bar as things stand.  You can't have a title that isn't a (I believe usually though maybe not always, on E, medically based) sex declaration.  You also can't get it out of the most obvious place in your posts.  You can't even get it out of your own view.  And this really nags me.

Quote from: PaleEnchantress
It's worth noting that a Liege with a blank gander tag is an identity in itself rather then a special "I'm not telling" option.
     I really do appreciate that too.  Although for some reason, the word "Champion" always struck me as awfully masculine.  I suppose I should broaden my imagination there and go write something about rocking Amazons etc.  But I can't seem to get it out of my head that it's something you would see more with the National Football League advertising (so not my gender leaning). 

     I also kind of miss the green of the Liege tag.  The gold is not really my thing and to me also often just feels a little harsh and imposing, even putting me on the spot.  To my fussy and color-sensitive mind, it's not very gender ambiguous or generally too comforting.  Probably some people really like the gold, and that's okay.  There are probably other possible color tones that would have made me feel much less at ease, had they been chosen.  But I don't have options for the color of that bar, either.  I have thought somewhat about asking to just have it reverted to Liege, but I've been torn about whether I really enjoy the recognition for having paid a bit.  I've also wondered a little if it would just make staff feel put upon, being asked to change a title bar (or even maybe, a little reluctant to remove a title that refers to payment). 

Quote from: GothicFires
It is possible for a physical male who identifies as female to choose the male tag. Yes some people may do this as a predatory choice but staff is good at filtering and if people report the behavior those offenders are quickly dealt with.
     I'd be uncomfortable selecting this for myself.  My feelings about gender vary enough that I notice and have a lot going on, so being asked to pick from a binary bugs me sometimes.  Even if I try and go with the well, culturally a drop of feminine makes you not "really" masculine:  Then I have enough nervousness to worry about whether I'm "passing," even if I know I tend to lean more feminine in ways that are important to me.  You may say oh just pick one and be loud and proud, but it's a particular argument I don't wish to spend time on with those who want to pick over the bone.  I avoid them by not labeling myself in a way that tempts them. 
   
     I also would be worried about being taken for predatory (not so much by staff per se, but by others)...  Or simply, for having a profile entry that many people couldn't make heads or tails of.  That can be read as confusing (if not intentionally devious, there we are again) and too much work to sort out, before they even message you.

Quote from: GothicFires
    For most it doesn't matter who they rp with. but we don't just rp here. We talk and communicate. I don't want to have to click on every profile to determine if the person I am reading should have a masculine or feminine voice.  I don't want to have to click on a profile to determine what pronouns I should use.
     Wait up...  You decide what voice to attach to us Lieges how, exactly?  I mean, those of us who don't select a gender marker under the picture. 

     I don't know what kind of evidence you have that most don't care who they roleplay with.  If I can manage going into Introductions at the same time I scroll through the Wanteds, to start guessing whether many players will even consider playing with cross-gender writers, then why would it be a hassle for you to click once to see sex when you look up a new author?  Perhaps it could even be coded to pop out on the same screen.  I will grant you this may actually be too much to ask of many people, but I wonder why. 

     Although lately, I have the impression more people are actually opening their Wanteds with statements of what players, as well as characters, they do (and therefore don't) wish to RP with.  I don't see so much evidence that no one cares -- quite the contrary.  I'd be slightly more likely to suppose that one could try and argue that maybe RP preferences should be on every sidebar.  Why are we presumed here to "communicate" in ways that apparently require knowing others' sex at every turn, more than we are here to know who wants to play with us?  There may be answers, but I think it's an interesting side question.   

Quote from: GothicFires
While I believe that smf is a little binary, stating your identified gender to me is an indication that the people here, as a whole, are open and trustworthy.
     I don't see that not stating it would make people devious.  Hardly more than lieges in general 'must' be unreliable because we curl up our noses a bit at the binary system.  I do think that when I have to see what is essentially a sex or gender marker on others' posts, that makes me feel pressured to modify how I myself write, how I read what others write, how I interact with people, and sometimes who I choose to interact with. 

     If you imagine that the primary thing most people are doing is either looking for a roleplay partner -- using sex as a way to narrow down for their orientation, and they are doing this constantly the story would go -- (and I'm not convinced that most people here don't care)...  Or perhaps it's thinking, "Oh but does this person live as a man, woman, or other day to day so I can decide how to evaluate their On Topic etc. posts, or maybe decide if their roleplay is sometimes realistic better for my purposes!" Then you need to be sure you can practically always see a marker.  Maybe?

