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Author Topic: The Pope gives his resignation.  (Read 3013 times)

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Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2013, 06:41:56 PM »
Uuhh... Isn't the whole pope thing supposed to be a divine calling? Isn't he supposed to believe and trust in his god's divine plan? Is giving up then, as sinful as a man divorcing his wife ( whom god joined and thus cannot be separated ) ?

Perhaps the rules only apply to the lemming followers but not to those who run the cult.

Not a biggy god talked to him or something and he felt a Call to some other vocation even not in the robes he will hold value as a scholar and theologian in the faith, and then god will pick a replacement.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2013, 09:10:56 PM »
Celestine V, after he stepped down, immediately got jailed by his successor, the ruthless, somewhat powermad Boniface VIII - who was also partly responsible for having Dante sentenced to death by his home city Florence, and thereby securing that the poet (and politician) spent the rest of his years in exile. It must have irked in Dante to stitch a prophesy into the Divine Comedy that Boniface would go to hell, but in the end he abstained...  ;) Perhaps he felt Boniface had been humiliated enough anyway; the eighty-year old man was sought out by two of his enemies, urged to abdicate and, according to legend, slapped in the face with an iron glove...

Quote from: Wikipedia
In 1303, Philip /the king of France/ and Nogaret were excommunicated. However, on 7 September 1303, an army led by Nogaret and Sciarra Colonna surprised Boniface at his retreat in Anagni. The King and the Colonnas demanded his resignation; Boniface VIII responded that he would "sooner die". In response, Colonna allegedly slapped Boniface, a "slap" historically remembered as the schiaffio di Anagni ("Anagni slap").

Boniface was beaten badly and nearly executed, but was released from captivity after three days. He died of kidney stones and humiliation on 11 October 1303. There were rumors he had died of suicide from "gnawing through his own arm" and bashing his skull into a wall.

They don't make 'em like they used to...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:17:00 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2013, 09:19:40 PM »
Dante condemned most of his personal enemies to hell.  I'm a little surprised that Boniface didn't make it (Schismatics or Simoniacs would be my guess).

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2013, 09:24:28 PM »
Dante condemned most of his personal enemies to hell.  I'm a little surprised that Boniface didn't make it (Schismatics or Simoniacs would be my guess).

Agree, but for some reason he kept off mentioning the very man who had sentenced him and his friends too (jn their absence, many of them), and who had become sort of the Joe McCarthy of the party that had taken over in Florence. You'd think that guy'd have been a prominent man in hell. Unless there was a reference to him that was edited out by copyists soon after Dante died (Inferno was published a few years before his death,  but the text tradition isn't failsafe in any way - this is the age of handwritten books)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:29:00 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2013, 10:12:47 PM »
Anyway, and back on topic from Dante's Hell, I don't think it's likely that the cardinals would settle for a 'very young man' in Vatican terms - a guy of fifty or so. The new man will be expected to stay in office until he dies and they wouldn't want to appoint someone who could likely sit for thirty years or more and outlast most of the present cardinals. They'll pick someone who is near seventy, I think.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
That's a question that crops up quite frequently: why aren't priests and nuns allowed to marry and have families, like certain Protestant faiths allow? The answer is this: because the Church doesn't want to relinquish its control over the priesthood. It's like the worst D/s relationship ever. I doubt this will change any time soon.
So what you're saying is the Papal regime akin to 50 Shades of Grey?

 >:)

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 10:42:35 PM »
So what you're saying is the Papal regime akin to 50 Shades of Grey?

 >:)

Telling you what to wear, who to talk to, what to say, how to behave, what and when to eat, with really boring chore sex when you're allowed to have sex at all?

Yeah. It's pretty much That Book.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 10:55:15 PM »
These are intelligent, but irrational people who support an irrational religion. You expect them to do something that makes sense, like allow priests to marry or jerk off regularly? Their actions say that they would prefer to have horny priests causing trouble as opposed to priests who have a healthy sexual outlet.  As for why, I'm sure their reason makes little sense, but is thoroughly rationalized.




