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Author Topic: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians  (Read 2954 times)

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Offline Star Safyre

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »
So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?   

Also if fake boobs or use of estrogen make someone not a "real" woman, I know plenty of ladies with two XX chromosomes who need those because of cancer treatments who will argue against you.

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 01:24:09 PM »
In my experience, it can be very difficult to think of a trans individual as other than their birth gender if you don't have a lot of experience with them. It seems like there is this mental inclination to go all Austin Powers, "That's a MAN, baby!" on someone if they are presenting as a woman but you can pick up cues that they are men. I don't know if this is a socialized thing, or some biological wiring that makes a person inclined to try to categorize others as 'someone I would be able to reproduce with if needed'. I do know that my personal feelings of dissonance tend to fade away the more I get to know the individual. That is my experience.

It has also been my experience that trans individuals are aware of this adjustment period, although the reaction to it is anywhere from "Eh, as long as they get there eventually" to "this is awkward and I don't like having to go through it".

Not always.  A lot of the time they are very very politically minded and alert to prejudices that society isn't even aware of.  Take for example, I was watching one of those trashy Pawn store shows.

A female cashier is serving, and a transgender comes in.  I don't know at what stage this person was, but they were an African American, about 6 foot 3 inches tall, big muscular arms and spoke in a booming voice.  They looked like a male basketball player in a dress.

The cashier treated the person very politely, cashed through the items, then the customers card declined.  They became heated, and the customer started to shout, and generally act very masculine. 

The cashier then uttered the word "sir" in an apology, purely accidental and all hell broke loose and the customer threatened to slap her (which is different than your regular woman slapping another woman, this customer was twice her size).  Now, I'm sorry but in my opinion, if you are masculine, you argue like a man would argue, you give off the aura of a man, then you need to accept that the way people's subconcious works, perception will often rule the way they act towards you or the words they use.  This customer went on and on about the money they have spent, but for all intents and purposes, they looked and acted as you would expect a male to act and look.  His reaction was not as you described but more "how dare she, i'm taking this to the highest court in the land" and in all honesty, I find that to be as typical as the reactions you have quoted.

I can't condemn that cashier, because I would have made the exact same mistake.  Like her, I would have apologised afterwards, and I would have felt bad about it.  But people need to accept that just because they feel they were born incorrectly, they are putting people in uncomfortable situations when something like this occurs.  The best thing the customer could have done was accept her apology and move on, leaving it an embarrassing incident for the both of them.

So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?   

Not every view that disagrees with yours is intolerant or prejudgemental.  You feel it is wrong I don't feel the way you feel about a particular subject.  Yet for every reason you can give for how you feel the way you do, I can give a reason.  You may feel it is prejudgemental for me not to want to share a locker room with a transgender female.  Yet as above, not all transgender females act like women.  Your view is not open, someone like Trieste clearly disagrees with me but keeps an open mind and understands all the different viewpoints.  Your comments are as closed and as one sided as you believe mine to be.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:29:45 PM by Brittany »

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 01:29:37 PM »
Putting aside the oddity of the phrase "argue like a man"... *slow blink*

There are ignorant individuals in every single social group - I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as the ignorant individuals in my social group so I will not do the same to others. That particular individual is not representative of a trans person and I'm not really inclined at the moment to talk about exceptions.

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »
Putting aside the oddity of the phrase "argue like a man"... *slow blink*

There are ignorant individuals in every single social group - I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as the ignorant individuals in my social group so I will not do the same to others. That particular individual is not representative of a trans person and I'm not really inclined at the moment to talk about exceptions.

My words don't come across right.  What I meant was this trans person was physically intimidating.  The cashier was a small woman.  She was being leaned over, snarled at and insulted in a way most women are not capable of, because most women are not 6'3 and built like a truck and with such a loud deep voice.  Even if a woman said the same thing with the same attitude, it's not as dangerous a situation as this cashier found herself in for uttering the wrong word.  And to me if the customer had hit her, it would have been like a man hitting a woman.  In the same way boxers are forbid from hitting another man.  This customer believed "i'm a girl, she's a girl, i'mma gonna slap this bitch".  The results would have been the same as if a male bodybuilder punched me in the face and this customer needs to not be able to do that.

I believe every trans person is representative, as I am representative of all women.  You form your opinions on the people that you meet.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:34:36 PM by Brittany »

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Back on topic, I actually am very curious about this.

