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Author Topic: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia  (Read 4053 times)

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Offline IniquitousTopic starter

WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« on: February 15, 2012, 10:29:41 PM »
Virginia House Passes Personhood Bill

.... ughs. I am supremely happy that I do not live in Virginia and I sincerely hope that the state senate shuts this down. This is disturbing as hell - and on top of this one, they passed a law now that any woman wanting an abortion HAS to have a transvaginal ultrasound to SEE and HEAR the fetus' heartbeat before she can get an abortion.

Seriously? WTH?!

Offline Wolfy

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »
<_<>_>...Am I the only one who stopped reading at "Republican-Led" and wrote this off as Lunacy? :D

Offline Trieste

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 10:45:31 PM »
Thank god the legislators are concerned with what goes on in the bedroom and the doctor's office. I mean, if they didn't busy themselves with stuff like this, all their time might be taken up by trying to bring down the unemployment rate or stimulate the economy, and we can't have that.

Offline IniquitousTopic starter

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 10:52:39 PM »
I'd say I was shocked to read this ... but I'm not. I am irate over it though. It is ridiculous to think that they have the right to dictate to females what can and cannot be done with their reproductive organs. And this is the same law that can be used to outlaw contraceptives since those can cause spontaneous abortions of the zygote.

I thought the idea was to progress forward, not return to a time when women had no rights.

And the matter of forcing women to have a transvaginal ultrasound and signing that she has seen and heard the heartbeat? Ughs... going to stop now before I start chewing on the desk in frustration.

Offline Shjade

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 11:20:30 PM »
The first thought I had upon reading the summarized version:

"Man, I hope they plan to cover the cost of that transvaginal ultrasound for the women in question."

Offline elone

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 11:22:52 PM »
I do live in Virginia and let this be a warning to all as to what can happen when Republicans take over the legislature and the governorship. This legislation may well pass the Senate because it is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats with a Republican in the executive having the deciding vote on ties. Every indication is that the governor will sign these bills.

I can not understand why republicans, the party of less government in our lives, needs to have a say in anyones personal business. They are throwing everything they can at women to make it difficult for abortions, or birth control for that matter. Maybe they should ban coat hangers as well because that will be the only option left when they are through.

Another bill receiving attention is to repeal the one a month handgun purchase rule. Just not enough guns for them.

One more, they tabled a bill to outlaw dogs being used to kill fenced in foxes. Did they learn nothing from Michael Vick.

I could go on and on. What was once a progressive state government has been swept up by the tea party republicans. Virginia also put such gems as Eric Cantor in congress.

In November good old boy George Allen (R) is running for U.S. Senator. Remember him for having a noose in his office and his famous macaca remark.

We need help here in the Old Dominion.

Online Serephino

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 11:31:57 PM »
The stupid Tea Party has taken over the whole country.  Won't affect birth control my ass....

Online Observing Trifles

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 12:33:26 AM »
Thank god the legislators are concerned with what goes on in the bedroom and the doctor's office. I mean, if they didn't busy themselves with stuff like this, all their time might be taken up by trying to bring down the unemployment rate or stimulate the economy, and we can't have that.

You pretty much summed up everything my mind came up with in response to this insanity.

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 02:03:18 AM »
Another bill receiving attention is to repeal the one a month handgun purchase rule. Just not enough guns for them.

I used to live in Virginia, until we found out that you had to be a DINK* family to live in the DC area.  At the time that the one-a-month handgun purchase rule came into effect, the language could easily be interpreted that you had to buy one gun a month. 


*DINK=Double Income, No Kids

Offline Hemingway

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 11:10:49 AM »
I don't understand. If ..

Quote
The bill provides that “unborn children at every stage of development enjoy all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of the commonwealth, subject only to the laws and constitutions of Virginia and the United States, precedents of the United States Supreme Court, and provisions to the contrary in the statutes of the commonwealth.”

Then how can it not...

Quote
[ ... ]affect birth control, miscarriages or abortions

But then, I notice that in this quote,

Quote
“To claim using birth control will get you in trouble with this statue is simply false,’’ Marshall said. “It does not have the affect of criminalizing birth control. This does not directly effect abortion.’’

He conveniently neglects to mention miscarriages, and says it does not "directly" affect abortion. Now, I don't know what that means, but I know what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that it won't affect miscarriages, or that it won't, in some way, affect abortions. The language there is vague enough that people should at least be cautious.