Yet to me, this is not information that is sooooo important that it needs to be under my name on every post.  Certainly, it's not something where I need to be reminded of my own sex assignment (or gender, now that we're in the category of assigned by someone else, as opposed to what I might feel at any given time). 

There are so many times that I don't want anything around the name or avie that reminds me there was some question there about basically player sex:
  • When I'd rather read other people's ideas without my orientation or expectations for a given sex/gender getting in the way
  • When I'm roleplaying something that I may identify with strongly yet it takes me a little stretch to get into it well, and stay immersed
  • When I am thinking about other really abstract questions (where sex/gender can become a separate, rather distracting puzzle in itself)
  • When I don't want to place a fixed sex or gender label of any kind on what I'm doing or feeling at the moment
    (Or, when I know the label I would pick is not a popular one and not listed among the available options - but it's more important than the simple "difference" of liegeness to me.)

     So that is what is behind my (yes, initially rather overstated) desire to get player sex off the sidebar.  I concede that option 1 with no publicly available listing is probably a bit too much.  But I don't see why I should have to have it emblazoned by my own name for my viewing, if it nags me.   I also think there may be some areas where emphasizing sex with each post has unnecessary costs.  Do we really need to keep seeing how many elf women are being written by which sex while we're focused on that story?  Can we process a political point without our eyes wandering straight over to the big colored bar, to check whether we imagine that author actually lives in a given way?  It can be liberating to see how people we might not have expected can write things that grab us, but knowing that label is there every moment can also be distracting in terms of processing the ideas in the posts themselves.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 02:17:17 AM by kylie »

Offline AK47Topic starter

Re: Liege
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 01:58:30 AM »
The only real use for the L tag seems to be the L Only boards. Which I don't like the idea of and have never used. Maybe there should just be an option to opt out of having a Tag.

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Re: Liege
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 11:13:54 PM »
I also kind of miss the green of the Liege tag.  The gold is not really my thing and to me also often just feels a little harsh and imposing, even putting me on the spot.  To my fussy and color-sensitive mind, it's not very gender ambiguous or generally too comforting.  Probably some people really like the gold, and that's okay.

I believe the golden colour of your title there comes from being a donator to the site. As does mine with the upgrade to "Knight/Champion/Dame" from "Lord/Liege/Lady", purple for mentors, etc.

Offline Elina

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Re: Liege
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 11:18:23 PM »
The way to get it back is to let Veks know you don't want your donation acknowledged publicly, I think.

Offline Caeli

Re: Liege
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2013, 11:20:33 PM »
I think kylie already knows that what the gold Champion tag is for, and how to get it reverted:

I also kind of miss the green of the Liege tag.  The gold is not really my thing and to me also often just feels a little harsh and imposing, even putting me on the spot.  To my fussy and color-sensitive mind, it's not very gender ambiguous or generally too comforting.  Probably some people really like the gold, and that's okay.  There are probably other possible color tones that would have made me feel much less at ease, had they been chosen.  But I don't have options for the color of that bar, either.  I have thought somewhat about asking to just have it reverted to Liege, but I've been torn about whether I really enjoy the recognition for having paid a bit.  I've also wondered a little if it would just make staff feel put upon, being asked to change a title bar (or even maybe, a little reluctant to remove a title that refers to payment). 

So yes, letting any administrator (God or Goddess) know that you want to have the non-donater tag of your membergroup back would allow you to have the the tag reverted to Lady/Lord/Liege, from Dame/Knight/Champion.

It's a very simple change to make, if you don't mind having your donation/subscription "recognized" with your tag.

I can't speak for the others, but I had never felt put upon by member requests or questions of any kind.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 11:22:37 PM by Caeli »

Offline AK47Topic starter

Re: Liege
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 11:21:42 PM »
Question, are there any transgender Administrators? If so, what would there tag be? Deity?