I've two trans* friends who are homosexual, a transman and a transwoman.  My lesbian friend has had problems being accepted by potential dates.  It's devastating to her because she wants very much to be loved (who doesn't).  She has started hormonal therapy, but she doesn't have the means currently to have surgery.  Recently a woman she was interested in discovered that she doesn't have breasts and laughed in her face.  It just crushed her emotionally.  As for my gay friend, I don't know if he's had troubles.  He's fully equipped and has a boyfriend now, but I wouldn't doubt he had a bump or two on the road to being accepted.

Being bisexual myself, I don't take issue with anyone's trans* status if I were to be romantically interested.  Being attractive means more to me than someone's plumbing, but of course I can only speak for myself.

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2013, 01:38:06 PM »
I understand what you mean, but it is built on a basis that is factually wrong.

I believe every trans person is representative, as I am representative of all women.  You form your opinions on the people that you meet.

On the people you meet.

People.

If you were representative of all women - or if any one person was representative of their entire set of demographics - clinical trials would be a hell of a lot smaller and less expensive. Unfortunately for researchers (or perhaps fortunately), one person is not a representative sample. In fact, the very definition of "representative" includes the fact that it is a subset of a population, not an individual.

I anticipate that you will probably try to justify what you are saying by once more falling back on "it is my right to have an opinion", and I agree with you. However, I will also point out that what you are dealing with in this particular case is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact.

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2013, 01:45:30 PM »
I understand what you mean, but it is built on a basis that is factually wrong.

On the people you meet.

People.

If you were representative of all women - or if any one person was representative of their entire set of demographics - clinical trials would be a hell of a lot smaller and less expensive. Unfortunately for researchers (or perhaps fortunately), one person is not a representative sample. In fact, the very definition of "representative" includes the fact that it is a subset of a population, not an individual.

I anticipate that you will probably try to justify what you are saying by once more falling back on "it is my right to have an opinion", and I agree with you. However, I will also point out that what you are dealing with in this particular case is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact.

You are completely right.  However, what I described, I genuinely do not believe is one particular person.  When more and more people of a particular group demonstrate the same behavior (like preach open mindedness, while being smallminded), you then get a representative. 

Do you believe the person I described is the only large transgender female to use their physically imposing frame to intimidate and bully?  Do you believe the person I described is the only person who feels that accidentally referring to them as their biological gender should be punishable by law?  These are all hypothetical.  I will say, your initial comments were based on transgenders feeling uncomfortable, or feeling slightly annoyed.  I imagine this is the perspective you get from actively socialising with such.  My initial comments were based on transgenders displaying exhibitionism and acting morally superior.  This is the perspective I have gotten from where I have been and what I have seen.  You cannot say the nicer ones are more representative of the group than the others.

Anyway, I really respect your opinions and I love the way you post, but we are going off topic, and I'm starting to think I'm going to retreat from these political forums, because there is way too much sensitivity and one sided commentary going on.  Take care Trieste x

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2013, 01:50:26 PM »
Anyway, I really respect your opinions and I love the way you post, but we are going off topic, and I'm starting to think I'm going to retreat from these political forums, because there is way too much sensitivity and one sided commentary going on.  Take care Trieste x

Disagreeing with your opinion does not constitute 'one sided commentary'.  You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else here, but if you post in these forums, you can also expect those opinions to be questioned, countered and discussed. 

If you are not comfortable with such, posting in the P&R boards probably isn't the best thing. 

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2013, 01:55:29 PM »
Disagreeing with your opinion does not constitute 'one sided commentary'.  You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else here, but if you post in these forums, you can also expect those opinions to be questioned, countered and discussed. 

If you are not comfortable with such, posting in the P&R boards probably isn't the best thing.

My experience is that I post something with well reasoned points and arguments.  Someone labels me intolerant or posts a picture of a LOLcat.  They don't argue, they don't counter, they just dismiss my posts straight off and resort to insults (trieste being the exception).  The moderators do nothing about this which seems to encourage it remaining one sided. 

People have taken the time to write private messages to me saying "i wish i could come out and say that but I don't dare".  The fact that 6 people have wrote to me, agreeing with my ideals and opinions, but refuse to speak up and leave me to be persecuted and labelled with names, to me shows that the people here don't really want their thoughts and ideals challenged.  They are happy to believe that they are righteous and everyone is ignorant and everyone who disagrees is scared off of posting.  As such, I agree, I'll go post elsewhere. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:57:22 PM by Brittany »

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2013, 02:04:56 PM »
My experience is that I post something with well reasoned points and arguments.  Someone labels me intolerant or posts a picture of a LOLcat.  They don't argue, they don't counter, they just dismiss my posts straight off and resort to insults (trieste being the exception).  The moderators do nothing about this which seems to encourage it remaining one sided. 