( I also just noticed that, in the article, it says "effect abortion". Well, thank god! )

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 11:28:33 AM »
Ohio has introduced a bill to prevent physician assistants from putting in or removing IUDs.  Presumably, this is supposed to mean that physicians are allowed to insert or remove them.  However, while PAs function under the 'direct supervision of a physician', that supervision can be in person, by telecommunication systems or by other reliable means - which means that they are frequently seen in places where an actual physician doesn't have their main practice (clinics, rural areas, etc.).  The upshot is that women who want to use IUD birth control are going to have to locate, get to, and pay for a physician, putting still more burden on those who are already in economically strapped situations.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 11:30:12 AM by Oniya »

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 06:11:13 AM »
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/16/gop-kicks-women-out-of-contraception-debate-says-its-about-religion-not-women-video/

It's official.. the GOP.. has lost it's FUCKING MIND.

I want the part of 'right sizing' and admitting that we needed tax raises, and facing the hard reality of things..rather than the sellouts sucking up to the fundies and the Wall Street Bastrds.

Offline IniquitousTopic starter

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 07:51:43 AM »
New Hampshire's Rep says no birth control because it causes prostrate cancer

And this is a woman against birth control. Again, not shocked. But I am still trying to figure out how my daughter taking birth control will cause prostrate cancer in a man. My brain is simply not making the gigantic leap there.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 08:12:13 AM »
At least they didn't figure out they could tax birth control and could find a way to tax abortions. In the case of birth control a 25% tax would make buying over the counter options less popular and if they found the morning-after pill offensive charge enough to make getting it cost prohibitive say a 100% tax. For abortions they couldn't tax the procedure but could demand a permit to dispose of the fetus of say $1000 for suitable internment if they do the same for other human organic waste. (arms, legs, organs). I think if an abortion was say $1300 it would prevent them.

Lucky I'm not a Republican in some states I could do more damage i can think outside the box and get mean.  ;D

Seriously though I support the idea of a personhood for the unborn just not so broad I would have made it a resolution by the legislature that they consider the unborn a person and to consider any measures to reduce abortion demands in the state. Not make it a law more a statement. Then if they are serious I would have laws to make over-the-counter birth control easier to get and use in the state at least two condoms and contraceptive foam or jelly. That would be a good thing even if not perfect they could do.

Offline IniquitousTopic starter

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 08:29:37 AM »
At least they didn't figure out they could tax birth control and could find a way to tax abortions. In the case of birth control a 25% tax would make buying over the counter options less popular and if they found the morning-after pill offensive charge enough to make getting it cost prohibitive say a 100% tax. For abortions they couldn't tax the procedure but could demand a permit to dispose of the fetus of say $1000 for suitable internment if they do the same for other human organic waste. (arms, legs, organs). I think if an abortion was say $1300 it would prevent them.


No, they do not want to tax them. From the way things are looking, they are gearing up to just get rid of them altogether. Which, in my opinion (and a LOT of other women's opinion) is worse.

The simple fact of the matter is this. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. The uterus is not camping grounds for religious and/or political parties. It's real damn simple.

If you do not approve of abortions, do not have one.
If you do not approve of birth control, do not take them.
If you do not approve of having the fallopian tubes tied, do not do it.
But do not tell other women they cannot do it because you do not like it.

And sorry, the personhood bill? Asinine. A tiny, microscopic cluster of cells is NOT a person. This whole ridiculous debate is not a political debate. It's not even a medical debate. It is a religious debate with the right wingers trying to shove their beliefs down the throats of everyone in this country.

Oh, and lets not forget Santorum who just recently made a stir on CNN with this 'gem' about women who get pregnant from rape - and I quote: "I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you." (( Rape victims who get pregnant ought to make the best of a bad situation ))

This crap is getting outright stupid and if we aren't careful, we are not going to have rights over our own damn bodies anymore.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:30:54 AM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 08:53:06 AM »
I didn't say I support the bill I said a statement of principle with laws that would reduce abortion demand in a good way, but I'm thinking and most Republicans don't do that anymore.

Lets say you could get condoms and contraceptive foam and jelly ,basic tech that is not overly costly, for a very low price at any medical provider or pharmacy or other venues to be 100% available to anyone who asks. It would logically reduce the demand for abortion even if not perfect its there and would reduce the risk of pregnancy. That would respect personhood with a positive law that makes the demand for them reduced.

But your right I'm thinking and they aren't.

Offline IniquitousTopic starter

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2012, 09:36:29 AM »
The problem you encounter when you make it a law that says tiny, microscopic cells are a person and give those cells human rights is the fact that murder charges can then be brought into the equation.

Did you know that it is estimated that 30 to 50% of fertilized eggs fail to implant? (spontaneous abortion)

Did you know that some forms of birth control work to make the uterus an inhospitable environment so a zygote cannot implant? (spontaneous abortion)

Most (not all) birth control alters the hormone levels in a woman so that her body thinks she is already pregnant and keeps her from ovulating - thus keeps her from getting pregnant. Which means that all those millions of sperm and eggs that never ripen are "wasted". A sin in the eyes of the catholic church because it is denying a life from being born.

