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Author Topic: The Pope gives his resignation.  (Read 3011 times)

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Offline xenondestroyerTopic starter

The Pope gives his resignation.
« on: February 11, 2013, 06:59:04 AM »
I just heard this on the television, apparently the pope is leaving his job on the 28 of february. What do you think of this?

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 07:02:48 AM »
I'm going to miss Darth Sidious and his Imperial March theme.

Offline xenondestroyerTopic starter

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 07:04:13 AM »
"The Republic shall become an Empire!!!"

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 07:33:40 AM »
He is old but come on he will have a cushy last couple of years being the former Pope. Better than most of the other people in the US who are that old I suspect.

On the replacement front its a chance to save their church they need a reformer who willl let priests marry even if its under the Orthodox rules and its one wife for life only and they must get rid of sexual deviants that hurt children, a classic holy inquisition (using modern means) to get them out and hand them to the authorities. Sadly not likely to happen in either case.

If they don't the faith will fall harder. And maybe pick someone of color a new Pope from South America where they have a very strong following yet.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 07:52:23 AM »
Just to give people a sense of perspective, the last papal resignation was Gregory XII in the 1400's.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 08:07:50 AM »
Why do they even need a Pope? They could opt for one Cardinal in each continent with one vote and decide on matters of faith by commitee and leave the Vatican vacant of a Pope. Each Cardinal would overee his area and handle all the finances and matters of business. The "holy spirit" can surely be in a vote of seven over the rule of one just as easily if I get the basic religious idea about the authority right they go by.

And for big things like allowing men to marry if priests they can set it up so the vote must be all seven for it to have that as new doctrine.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 09:15:12 AM »
Same deal as 'why do we need a President'.  After all, each state could opt for one Senator, and they could oversee their individual areas and decide on national stuff by committee.

Oh wait, we've seen how well that works.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 09:42:21 AM »
He is old but come on he will have a cushy last couple of years being the former Pope. Better than most of the other people in the US who are that old I suspect.

On the replacement front its a chance to save their church they need a reformer who willl let priests marry even if its under the Orthodox rules and its one wife for life only and they must get rid of sexual deviants that hurt children, a classic holy inquisition (using modern means) to get them out and hand them to the authorities. Sadly not likely to happen in either case.

If they don't the faith will fall harder. And maybe pick someone of color a new Pope from South America where they have a very strong following yet.

That's a question that crops up quite frequently: why aren't priests and nuns allowed to marry and have families, like certain Protestant faiths allow? The answer is this: because the Church doesn't want to relinquish its control over the priesthood. It's like the worst D/s relationship ever. I doubt this will change any time soon.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 09:49:02 AM »
The amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners is one of the factors looked at in determining how 'cult-like' a group is.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 10:28:56 AM »
Consider this, Benedict is WAY more conservative than John Paul was and he's been this since December in a realistic fashion and possibly longer in some manner as an option. He'll have an influence of the candidates most likely, possibly even talking to cardinals before now. 

Odds are, short of some other group pushing back to a traditional Italian pope, the new one will be his guy.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 10:58:02 AM »

Odds are, short of some other group pushing back to a traditional Italian pope, the new one will be his guy.

Cardinal Peter Turkson is the current favourite.  Black African, Cardinal of Ghana.  Personally I'd rather see a Central or Sothern American pope, but that might well be a step too far.

Offline Moraline

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 11:13:14 AM »
Just to give people a sense of perspective, the last papal resignation was Gregory XII in the 1400's.
That was the first question that popped into my head. Thank you for reading my mind before I even heard this information. Damn, Oniya you are good.

So, what's going on? Any rumors on why? Do we think he's doing it "so" he can hand pick his successor? Think he's trying to set up a papal dynasty or some sort? 

*whispers* Do we think he's under the control of the Dark Lord and he's doing it to place the anti-Christ on the throne?


*edit*
Pope Benedict XVI announces resignation live reaction
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/11/pope-resigns-live-reaction
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 11:14:38 AM by Moraline »

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2013, 11:18:52 AM »
Even if there are other reasons, he is incredibly frail.  Declining strength isn't just a nothing excuse - he's struggling to keep up with the travel schedule and  kinda suspect that might be all it is.  With the current opinion on the Catholic Church I think an active Pope who can travel a lot and be something of a visible head is an important thing for the church.  Obviously I have one too many vaginas to ever be invited in to the inner circle so this is just my speculation but his stated reasons do kinda ring true.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2013, 11:20:22 AM »
Fun note.  Gregory XII wasn't a voluntary resignation. The last VOLUNTARY one goes back ever further. Son thing like the 1200s I think.

Celestine V in 1294. He is the one who formalized the pope's right to abdicate, though others had done it before him.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 11:23:33 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 11:21:49 AM »
Yeah, Clement.  Called the Cardinals, announced he'd checked with God and popes could resign.  Promptly did so.  Kept for the rest of his life in a prison cell just in case his successor was more popular.

Edit:  Serves me right for relying on memory.  Callie is right - Celestine not Clement.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 11:30:55 AM by Kythia »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 11:28:48 AM »
That was the first question that popped into my head. Thank you for reading my mind before I even heard this information. Damn, Oniya you are good.

