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Author Topic: The Pope gives his resignation.  (Read 3012 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 12:25:41 PM »
I don't know. Aren't rabbis Judaistic priests (meaning, they are in charge of a temple, give spiritual guidance to the community etc.)? That would make them the equivalent of Catholic priests. Monks and nuns have different functions - they pray and follow their congregation's various vocations, i.e. charity work.

Obviously we're getting on to definitions a bit here.  But I'd argue that spiritual guidance, in particuar, isn't the main role of a Priest.  Returning again to Choir Monks with no pastoral duties.    That's one aspect of a Priest, sure, but not every priest does it.  Every Rabbi does though.  As I say, its largely where we're drawing lines but I do think Deacon is closer to Rabbi in the "community leader" sense.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2013, 12:27:43 PM »
By strict definition, Catholic priests are monks.

Nope, they are not. Both priests and monks are celibate, but that doesn't mean they are the same. Priests and monks have completely different function within the Church.

Regarding the reasons for why priests became celibate during the Middle Ages - you are right. But I feel you might be subscribing a bit too... sinister motivation to the Church in that matter ;)

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2013, 12:28:44 PM »
Priests and monks have completely different function within the Church.

This isn't true.  Monks can be priests (although they don't have to be - lay brothers aren't). 

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2013, 12:31:30 PM »
Obviously we're getting on to definitions a bit here.  But I'd argue that spiritual guidance, in particuar, isn't the main role of a Priest.

Really? It's Priests who give sermons, conduct masses, provide sacraments etc. Also, it's Priest who - after becoming bishops and archbishops - influence what the Church as a whole believe in.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2013, 12:33:22 PM »
Really? It's Priests who give sermons, conduct masses, provide sacraments etc. Also, it's Priest who - after becoming bishops and archbishops - influence what the Church as a whole believe in.

Yes, that's true.  But that second function isn't shared by Rabbis at all, obviously, as there's no governing body.  Sermons aren't exclusive to priests and while sure providing the sacraments is, I'm not sure I'd count that as "spiritual guidance"

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2013, 12:35:07 PM »
This isn't true.  Monks can be priests (although they don't have to be - lay brothers aren't).

I know. But it's a case of multiclassing  ;D

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 12:38:11 PM »
Yes, that's true.  But that second function isn't shared by Rabbis at all, obviously, as there's no governing body.  Sermons aren't exclusive to priests and while sure providing the sacraments is, I'm not sure I'd count that as "spiritual guidance"

We may need a definition of "spiritual guidance" here, then :)

And... sermons aren't exclusive to priests? Really? I've *never* seen a non-priest give a sermon during a mass.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 12:40:37 PM »
I suspect thats just fluke, tbh.  Prior to Vatican 2, Deacons were people in their final year of Seminary and one of their core functins was to provide the sermon.  It's called the Ministry of the Word.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 12:44:17 PM »
Anyone else looking over the lists and surprised by the lack of Italian/Europeans on it? Cardinal Marc Ouelette looks in a good spot given he has been in position to make some folks bishops for a while.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2013, 12:44:53 PM »
I suspect thats just fluke, tbh.  Prior to Vatican 2, Deacons were people in their final year of Seminary and one of their core functins was to provide the sermon.  It's called the Ministry of the Word.

It's possible, I won't argue that. Still, Deacons are Priests-in-the-making, so I think that what I said is still right :)

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2013, 12:47:51 PM »
It's possible, I won't argue that. Still, Deacons are Priests-in-the-making, so I think that what I said is still right :)

No, post Vatican 2 they can be anyone (anyone whos male, Catholic, etc...)  They can be married, as well.

Anyone else looking over the lists and surprised by the lack of Italian/Europeans on it? Cardinal Marc Ouelette looks in a good spot given he has been in position to make some folks bishops for a while.

Ratzinger's influence there, I suspect.  But yeah, its odd.  Been ages since we had an Italian and doens't look like its gonna change soon.  As I say, I think its a good thing, actually.  Catholicism is no longer a predominantly European religion and its time to expand.  Africa (assuming its Turkson) isn't much of an expansion obviously but its better than nothing.  Nice to see some Brazilians on the list as well, as I say, I'd sooner a Latin American.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2013, 12:48:51 PM »
monk: /məNGk/ Noun
A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

Catholic priests are monks by that definition. A monk leaving the monastery and removing himself from the physical presence of the community does not lose his monkhood. And seminary school qualifies as the community.

Also, you say I'm conflating celibacy and being unwedded. I argue that in Western Catholic teaching tradition, they are one and the same. If you are unwed, you are expected to abstain from sexual relations. If you are wed, you are to follow God's commandments and propagate the human race. I spent 13 years as a good little Catholic learning that.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 12:55:04 PM »
Quote from: Kythia
No, post Vatican 2 they can be anyone (anyone whos male, Catholic, etc...)  They can be married, as well.

Okay, you're right. Won't argue that.

monk: /məNGk/ Noun
A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

Catholic priests are monks by that definition. A monk leaving the monastery and removing himself from the physical presence of the community does not lose his monkhood. And seminary school qualifies as the community.

I wholeheartily disagree. Monk without a community isn't much of a monk. And seminary is not the same as a community of monks. It's a *school*.

Also, priests do not live under the vow of poverty. They *can* own things, while monks generally don't.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:42 PM »
monk: /məNGk/ Noun
A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

Catholic priests are monks by that definition. A monk leaving the monastery and removing himself from the physical presence of the community does not lose his monkhood. And seminary school qualifies as the community.