Offline Caeli

Re: Liege
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 11:34:11 PM »
Main Membergroup Titles:
Administrators: God, Goddess, Genie
Moderators: Satyr, Siren, Sidhe
Mentors: Lord Mentor, Lady Mentor, Liege Mentor
Donaters: Knight, Dame, Champion
Default: Lord, Lady, Liege


Not precisely related to what you're asking, but I also wanted to tentatively comment that Lieges (and respective groups beyond that) are not necessarily only those who identify as transindividuals; they also include members who identify as 'other' or 'none', or who do not feel that they fit into the gender binary system.*

This is just my understanding of how the tag works; I do not believe there is one all-encompassing rule for who falls under, or who identifies most comfortably with, the Liege tag. It just seems like it would be a very individual thing that may well be different from person to person.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 11:38:30 PM by Caeli »

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Re: Liege
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 11:42:06 PM »
Question, are there any transgender Administrators? If so, what would there tag be? Deity?

Ah, not all transgendered are lieges, and not all leiges are transgendered. Just to make that clear.

Ninja'd, but thank you Caeli, you say it much better

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Re: Liege
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 12:08:33 AM »
D'oh, totally missed that, thanks Caeli.

Offline Geil

Re: Liege
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 05:38:59 AM »
I can see some merits of total gender anonymity, but you can't mix and match that with any system where the information is even partially available.

However, I find that E works pretty well as is. The lord/lady/liege tags are supposed to represent real life, which is a different thing entirely from any character you roleplay, or roleplay with, and, fundamentally, I suspect E provides a more adult 'adult roleplaying' experience from doing it this way.

I did once try to blind myself to gender on E just to see if it was colouring my reactions to other members. I don't think it did, and it took a lot of the (literal) colour, and pretty pictures, out of the browsing experience, and it wasn't complete (but worked reasonably well for the normal threads, if not profiles.) So I turned it all off again.

@Kylie, and anyone else who might want a gender-free Elliquiy browsing experience, here's how far I got:
  • Turn off avatars in your profile
  • Get firefox
  • Install the Addblock Plus firefox extension
  • Right click each of the lord, lady, liege, knight, ... etc. badges, and select 'Adblock plus: Block image...'
  • Install the Element Hiding Helper for Adblock Plus
  • Select 'Select element to hide' from the ABP menu, then click on one of lord, lady, liege, knight, ... etc. text in the sidebar
    (fortunately, one click gets the lot for this as generates the rule "elliquiy.com##.membergroup" and it hides all elements with the 'membergroup' class)
  • Do the same for the gender tag just below the avatar.
  • Remove all gender bias inherent in the language from names ... Ah, er, still working on finding a plugin for that one ;)

Note: I still have the elliquiy.com##.membergroup block on as it simply duplicates info presented by the badge images and uses a line of screen space.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Liege
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 10:14:23 AM »
Remove all gender bias inherent in the language from names ... Ah, er, still working on finding a plugin for that one ;)

There is a Chrome extension called Jailbreak the Patriarchy that is meant to highlight and emphasize how silly gender bias is in normal conversation. Since you went through so many steps to try removing gender from your browsing experience, I thought you might enjoy the experiment.

Nothing to remove gender bias inherent, but I think the developer of JtP is of the opinion that being aware of it is the first step to getting rid of it. I don't know if there is an equivalent for Firefox.

Offline Geil

Re: Liege
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 05:27:43 PM »
Hehe! Thanks for that, Trieste. Sort of perpendicular to what I want, but maybe if I run two browsers side by side, looking at the same page, with one displaying as is and the other feminised by that plugin, maybe I can get a sort of gender-stereo effect that cancels out in the middle. Mmmm.

Ah, no - the way to do this is to get a monitor and glasses capable of 3D display and hack the graphics system to display the two browsers in the same place, but sending different versions to each eye, so where the left eye reads he, the right will get she; left sees father, right sees mother...

(Fortunately, I don't have a 3D monitor.)

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Re: Liege
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 06:04:24 PM »
Ah, no - the way to do this is to get a monitor and glasses capable of 3D display and hack the graphics system to display the two browsers in the same place, but sending different versions to each eye, so where the left eye reads he, the right will get she; left sees father, right sees mother...

(Fortunately, I don't have a 3D monitor.)

Considering that the left side of the brain is supposed to deal with the 'hunter' tasks (logic, caution, analysis, convergence) and the right side deals with 'gatherer' tasks (synthesis, colors, divergence), then putting the masculine forms on the left eye (and therefore right brain) and vice versa should smooth genderedness out rather neatly.