Topic: WTH?! So glad I do not live in Virginia

[Callie Del Noire]

Chrus, I've read the Constitution a few times and, while I may not be the world's most astute reader, I do not recall anything in it about denying its protections to the self-centered and irresponsible. Either you agree with Griswold and Roe that the gummint has to keep its damn nose out if the bedroom and the womb or you don't. It may be unfortunate that there are those among us for whom abortion is the preferred method of birth control, but that just ain't the business of Virginia's legislature. Abortion is just one of the hazards of being a fetus. Let mom take it up with god, if there is one.

Do I think abortion is wrong? For me.. yes. For someone else? I'm not sure. It's their choice and ethical decision. Everyone I KNOW who has had it thought on it. It weighted on them. Then. Afterwards. Years afterwards.

I have yet to personally meet someone who blithely thought of it as an alternative to birth control or something that can be casually done. I've had a squadron mate who WAS raped and still regretted doing it. Despite the fact that she'd been exposed to MEK and a LOT of other nasty hazmat items during the assault. Last I heard from her..she's sterile. So yeah, I know it weighs on her mind a lot.

Personally? I think access to birth control, PROPER education and the crazy fundie faction needs to accept if they want to stop abortion they need to move forward and compromise. Accept that you aren't always the best teacher for your kids, particularly when you are culturually stuck on sex as bad.  Accept that shit happens. Accept that kids WILL have sex, they will experiment. They WON'T be the loyal little sheep you expect them to be.

And lastly... ACCEPT that your way of life isn't everyone elses.

[Iniquitous]

Said it once, I’ll say it again.

If you do not like/believe in abortions, don’t have one.
If you do not like/believe in birth control, don’t take them/use them.
If you do not like/ believe in sterilization to keep from having children, don’t have it done.
But do NOT tell others what they can and cannot do. Do NOT take the rights of others away just because your morals say you shouldn’t do something.

And honestly, if men gave birth, abortion and birth control would be amendments to the constitution.

For the record - I've been raped and became pregnant from it. I chose not to abort because, for me, it is not right. But you better damn well believe I will fight for the right to choose. No one has the right to tell any woman whether she can use birth control or whether she can have an abortion.

[Serephino]

Said it once, I’ll say it again.

If you do not like/believe in abortions, don’t have one.
If you do not like/believe in birth control, don’t take them/use them.
If you do not like/ believe in sterilization to keep from having children, don’t have it done.
But do NOT tell others what they can and cannot do. Do NOT take the rights of others away just because your morals say you shouldn’t do something.

And honestly, if men gave birth, abortion and birth control would be amendments to the constitution.

For the record - I've been raped and became pregnant from it. I chose not to abort because, for me, it is not right. But you better damn well believe I will fight for the right to choose. No one has the right to tell any woman whether she can use birth control or whether she can have an abortion.

This.  Honestly, I don't see how making birth control available is an attack on religion.  I don't see religious people being forced to use it.  I have a feeling the women who want birth control have no religious problem with it.

I too know a girl who didn't like condoms because it didn't feel as good.  Every time she thought she might be pregnant she went out to the bar and drank until she had alcohol poisoning to kill it.  She did that about a dozen times before she went to Planned Parenthood for birth control.  Even then she still managed to get pregnant a few times and went to a bar to kill it...

But really, the government just needs to back the hell off.  It's pissing me off that Republicans are bringing a religion I want no part of into politics that's affecting me and people I care about.  I'm anti-abortion, but pro-birth control.

[Chris Brady]

For the record, I am for education and contraception.  The issue is still one of 'Me!'  Sadly a lot of people still don't believe it will happen to them.  It's always to 'someone else'.  Hate to break it to you, but to your best friends and even family, you are that 'someone else'.

That's the general you.

[Oniya]

Well said.

I just got back from reading an article that said Rep. Jeanine Notter (R-VT) referenced this article by Dr. Brownstein that insinuated that the Pill (while taken exclusively by women) can cause prostate cancer in men.  Brownstein's article references this study.

Of course, there are certain pills for men that can increase the danger of birth defects if women who 'are or may become pregnant' simply handle the pills (Propecia is the one I immediately remember - it's for androgenic alopecia).  That wasn't enough to take those off the market - it took a finding that Propecia may cause ED to prompt any sort of action.

