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Author Topic: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians  (Read 2956 times)

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Offline MissMoonchildTopic starter

A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« on: February 07, 2013, 06:53:00 AM »
Before I even get to the question let me tell you a bit about myself.

I am a bisexual, married, mother and I as having a conversation with a very good friend of mine who is going through the process of gender reassignment. We will simply refer to her as Amanda as that is her new name. There's very little that we keep from each other and no topic is taboo. While talking about Amanda's journey a question came up from her that I simply wasn't able to answer.

The question is, how would gay men feel about hooking up with a man who was born a biological woman, and how would lesbians feel about hooking up with a woman who was born a biological man?

I personally wouldn't be thrown by it, per se, but I feel like there are two good reasons my feelings don't really answer Amanda's question. First, I'm bisexual and have been with both men and women. Second, I've never really ever considered it or been in that situation.

I figured I'd take my question here to Elliquiy because it's the most diverse crowd of people that I feel I could pose this question to. I'm very curious to see what people have to say, and yes, I did plan on discussing the answers I get with Amanda.

So, tell me, how would you feel?

Offline MissMoonchildTopic starter

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 08:24:21 AM »
It was pointed out to me that I should mention....Any opinions that I share with Amanda I'm obviously not going to identify the people who gave those opinions. I completely understand that it's a sensitive subject and just like I respect her privacy I would respect yours.

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 11:53:53 AM »
This is a generalized question that doesn't have an answer because the reactions will be individualized.

I suppose I'm not your target demographic because I'm bi rather than gay or les, but I have personally had more than one crush on someone who is trans or intersex. While I identify as bi, I suppose I actually count as 'pansexual' in the hip new lingo because what I care about is the person's mind. If I am attracted to them mentally, attraction to their body will follow. So it doesn't matter if they are male, female, trans, intersex, crossgender, or a particularly well-dressed lemon.

However, there will be gay people who care and who don't care. There will be les people who care and don't care. Just as there are straight and bi people who care and who don't care. You can't really translate that into a "All gays shun FTM transgender partners", etc. I don't think you'll get one if you're looking for an absolute. >.>

Offline MissMoonchildTopic starter

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »
Not really looking for a universal answer. I appreciate that answers are going to be individual opinions but I'm just curious what sort of consensus (if any) would come of the diverse crowd here.

I think you and I are in similar boats as far as our opinions go.

Offline Silk

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 07:43:24 PM »
I think you might have some more luck with this question in the LGBT section :)

Offline Rhapsody

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 08:47:35 PM »
I suppose I'm not exactly your target demographic either. I try to avoid labels: even though I'm a married woman with children by a male spouse, I find women attractive, and have slept with them in the past. Most people call that "bisexual". I call it "flexible". For me, it's more about the person, not the gender. What parts happen to be between their legs is incidental to the attraction of their personalities and character. That would go for transgendered folk as well, in my books.

Offline Dashenka

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 05:02:07 PM »
I am a lesbian but only because I happen to be in love and in a relationship with a girl. Had she been a he, I'd have been straight.

With that I think I have answered your question :)

I do not fall in love with a gender but with a person. So if that person was born a man or woman and is now the opposite sex, I don't care. As long as he or she is happy and we love each other I don't see any problems.

What I do want to say though and I'm not sure if this is relevant to your or Amanda's situation... do not change yourself for somebody else to like you. If a man 'changes' into a woman for a woman because the woman is said to be a lesbian, you have a very wrong base for a relationship. True love doesn't discriminate. If Amanda wants to gender change because the other person is gay, he will not love her even when she is a man (or vice versa).

Does that make sense?