It's what I do.  ;D

Seriously, as an ex-Catholic, I didn't even know it was possible, so I went hunting for my own curiosity.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 11:45:36 AM »
Looking over a list of papabili on Wikipedia and a few other sites we got a range of ages from 55 to 71. Turkson is 65 and been elevated since 2003, longest in office (tied with Canadian cardinal Oulette, 68). The majority of them are fairly new to office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_papabili_in_the_2013_papal_conclave

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 11:47:32 AM »
That's a question that crops up quite frequently: why aren't priests and nuns allowed to marry and have families, like certain Protestant faiths allow?

Well, I don't know about priests, but being a nun and a married woman are mutually exclusive by definition. :) The whole point of being a nun or a monk is reliquishing one's desire for family and focusing on religious life instead...

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 11:57:16 AM »
Well, I don't know about priests, but being a nun and a married woman are mutually exclusive by definition. :) The whole point of being a nun or a monk is reliquishing one's desire for family and focusing on religious life instead...

Because the Church desires absolute control over them, and got it when the notion of monasteries was first co-opted and put into practice. Nowadays, there's no forced conscription to the clergy, but back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for younger sisters and brothers, or problem relatives, or even criminals, to be condemned to a life of celibacy, silence and prayer at convents and abbeys just so they were out of the way.

Control, control, control.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2013, 11:58:38 AM »
I think the question is more why the Catholic church imposes that definition, when many other faiths don't.  For instance, it's highly unusual for a Rabbi not to be married, as there are certain ceremonial duties assigned to the Rabbi's wife. 

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2013, 12:07:30 PM »
Quote from: Rhapsody
Because the Church desires absolute control over them, and got it when the notion of monasteries was first co-opted and put into practice. Nowadays, there's no forced conscription to the clergy, but back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for younger sisters and brothers, or problem relatives, or even criminals, to be condemned to a life of celibacy, silence and prayer at convents and abbeys just so they were out of the way.

True, but wasn't really the Church's doing, was it? If a family forces a problem relative into a convent, then it's the family that wants control, not the Church.

Quote from: Oniya
I think the question is more why the Catholic church imposes that definition, when many other faiths don't.  For instance, it's highly unusual for a Rabbi not to be married, as there are certain ceremonial duties assigned to the Rabbi's wife.

But a monk or a nun is *not* a Catholic analogue of a rabbi. The Catholic analogue of a rabbi is a priest :)

I completely agree that the priests should be allowed to marry. But married monks or nuns? It's impossible.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2013, 12:13:07 PM »
That's a bit of a false distinction, Beorning.  Monks can be Priests (Choir Monks), and I'd argue that Deacon is the equivalent of Rabbi, not Priest (and Deacons can be married, though they can't get married)

I've always understood the reasoning as wives being a "distraction" that prevent the priest fully giving their life to God.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 12:15:13 PM »
Prior to the Easter/Western doctrine schism, married priests were not uncommon; this followed in the traditions of the apostles being married and as the cardinals and, to a lesser extent, the priests were considered to be spiritual successors to the apostles. There were restrictions on them (and in the Eastern and Oriental traditions today, married men can become priests, but unwed priests cannot marry).

Then the Middle Ages happened, and vows of celibacy became the norm. Part of this was the control the papacy wished to exert over its clergy (a sort of, "If you're married, we don't have your full devotion, because your work will come second" line of thinking, designed to make them even more subject to the Holy See), and part of it was a restructuring of paradigm:

  • The Virgin Mary, a core tenet of Catholic faith, needed to be represented by a virgin priesthood
  • The Bible, while not outright banning marriage, advocated celibacy as the preferred state
  • They didn't want priesthood becoming a hereditary position, as it was for Jews and pagans
  • Virginity meant purity of body and spirit

There's more, but the gist of it is a combination between controlling the mouthpieces through which the papacy spoke to the people by restricting their outlets for devotion, as well as a sort of face lift for the clergy.

Further reading found here.

Quote
I completely agree that the priests should be allowed to marry. But married monks or nuns? It's impossible.

By strict definition, Catholic priests are monks.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 12:20:36 PM »
You're conflating celibacy and unmarried there, Rhapsody.  Priests had to remain celibate since the Synod of Elvira in the 300s, though they could be married.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2013, 12:22:38 PM »
That's a bit of a false distinction, Beorning.  Monks can be Priests (Choir Monks), and I'd argue that Deacon is the equivalent of Rabbi, not Priest (and Deacons can be married, though they can't get married)

I don't know. Aren't rabbis Judaistic priests (meaning, they are in charge of a temple, give spiritual guidance to the community etc.)? That would make them the equivalent of Catholic priests. Monks and nuns have different functions - they pray and follow their congregation's various vocations, i.e. charity work.

Quote
I've always understood the reasoning as wives being a "distraction" that prevent the priest fully giving their life to God.

I agree that the Church might be giving this explanation now, but I don't think it's true. Historically, Christian priests were allowed to marry in the beginnings of the Church.