How would a miscarriage be treated? Murder or act of god? What if the miscarriage is because the woman fell at work or in a store - is the employer or the store going to be held liable for murder?

Are you starting to see the problem with the personhood bill? It sets the standard that laws can be placed to outlaw birth control on the grounds that it is denying life/murdering a life. And if you think that they would stop at just saying a zygote is a person - think again. It's a mighty deep rabbit hole they'd be taking us down.

Oh, and if a zygote is a person - can I claim it on my taxes? Does it get a social security number? Can I take life insurance out on it? All valid questions if you are going to start claiming a tiny cluster of cells is a person.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2012, 12:46:36 PM »
Not to mention that some women simply miscarry. No ill intent, plotting or hazardous material/practices needed. They. Just. Happen.

Now take a woman that was pregnant and miscarries. Under personhood laws, she can be investigated for MANSLAUGHTER or even MURDER. My mom had two miscarriages pretty far along and understood that it happened. She was a nurse. It still messed with her head for months. I've seen friends and coworkers go through it.

The idea of having a cop INVESTIGATE them for a crime when none occurred and at such a fragile time is wrong.

Period.

Offline Trieste

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 01:59:52 PM »
... not to mention that condoms and foams and jelly are not necessarily the way to go for everyone. It's not uncommon for people to be allergic or sensitive to random things. Allergy to latex is a big one, but also allergies to preservatives in the jellies, allergies to the spermicide itself, etc, means that those options do not work for some people. (Women as well as men.)

That is why there are so many different forms of birth control available. If you do not want to have a child with your husband at all, ever, there is an efficient way to make sure of that: three-year implants. If you're not sure that you want to have a child, you can go with shorter intervals such as the monthly Nuvaring or the three-month Depo shot. All of these options are available because they are convenient, and they minimize the probability of mistakes, which in this case means minimizing the probability of unintended pregnancy.

The idea of some rich guy trying to decide what happens to my uterus without even knowing me is abhorrent. If I ever end up having a hysterectomy, the first thing I'm going to do is put the damn thing in a Ziplock and send it on down to Rick Santorum with a note. "Now you can do whatever you want with my uterus, jackass." Because that's the only way men like him, and like the VA legislation, are going to have control over what I do with it.

What sucks is that these laws may soon apply to me, as one of the grad schools I'm applying to is in Virginia. -_-

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 02:12:37 PM »
... not to mention that condoms and foams and jelly are not necessarily the way to go for everyone. It's not uncommon for people to be allergic or sensitive to random things. Allergy to latex is a big one, but also allergies to preservatives in the jellies, allergies to the spermicide itself, etc, means that those options do not work for some people. (Women as well as men.)

I've seen some truly.. EPIC reactions to latex gloves. We used them for recovery work and other things.. I can't imagine what it would be like 'down' there with the reaction the person I saw react to them.

Truthfully, what disturbs me is a TINY portion of the population is ramrodding through laws that effect EVERYONE to an extent that a lot of people aren't seeing yet. When we lived in the Republic of Ireland, one of my dad's coworkers had to have birth control for hormone control. At the time, you had to find a Doctor who would prescribe it and then a Pharmacist who would fill it. In a country that was still very much under the thumb of the Roman Catholic Church. Sooo.. two to three times a year she had to fly to ENGLAND to get examined and her prescription filled because at the time the company couldn't get anyone in the entire country to reliably help her out. (Least for her state of mind)


Offline Chris Brady

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2012, 03:23:30 PM »
I don't live in Virginia so I can't really say much about it, but I do agree that it's a heavy handed move.

However, for most of you, as well as myself, this is mostly a mental exercise.  It 's not like most of you will have to worry about this.  This is also a contentious topic for me because I am Pro-Life.  But, like most reasonable people with my stance, there are limits.  If the pregnancy is going to harm the mother to be in ways that could be crippling, like weakened immune systems and the like, then yes, as sad as it is, the baby has to go.  That's my stance.

Thing is, nowadays, abortion is being used as problem remover.  It's easy, it's convenient and it's relatively safe.  In fact it's so risk-free that idiots are using it willy-nilly.  I personally know of three girls who have had several to get rid of oopses.  One even mentioned that she hates the feel of condoms.  Not that she's allergic to them, just finds them unfun.  And I'm pretty sure she doesn't know of any other contraceptive methods.  I think she's on her seventh, last I heard?  Close to that, at any rate.