Offline Serephino

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 09:00:06 PM »
I will also say that it's what's on the inside that counts.  If I liked someone that was a post-op trans it wouldn't bother me at all as long as I wasn't lied to about it.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2013, 07:28:36 AM »
It's an interesting question, and I'm not really in a position to answer it. I believe Trieste is right though. Despite our habit of being lumped together, I find that gay people's views on transfolk are not really that different from straight people's *shrugs*

Offline MissMoonchildTopic starter

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 03:33:24 PM »
Dashenka, I absolutely get what you're saying. Luckily neither myself nor Amanda are trying to be anything other than who and what we were born to be.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

Serephino, let me pose this question to you then. What if they were pre-op?


Offline Tiberius

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2013, 07:46:54 PM »
Would take a really solid foundation for them to not freak out that their partner just changed sex. Saw a story one time about a married couple and the man was transexual and then had the op while married to a woman. And turned into a woman, and they're still married. The wife said she didn't care, she wanted her husband to be happy. But it is a pretty rare case, most people would freak out if their partner suddenly decided to have the operation. Or was considering it and didn't discuss it, which I find is more common then usual.

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 08:15:54 PM »
I think that probably that statement should be an "I" statement rather than a general one, given the number of people who just posted before you that they are attracted to the person, not the plumbing.

Offline Serephino

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 08:16:35 PM »
Dashenka, I absolutely get what you're saying. Luckily neither myself nor Amanda are trying to be anything other than who and what we were born to be.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

Serephino, let me pose this question to you then. What if they were pre-op?

Pre-op wouldn't matter to me either.  I would just want the person to be honest with me.  I mean, I wouldn't expect said person to spill their guts on the first date, but that's something I'd want to know if things started getting serious.

Online Thesunmaid

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2013, 06:10:11 AM »
I have dated a preop transexual. We broke up because they moved away for schooling and I still love her dearly and we still email. Honestly to me your plumbing is not that important. Its the person. I just happen to be married in a heterosexual relationship but I would love him just as much if he had been born a woman.

(side note my hubby has long gourgous hair some women would kill for ahem yes but moving along)

To me I think love is love...people who are hung up on what their bodies used to look like so long as your in love should not matter.You love the person your with so that involves accepting them as they are now. You don't have to love their past but keep in mind their past made them into the person you love today.

Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 11:13:27 PM »
Before I even get to the question let me tell you a bit about myself.

I am a bisexual, married, mother and I as having a conversation with a very good friend of mine who is going through the process of gender reassignment. We will simply refer to her as Amanda as that is her new name. There's very little that we keep from each other and no topic is taboo. While talking about Amanda's journey a question came up from her that I simply wasn't able to answer.

The question is, how would gay men feel about hooking up with a man who was born a biological woman, and how would lesbians feel about hooking up with a woman who was born a biological man?

I personally wouldn't be thrown by it, per se, but I feel like there are two good reasons my feelings don't really answer Amanda's question. First, I'm bisexual and have been with both men and women. Second, I've never really ever considered it or been in that situation.

I figured I'd take my question here to Elliquiy because it's the most diverse crowd of people that I feel I could pose this question to. I'm very curious to see what people have to say, and yes, I did plan on discussing the answers I get with Amanda.

So, tell me, how would you feel?

As I am attracted to the male form, and the penis, I would need both of those things to function properly in a sexual relationship. If in this hypothetical, we had the bits needed for a fully functional relationship (for those of us that do require sex to be a part of the relationship) then no, I would have no issue. Ended up on a date with a guy who was like that, just missing the lower bits, shame too, cute...nice, nice ass too, fantastic kisser. ::)

But he liked being inbetween sexes like that, where he said he felt more at home, and hey, whatever makes him happy. We stayed good friends, he's living on the West Coast, doing his own thing, but we keep in occasional contact, met himself a nice, if interesting girl last I heard.

;D

Offline Torch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 06:06:15 AM »
As I am attracted to the male form, and the penis, I would need both of those things to function properly in a sexual relationship. If in this hypothetical, we had the bits needed for a fully functional relationship (for those of us that do require sex to be a part of the relationship) then no, I would have no issue.

This.

As much as I am attracted to the person inside, the penis is a dealbreaker for me.