Offline stormwyrm

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2013, 01:02:03 AM »
So now that Gloria Olivae has stepped down, who do you suppose shall be Petrus Romanus, the last Pope?

Offline Driskoll

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2013, 01:09:00 AM »
I don't know who they'll be, I'm just interested in seeing if St. Malachy was right or not. Call it a morbid interest in doomsday prophecies.

Offline Thesunmaid

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 04:39:59 AM »
I didn't know that the pope could retire...I mean the last one was twitching and drooling on himself and could barely stand up..but this one is leaving because of health problems?


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 10:56:49 AM »
I didn't know that the pope could retire...I mean the last one was twitching and drooling on himself and could barely stand up..but this one is leaving because of health problems?

I think he's trying to set a precedent and make it so that the pope remains a healthy representative of the church. He is putting the church ahed of his ego and tradition. I wish he'd unclench about other issues, but this is a start in my mind.  Of course whoever replaces him could go back to business as usual. Remember the last VOLUNTARY resignation was nearly 900 years ago. Celestine V. And his reward was to be locked up by his replacement. 

Offline Torch

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 12:16:31 PM »
I think he's trying to set a precedent and make it so that the pope remains a healthy representative of the church.

It's the internet age, and he knows this.

A hundred years ago, a pontiff could stay holed up in the Vatican for years in failing health and no one was the wiser. Not true today.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 01:23:26 PM »
It's the internet age, and he knows this.

A hundred years ago, a pontiff could stay holed up in the Vatican for years in failing health and no one was the wiser. Not true today.

In a lot of ways I think that John Paul's last few years might have weighted heavily in his thinking.

Offline Brittany

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2013, 09:50:32 AM »
I am not a religious person, and I raised a few eyebrows at the whole hitler youth thing with this pope, although his explanation that young men in germany had little choice makes sense to me.  In all honesty, I could not care about who the pope was or what he did.  Until he came to Britain.

While he was here, I was actually captivated by it.  So many people were out to greet him, and you could visibly see that he touched so many lives.  And this was just three days of his life.  It reminded me very much so of the Queen's visits.  Had little relevance to me or my life, but I appreciate that he brought hope, happiness, faith, and even just a smile to so many people.  It won me over to be quite honest.

I think he did a good job.  I'm surprised he would resign, but I can imagine that it would be very difficult on such an old man.  I personally wonder why Popes are so old when appointed.  I know you need life experience, but it seems like a very difficult job for men in their 90's.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2013, 10:04:51 AM »
As I understand it, there is a minimum age for the Pope, much like the President of the US.  Add to that the fact that the other appointments in the hierarchy work from the top down (Popes raise Cardinals from the Archbishops, etc.)  By the time one has reached the rank of Cardinal (and thus eligibility), there's a load of years gone by.  Then you have the fact that the Church itself is a fairly (many would say 'very') conservative organization.  Younger people are more likely to embrace change, which would make them less attractive to the 'Old Guard' of the College of Cardinals as papal candidates.  As a result, you have a tendency to have older Popes elected.

Offline Brittany

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2013, 02:29:26 PM »
As I understand it, there is a minimum age for the Pope, much like the President of the US.  Add to that the fact that the other appointments in the hierarchy work from the top down (Popes raise Cardinals from the Archbishops, etc.)  By the time one has reached the rank of Cardinal (and thus eligibility), there's a load of years gone by.  Then you have the fact that the Church itself is a fairly (many would say 'very') conservative organization.  Younger people are more likely to embrace change, which would make them less attractive to the 'Old Guard' of the College of Cardinals as papal candidates.  As a result, you have a tendency to have older Popes elected.

You got me curious so I looked it up! http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_an_age_requirement_for_the_pope

No, there is no age requirement. The only requirements are that the pope be male and Catholic. Should he not be ordained yet when elected pope, he will be ordained and then consecrated as a bishop. Usually, however, the pope is elected from the College of Cardinals, but that need not be the case.