And it's not just teens who do it.  There are career women who do it because it's inconvenient.  Not painful, no just in the way.  Which brings up an issue I have with a fair amount of the Pro-Choice camp is that it's all about 'Me!'  Screw everyone else, it's all about them.  The fact that it takes two to tango.  Or that the baby didn't have much choice in the matter.  Nope, if it's inconvenient, it's gone!

Now admittedly most young men in their teens and twenties would probably be relieved, if the girl the that accidentally got pregnant got rid of it (which is pretty damn sad too) but I know of one incident where the boyfriend was, admittedly, nervous and upset that they screwed up.  But he wanted the child, even his mother offered to take the baby, if the girl didn't want it (I understood that she didn't.)  However, behind his back and apparently in secrecy, she got an abortion.  Because it's her body, and fuck everyone else.  She even tried to keep him as a boyfriend.  I know that he killed himself about, I think, a month later.  She mourned him all of three days and jumped some other boy.  I moved out of the neighbourhood shortly there after.  I do know that whenever his mother sees her or her own mother on the street, as they lived in the same general area, she screams,"I want my son back!" and then walks away.  Got to see that a couple of times.  Not pleasant.

Now for those of you who might be allergic to various contraception methods, learn to talk to your doctor.  I know for a fact that back in 1991 there were medical ways to do it.  Unless of course, we've all slipped back 30 years in medical technology.  Nowadays I don't know anymore.

In the end though, is it right for any governmental body to get involved?  No, it is not, but what can you do when self-centered irresponsibility effectively kills thousands of embryos every day?

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 03:35:00 PM »
Okay - I just read that there is apparently an 'exception' in the bill when it comes to in vitro fertilization.  The basic procedure there is that you collect eggs from the mother, sperm from the father, and create a whole passel of fertilized eggs.  These are allowed to develop to a certain stage, and are then put into the uterus - several at a time - in the hopes that one will implant.  They put in several because there is a good chance that any given embryo won't implant.

Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that multiple embryos won't implant.  Octomom was an extreme example (and an ethical IVF physician wouldn't have put that many in to begin with), but multiple implants do happen.  At that point, the woman typically undergoes 'selective reduction' for one of several reasons - including that multiple births are generally problematic health-wise for both mother and fetuses.  According to the exception, this is okay - despite the fact that these embryos would have been classed as 'persons' and subject to the ultrasound/heartbeat law had they been in the womb singly.

Offline Trieste

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Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 03:37:21 PM »
The thing is that contraception prevents abortions. It prevents unwanted pregnancies and it prevents the consequences thereof. If someone doesn't like the feel of condoms, instead of having them in the abortion clinic, they can be given other methods of contraception. So attacking contraception in the pursuit of an anti-choice agenda is counterproductive. You can't have lower abortion rates and outlaw contraception. You have to choose one or the other.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 03:47:55 PM »
Exactly.. if you're anti-abortion.. contraception and education ARE needed. To think that people will blithely go and NOT have sex because they don't know the options is foolish. I know that my senior year in the small highschool that I went to in the sandhills o' SC, there were no less than 20 'Winchester Weddings' because of babies on the way. One of my friends from school did the right thing..he talked to the girl, they agreed..he paid.. and she DIDN'T get it. He wound up a daddy because his FATHER made him do the 'right thing'. He went to school while the family helped out. The girl destroyed her life to the point he and his father sat down and thought out their options. He wound up giving UP his parental rights to ensure that his FATHER could adopt the kid. It was the only way they could break the chain of danger to the baby.

It nearly KILLED him. Last I heard, he's spent the last 10 years clean and sober, but still can't look his little girl in the face for shame of not being there for her. He went to college cause his dad made him. He's ashamed..though from what I've heard his girl (who is now college age) loves him and doesn't blame him.. she was raised almost exclusively by his side of the family and they are a great (if occasionally wacky) bunch of folks.

Her mother, on the other hand, has bounced in and out of the system and has a list of habits and offenses that would stagger the mind. And if they hadn't pulled every legal dirty trick they could, she'd still have custody of her.

A lot of grief could have been avoided by proper planning and teaching of proper reproductive options.

D

Offline vtboy

Re: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 03:51:37 PM »
Chrus, I've read the Constitution a few times and, while I may not be the world's most astute reader, I do not recall anything in it about denying its protections to the self-centered and irresponsible. Either you agree with Griswold and Roe that the gummint has to keep its damn nose out if the bedroom and the womb or you don't. It may be unfortunate that there are those among us for whom abortion is the preferred method of birth control, but that just ain't the business of Virginia's legislature. Abortion is just one of the hazards of being a fetus. Let mom take it up with god, if there is one.