Offline Haru329

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 09:02:26 PM »
Just hooking up? No. A relationship? I'd still say no, but I guess I couldn't say that it would be entirely impossible for this answer to change, if the situation actually arose, or once I've matured more. I have nothing against transpeople, but I do find sex to be a pretty important aspect of a relationship, and I like dick too much, enough to where I don't think I'd be so willing to settle for anything less than the real thing.

Offline Haloriel

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 10:35:01 PM »
Interesting question.  Like Trieste - I would likewise call myself pansexual - though for my teens and my adult life bisexual was the - word of the day - so to speak.

I am married and in a semi-open relationship with careful limits - so if I were to step out of the box? 

If I was single and looking - it would not matter.  I adore each person that ... attracts me almost ninety percent for their mind and how lovely it is, how intelligent they are and how much I can learn from them about myself and others.

While it is true I have ... a list of specific qualities physically that make me pause and wish I had the genetics to arch only one brow (I do not), I support the idea that people should do within reason what makes them happy.

The important concept is honesty.  It would make me very sad, for example, if said person was not open with me regarding their birth status and there were deeper feelings involved especially. 

After all - a relationship lasts due to the above and constant communication, in my experience. 

Of course - I count myself rather lucky!  Rambling aside, I hope that my contribution was a help to you, MissMoonchild.

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2013, 08:21:00 AM »
I'm not gay or lesbian but this question could be applied to anyone. 

I am heterosexual.  This means I like men.  I see the value in female erotica but that is as far as I'm ever going to venture.  I get the "love the person not the gender" but feel you have to be inherently bisexual to do this.  I love 8 women in my life but I have no desire to sleep with or marry them because essentially my sexual responses, desires to have children and a want to stay with this person forever only kick in when men are involved.  As a person, i identify and generally like other women way more than I do men, and all my friends are ladies.  But deep down my desires are to be with and mate with a man.  I could force myself to marry my best friend, and we'd get on like a house on fire, but we wouldn't ever "click" in the bedroom because we are two straight girls, and thats OK.

Could I see myself dating someone who was born a woman?  I don't think I could personally.  My attraction to men is natural, and while I fully respect and try to treat transgenders in the way they wish to be treated, this is a learned response from me.  My natural instincts still tend to recognise someones original gender and my natural feelings and guarding mechanisms react the way they would if this person were their original gender.   It's very difficult to explain, my heart just wouldn't (or hasn't) fluttered around such a person. 

If I were a lesbian?  I would probably feel the same way.  I would be attracted to women for a reason and would want to date a woman, probably a girlie girl with funny childhood stories and the biggest pair of natural boobs I could bury my face in if I'm being quite honest.  I simply find natural figures more attractive than surgery aided ones.   While I can recognise that a transgender feels like and desires to be a woman, it still wouldn't be what I would be looking for in such a relationship.

It's not just physical either, mentally I react different when I'm speaking to a male or a female, and for the most part transgenders get the same natural response from me as someone of their original sex.  I would have to watch not to accidentally call a transgender customer "sir" for example.  I know it's not nice and not what they want, and I'd be mortified if I actually said it, but it's hard wiring in my brain that is very hard, and maybe impossible without cognitive therapy, to undo. 

The other thing, is it is quite rare to meet a transgender that hasn't had a lot of issues in life and doesn't have a lot of depth to their character.  This isn't everyone's cup of tea.  I have to say, for me personally, I want my partner to be interesting, but I don't want too much baggage.  I'd be as inclined to stay away from as transgender as much as I would a man three times divorced, or someone with kids, or someone who was abused all their life.  Because my life is generally not very complex, and I don't feel I match well with these types of people, or can offer much support and understanding and again this is OK.