To be a catholic priest you need to be 25 though.  I do agree with your attractive to the old guard assessment. 

I did notice some of the candidates appear to be younger.  Like I said, whilst completely non-religious, I very much enjoyed the pope's visit but I assume such work would be very stressful at his age!  Hopefully we get someone young enough to physically cope with the burden, but it would be strange to have a "young pope" :-)


Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2013, 02:32:58 PM »
Stephen Colbert could be pope, if that's what the College wanted to do.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2013, 02:45:40 PM »
Well, if you have to be 25 to be a priest, there's no way you're going to get a Pope that's under 25.  ;)  Since Pope Urban VI (who was still an Archbishop at the time of his election in 1389), every Pope has been elected from the ranks of the Cardinals. 

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2013, 03:40:43 PM »
It's alot like in the US House of Representatives and picking the Speaker.   There's no rule that says the Speaker of the House has to be a member of that body, but noone that isn't part of the majority party has ever been selected as Speaker in the history of the country.

Likewise, for over 600 years no Pope has been selected that wasn't a cardinal at the time.  There's no rule that says it has to be done, but the weight of tradition (and the Catholic Church is nothing if not a stickler for following tradition) makes it unlikely to change anytime soon.

Course, I'm just waiting for spaceflight to become cheap and then I'm moving to Mars. :D

Offline Brittany

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2013, 03:58:56 PM »
You all got me interested so I read up a lot.  From what I can see the only real requirements are to be catholic, male. and no older than 80.  You don't have to be a priest so there is no minimum age.  The ages of the previous popes have been between the age of 12-80.

However like you've said, unless they have a really really special person come along, the second coming of jesus or something, then what they actually choose from is a member of the college of cardinal's with an average age (in recent times) of 65 with view for a term of at least 10 years.

The exiting pope was a cardinal and was 78 when he became pope :)

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2013, 04:02:19 PM »
You all got me interested so I read up a lot.  From what I can see the only real requirements are to be catholic, male. and no older than 80.  You don't have to be a priest so there is no minimum age.  The ages of the previous popes have been between the age of 12-80.

Which one was 12? :o

Offline Brittany

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2013, 05:43:40 PM »
Which one was 12? :o

Ok so I may have jumped the gun but I was referring to Benedict IX in 1032 :)  The first pope to sell the palpacy, the first pope to be pope more than once, the first homosexual pope and the first pope to hold orgies o.O  Sounds fun!

Although the official Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907 states his uncles put him on the throne, not at 12, but of 14, then, 17 and again about 20.  There are plenty of rumors and an urban myth that he was 12 but I guess it's impossible to prove.  They also call him a "disgrace to the chair of Peter".  Guess he made a lasting impression!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX
12 year old pope brings up some interesting google searches!

You know, from a non religious point of view, reading about these popes is actually quite interesting.  I never realised it was all so seedy!!!  ;D  Maybe I will start watching the Borgia's!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 05:52:05 PM by Brittany »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2013, 06:11:50 PM »
Ok so I may have jumped the gun but I was referring to Benedict IX in 1032 :)  The first pope to sell the palpacy, the first pope to be pope more than once, the first homosexual pope and the first pope to hold orgies o.O  Sounds fun!

Although the official Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907 states his uncles put him on the throne, not at 12, but of 14, then, 17 and again about 20.  There are plenty of rumors and an urban myth that he was 12 but I guess it's impossible to prove.  They also call him a "disgrace to the chair of Peter".  Guess he made a lasting impression!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX
12 year old pope brings up some interesting google searches!

You know, from a non religious point of view, reading about these popes is actually quite interesting.  I never realised it was all so seedy!!!  ;D  Maybe I will start watching the Borgia's!

Whoa.. just.. wow.. the guy was.. deviant.. wow...

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2013, 06:18:00 PM »
The Borgias are a whole different level of seedy - Renaissance politics were quite often cut-throat in the literal sense.  ;D