People have taken the time to write private messages to me saying "i wish i could come out and say that but I don't dare".  The fact that 6 people have wrote to me, agreeing with my ideals and opinions, but refuse to speak up and leave me to be persecuted and labelled with names, to me shows that the people here don't really want their thoughts and ideals challenged.  They are happy to believe that they are righteous and everyone is ignorant and everyone who disagrees is scared off of posting.  As such, I agree, I'll go post elsewhere.

Having well reasoned points and arguments is one thing.  Being able to back those up with facts is another thing.  If you are asked to cite an information source, or asked a direct question as to the validity of your argument and are unable to provide such, people will also have the right to rebuke your argument. 

That does not mean they think themselves righteous and everyone else ignorant.  You complain that you are being insulted, but by painting everyone in these boards with such a broad and generalized brush, are you not doing the same? 

If you do not wish to post in these boards that's fine, but you also need to leave the 'parting shots' out of your posts. 

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2013, 02:18:37 PM »
Having well reasoned points and arguments is one thing.  Being able to back those up with facts is another thing.  If you are asked to cite an information source, or asked a direct question as to the validity of your argument and are unable to provide such, people will also have the right to rebuke your argument. 

That in the main isn't what is happening.

Take for example. 

Quote
But women have suffered sexism for thousands of years.  Saying "ok we'll treat you fairly from now on" doesn't quite cut it in my opinion.  Am I sexist?  Perhaps.  But it's not irrational sexism designed to hold men down for no other reason than to exert my power or because I'm scared of what will happen if they have too much influence.  It's a dislike of the gender which has insulted and held me back all my life.

No-one asked me to provide sources or back up my argument.  Instead I was replied to with



Again, take this :
Quote
My experience in this section of the forums the last particular evenings, on topics such as feminism and transgenders leads me to believe a lot of people on E appear to believe the only real difference between males and females is whether they have a penis or not and that there is no difference between a born woman with natural breasts, and a born man with fake breasts.  That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members.  It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

being replied to with
Quote
So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?
  Which summed up simply is "your opinion is intolerant and I do not need to respect it, reply to it, argue with it or whatever.  You are wrong and I am right.

I'm sorry but if you cannot see that there is a bullying culture in these threads, with the majority of posters being as a hive mind and jumping on anyone who dares to think differently, with backing from moderators, then I feel your eyes are closed towards it.  The very fact I have six private messages from people claiming they do not dare to post in such comments, and various posts in other parts of the forum suggest people believe the same thing, is evidence of the fact.  Anyway, I apologize for any offense, my intention was to debate, but this is a very one sided and hyper sensitive area of the forums.  I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:23:36 PM by Brittany »

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2013, 02:30:20 PM »
I don't wish to attack others, but it seems my words have been taken as an insult.  Your statements have been consistently sexist against males and transphobic.  You then ask to have these hateful and disrespectful opinions go unchallenged, uncommented upon, or rewarded.  I did not mean to insult you personally; I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your desires.  There are no wrong or right opinions; they're opinions and by their nature subjective.  Your anti-male and anti-trans opinions contradict your supposed desire for a equality among the genders.  Stating that one gender is more deserving than others is sexist and stating that genders are rigidly tied to biology is intolerant.  Demanding that others respect your intolerance and sexism is ironic to say the least.  That was what I meant by the quote you cite of mine.

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2013, 02:30:43 PM »
 
I'm sorry but if you cannot see that there is a bullying culture in these threads, with the majority of posters being as a hive mind and jumping on anyone who dares to think differently, with backing from moderators, then I feel your eyes are closed towards it.  The very fact I have six private messages from people claiming they do not dare to post in such comments, and various posts in other parts of the forum suggest people believe the same thing, is evidence of the fact.  Anyway, I apologize for any offense, my intention was to debate, but this is a very one sided and hyper sensitive area of the forums.  I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.

Again, this is not something that I wish to argue with you about.  If those six other people feel slighted, then they need to bring that to staff's attention.  You are once again trying to get in a parting shot at other members of this forum, and that won't be tolerated.  If you have anything else to say, you may take it to PM, not continue to insult E's membership by painting them with a broad brush. 

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2013, 02:32:48 PM »
I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.

Sorry we don't only talk about straight cisgender people.  If you want to only role-play here, go role-play. 

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2013, 02:42:06 PM »
Sorry we don't only talk about straight cisgender people.  If you want to only role-play here, go role-play.

Do you mean, sorry we don't tolerate straight cisgender people? 

You disregard the rest of the post and assume "ignorant" because I am straight.  You are showing as much ignorance and intolerance to anyone who disagrees with your views as you allege I am.  And you are being allowed to get away with it, while I am being chastised.