To apply this question only to homosexuals seems to imply that they are more likely to be tolerant of a transgender, more likely to recognise a transgender as the sex they (the homosexual) are interested in, more likely to put up with any confusion and baggage that relationship brings, and more likely to in some cases settle for a partner that doesn't fully identify with the gender they represent (in terms of operations and genitalia).  There is much more tolerance of transgenders in the homosexual community in the main.  But I've also seen some homosexuals resent the T part of the BGLT tag and be quite nasty about them being associated with the gay movement.  When it comes down to it, a lot of homosexuals would have as little interest in dating a TG as I would.  And I'm sure there are plenty of heterosexuals who would if the right person came along.  There is no right or wrong answer, it comes down to the individual.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:01:23 AM by Brittany »

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2013, 11:00:55 AM »
I can understand having particularly strong feelings about the penis, vagina, and breasts. It makes sense to me that the presence or absence of those various elements influences physical attraction among hetero and homosexuals. But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2013, 11:20:18 AM »
I can understand having particularly strong feelings about the penis, vagina, and breasts. It makes sense to me that the presence or absence of those various elements influences physical attraction among hetero and homosexuals. But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

I have never quite looked at it as 'they feel/want to be [insert gender]' sometimes it comes across as such in my words. I have a habit of saying things that belie what I actually believe, and it requires someone to point it out for me to notice it adjust it. In my view, you are what you are, they are whatever they are, just as with people who fit the gender binary extremes either way. I have my likes and my dislikes that can sometimes blur the line and yet things that do not brook any opposition. Some of my likes and dislikes have been criticized, which can be bewildering to me at times, I cannot help that I do not like overly effeminate men, nor do I like the traditional 'twink' type for the most part. I hold no negative feelings for people whom are like that, but I am not attracted to them sexually, which to me is an important (not the most important, but vital) part of a relationship.

Hope I'm making sense  :-\

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2013, 11:53:11 AM »
But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:05:50 PM by Brittany »

Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »
I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours.

I don't think Dark was questioning your right to have an opinion, only stating a discomfort at a particular idea/belief that some people hold. If it was aimed at your belief, well I can understand why that can be upsetting she wasn't saying you shouldn't feel that way.

And when you say most people on here take that position, do you mean that people on E take the position of the whole 'fake boobs and estrogen' thing?

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2013, 01:07:50 PM »
And when you say most people on here take that position, do you mean that people on E take the position of the whole 'fake boobs and estrogen' thing?

My experience in this section of the forums the last particular evenings, on topics such as feminism and transgenders leads me to believe a lot of people on E appear to believe the only real difference between males and females is whether they have a penis or not and that there is no difference between a born woman with natural breasts, and a born man with fake breasts.  That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members.  It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice.  That attitude in itself is intolerant of my views, and the views of people that agree with me (which several appear to in private messages, but none feel they dare speak out on in this section of the site, which speaks volumes to me).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:10:11 PM by Brittany »

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2013, 01:11:35 PM »
I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

In my experience, it can be very difficult to think of a trans individual as other than their birth gender if you don't have a lot of experience with them. It seems like there is this mental inclination to go all Austin Powers, "That's a MAN, baby!" on someone if they are presenting as a woman but you can pick up cues that they are men. I don't know if this is a socialized thing, or some biological wiring that makes a person inclined to try to categorize others as 'someone I would be able to reproduce with if needed'. I do know that my personal feelings of dissonance tend to fade away the more I get to know the individual. That is my experience.

It has also been my experience that trans individuals are aware of this adjustment period, although the reaction to it is anywhere from "Eh, as long as they get there eventually" to "this is awkward and I don't like having to go through it".

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours.

Naturalism is an extremely difficult position to defend, in part because it usually assumes "natural = better". A transwoman or a transman is not a 'fake' woman or man... but, like everyone else, they may use props. Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estrogen, and very few people understand that better than a transwoman. She is a woman, without the estrogen and without the boobs. She has the mind and heart and soul of a woman, and the fake boobs and estrogen are more about bringing her body into line with what she is - because what she is isn't what she looks like. It is, in my opinion, the ultimate celebration that women are more than their bodies.