Priests don't make a vow of poverty.

Quote
Also, you say I'm conflating celibacy and being unwedded. I argue that in Western Catholic teaching tradition, they are one and the same. If you are unwed, you are expected to abstain from sexual relations. If you are wed, you are to follow God's commandments and propagate the human race. I spent 13 years as a good little Catholic learning that.

I take your point, and its a good one.  However, in the 800ish years between Priests being forced to be Celibate and Priests no longer being able to be married, that wasn't the case.  Though I agree, it is now. 

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2013, 01:10:38 PM »
Me? As an outsider who survived Irish Catholic school, I say marriage should be allowed again. Too many socially and mentally healthy would be priests have backed away from the orders because of this. The church needs to pull in the more suitable and healthy potential priests.

The last 3 decades have shown a growing disconnect with the faithful that is truly hurtling the church. Restablishing marriage to the priesthood would do a lot to counter it. It would bring in the sort of young priest that you want in your community.

I'm not sure if I'm saying it right. I see this in my head. You are willing to cover up scandal abuse and outright perversion but the establishment of any healthy social relationship is forbidden? You chase off men and women who build positive connections with others but tactily condone the worse parts of human behavior that run counter to your very doctrine?

That ain't healthy for any organization.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2013, 01:22:04 PM »

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2013, 01:26:52 PM »
Yes.  But because they're Jesuits, Carmelites or Dominicans, not because they're priests.  It's Order Rule not Canon Law

Offline Beorning

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2013, 01:27:06 PM »
Jesuits, Carmelites and Benedictines Dominicans do.

... because they are members of religious institutes, not because they are priests.

Offline Hades

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »
I'm assuming that since I can see these threads, that means I can also comment on them without incident.  If that's not the case, just let me know and I'll go back to my little cubby-hole and plot doom and death...and cake.

Someone asked earlier in this thread why they needed to elect a new pope in the first place.   Speaking as someone who was raised as a Protestant and is now an atheist, I freely admit that my knowledge of things Catholic-related is minimual at best.  But it's my understanding that the Pope draws his authority in the church by being the successor to Peter, the disciple Jesus said in reference to "this is the rock upon which I will build my church."  Couple that with the weight of tradition, and the papacy is a position that I doubt will ever disappear as long as there is a Mother Church.

My opinion is that the explination of being advanced in years is only partially true.  Maybe I've played too many RPGs that see conspiracies everywhere, but I can't help but wonder if perhaps he has been diagnosed with some terminal illness and this is a means of ensuring that he has the oppertunity to pick a successor that is more inclined to continue with his ideas rather than the cardinals going off on a wild tangent and selecting some "reformer" as the next pope.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »
Traditionally, the College of Cardinals makes the selection of Pope.  There's usually a 'short-list' of expected candidates, but it's 'bad form' to appear to be jockeying for the position.  Here's the general sequence of events:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_election#Modern_practice

I was particularly struck by the fact that historically, the new Pope has differed radically from his predecessor.  Benedict is quite different from the very personable John Paul II. 

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2013, 02:58:52 PM »
I'm assuming that since I can see these threads, that means I can also comment on them without incident.  If that's not the case, just let me know and I'll go back to my little cubby-hole and plot doom and death...and cake.

Absolutely it does.  Hiya Hades and I'll drop you a brief "Welcome to E" as well.

I think you could be kinda right and kinda wrong here.  He has the power to "promote" Cardinals so he could, given time, stuff the College with people who agreed with him and then it doesn't matter who's next.  I think though that some part of his thinking is that he's not guaranteed to last that long and would rather do it this way.

I'm not certain, to be perfectly honest, what formal say he'll have over the process.  Not even sure if he'll be allowed to vote in the conclave - just gonna start googling for that now.  But I think he'll certainly have a fairly informal one, at the very least.

Offline Hades

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Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2013, 03:06:21 PM »
Absolutely it does.  Hiya Hades and I'll drop you a brief "Welcome to E" as well.

I think you could be kinda right and kinda wrong here.  He has the power to "promote" Cardinals so he could, given time, stuff the College with people who agreed with him and then it doesn't matter who's next.  I think though that some part of his thinking is that he's not guaranteed to last that long and would rather do it this way.

I'm not certain, to be perfectly honest, what formal say he'll have over the process.  Not even sure if he'll be allowed to vote in the conclave - just gonna start googling for that now.  But I think he'll certainly have a fairly informal one, at the very least.

I doubt that he has any formal say in the process of electing the next pope.  But that's not to say that the current college of Cardinals would turn a deaf ear to the man that was once the pope and once was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before being elected pope.   For those who don't know, or don't have access to Wikipedia (all hail the great oracle of our age!), the Congregation is the name adopted by the Inquisition in 1904, though it was called the Supreme Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but the Supreme and Sacred parts were widdled away over the years until 1984 when the current name stuck.


Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2013, 04:54:55 PM »
I didn't know Popes could quit.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2013, 05:27:27 PM »
I didn't know Popes could quit.

As can be seen by the stuff posted.. most dont.. most are there till they die (or killed)


Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: The Pope gives his resignation.
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2013, 06:33:36 PM »

Uuhh... Isn't the whole pope thing supposed to be a divine calling? Isn't he supposed to believe and trust in his god's divine plan? Is giving up then, as sinful as a man divorcing his wife ( whom god joined and thus cannot be separated ) ?

Perhaps the rules only apply to the lemming followers but not to those who run the cult.