How are my "parting shots" any worse than the ones I'm receiving?  Because you agree with them and not me?  Proves my point really.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:52:54 PM by Brittany »

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2013, 02:45:16 PM »
Um... I'm cisgendered.  Until a couple years ago, I identified as straight.  I don't assume straight people are ignorant.  Some of my best friends are straight. 

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2013, 02:50:21 PM »
Some of my best friends are straight.

This made me laugh! I don't know if you were purposefully riffing off the "I have no problem with gays, some of my best friends are gays" or not but that's what I thought of and it struck me as very funny. ::)

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2013, 02:56:25 PM »
Okay....ONCE AGAIN.....I'm locking this for a bit. 

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2013, 02:57:48 PM »
This conversation and the way it's going reminds me of something I read about the sixties.

Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2013, 08:15:12 PM »
That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members. 

4 times makes a majority? Out of over a couple thousand active users?

Quote
It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

True, the beliefs of people in the mainstream are fairly limiting and restricting and yet that is exactly why you have people who run around and try to inform other people. It's rather unfair to slam other people for not understanding sex/gender in more complex terms than the simplistic ones we're all basically raised on. That takes time, and effort on the part of people who are willing to teach.

Quote
Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice.  That attitude in itself is intolerant of my views, and the views of people that agree with me (which several appear to in private messages, but none feel they dare speak out on in this section of the site, which speaks volumes to me).

First, that initial bit is another sweeping generalization.

Second, you said 'you' in reply to my statement (I'm not even talking about the rest of the posts that followed since my post) and I'm really really going to need you to specify where I've shown intolerance and prejudice, unless you meant liberals again in which you'll need to try to specify that as the meaning was unclear.

Offline Brittany

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2013, 09:38:29 AM »
The beliefs of people in the mainstream are fairly limiting and restricting.  and yet that is exactly why you have people who run around and try to inform other people. That takes time, and effort on the part of people who are willing to teach.

Second, you said 'you' in reply to my statement (I'm not even talking about the rest of the posts that followed since my post) and I'm really really going to need you to specify where I've shown intolerance and prejudice, unless you meant liberals again in which you'll need to try to specify that as the meaning was unclear.

See, this denigrates my opinion.  It is in your viewpoint wrong, of lesser value than you and needs teaching.

You refuse to see the angle, that perhaps my viewpoint, and mainstreams viewpoint is correct. 

For instance, I can name 100,000 ways in which women are different from men.  In my view, it is the "I can take a female perspective, the only difference between us is I have a penis, and my voice is just as important in a feminist movement as a females" view that is limited and needs teaching. 

Who are you to say I am wrong and you are right.  The fact that you win by a landslide in terms of support and back up on this particular battleground, doesn't make you right and me wrong.  If we took this debate to a forum with verified female members who didn't bring any topic around to lingerie (and not even mention godets, buckles and ruffles?), and fill up threads about breasts without ever touching on the weight or practicality of them, or needed to ask questions about a period that can be found on a box of tampons, the basic things women talk about all over the internet except strangely here where they don't have to prove they are female, I think my view wouldn't be in such the minority, where sexism and feminism is concerned.  The simple fact is that men have different perspectives, and it's quite clear this site is far more heavily male dominated than it advertises itself to be.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:42:45 AM by Brittany »

Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2013, 12:41:37 PM »
Kinda glad I don't have to respond to that, that was by far one of the more insulting and condescending posts aimed at me.

So...where were we before she...err...derailed it?

Offline Shjade

Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2013, 12:53:25 PM »
*walks into thread*

*sees clusterfuck in progress*

...

I've completely forgotten what I was going to add. So, instead, I'll just offer a minor point of clarification on that last exchange with Brittany - don't worry, not for purposes of continuing that line of argumentation.

Braioch, the "you" in the post of hers you quoted was referring to herself. "Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice." She's the one approaching the "liberal" perspective with a different view and is then being told she's showing intolerance and prejudice. She wasn't accusing you of these things; she was saying everyone else was accusing her of them. And, to an extent, she's right. Whether or not that should be happening is a different discussion, however. Complicated issue.

Offline Trieste

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2013, 12:55:11 PM »
"You disagree with me therefore you must be lying" whaaaaaat...


Offline Braioch

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Re: A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2013, 12:57:30 PM »
...the girl really needed to clarify that a wee bit.

And in any case, I wouldn't say that it's Liberals I would accuse of that, just her. Then again considering the fact I regard myself as liberal might have something to do with that.

And also, Trie, have I ever told you how much I love your sassy, zero bullshit tolerance?