[Serephino]

Yep.  Sadly, this is still a man's world because the government is still mostly run by men.  They won't even let women speak at these hearings because they aren't qualified to give a valid opinion.  I mean, it only affects them...  I really hate seeing this country start going backwards on women's rights. 

[Serephino]

http://www.dccc.org/pages/wherearethewomen

Got another email about this.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well said.

I just got back from reading an article that said Rep. Jeanine Notter (R-VT) referenced this article by Dr. Brownstein that insinuated that the Pill (while taken exclusively by women) can cause prostate cancer in men.  Brownstein's article references this study.

Of course, there are certain pills for men that can increase the danger of birth defects if women who 'are or may become pregnant' simply handle the pills (Propecia is the one I immediately remember - it's for androgenic alopecia).  That wasn't enough to take those off the market - it took a finding that Propecia may cause ED to prompt any sort of action.

You know the material I worked around in the Navy has some truly EPIC reproductive health hazards to women. I know that that w the reason we had to put our pregnant servicewomen in positions outside the shop we they (or medical) notified us. If I had a dollar for everytime one of my female workers had to sit through a briefing on that, I could have bought the shop lunches a LOT. It was kind of scary just hearing about the general stuff, but the fertility bit could annoying.

[Oniya]

You know the material I worked around in the Navy has some truly EPIC reproductive health hazards to women. I know that that w the reason we had to put our pregnant servicewomen in positions outside the shop we they (or medical) notified us. If I had a dollar for everytime one of my female workers had to sit through a briefing on that, I could have bought the shop lunches a LOT. It was kind of scary just hearing about the general stuff, but the fertility bit could annoying.

True enough, but I'm willing to bet that the stuff you worked around wasn't something that Jane-in-the-Street would be likely to run into on an average day.  Propecia was heavily advertised for men's hair loss - which is a pretty big business.

[Callie Del Noire]

True enough, but I'm willing to bet that the stuff you worked around wasn't something that Jane-in-the-Street would be likely to run into on an average day.  Propecia was heavily advertised for men's hair loss - which is a pretty big business.

Let's see. TRIK, MEK, radiant energy hazards (high output radar and radios), JP5, Hydralic fluid. (that sucks let me tell you) and other shit I can't recall

[Oniya]

Yeah, about the only thing that looks common-place would be hydraulic fluid.  I worked around some nasty stuff when I did IT work for a research lab (we all had to know where the emergency antivirals were).  The point is that people in general are more likely to run into hormone pills than any of that crap.

[Oniya]

I laughed so hard I cried.  Michelle Bachmann - while no longer remotely associated with the Presidential race - is still chowing down on those migraine-inducing high heels:

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/bachmann-gop-is-extremely-pro-woman?ref=fpb

[HockeyGod]

If I were a woman and needing an abortion, I would be sure to film the pre-procedure and send it to my legislators and the governor asking them if I can go ahead.

This is redunkulous!

[Trieste]

Since the kind of ultrasound they require involves penetrating the vagina with a probe, it is literally unwanted penetration with a foreign object.

Which is the definition of rape.

But it's okay because it's rape in pursuit of slut-shaming coercion making an already difficult decision even more difficult. Thanks, rich white guys! *thumbsup*

[Oniya]

Yeah, some commentator was saying that the ultrasound was 'just like sex'.

Yeah.  Humiliating, non-consensual sex, but sex nonetheless.

[HeyThereLittleBear]

Congrats, Virginia.

Working your way to becoming like Pennsylvania.

13-year-old self-aborts using pencil

[RecklessRapscallion]

America, nation deprived of intelligence, ruled by fundamentalist crazies, and enslaved by capitalism.

[Trieste]

Capitalism has little to do with the restriction of the rights of American women. In fact, restricting the market with government regulations is very anti-capitalist. I'll also thank you not to lump intelligent, sane Americans in with the likes of Rick Santorum and other legislators who are unable to separate their own religious zealotry from their public office. Furthermore, the fact that changes like this aren't exactly sweeping the country points to the fact that American citizens are doing what we can to keep the crazies from taking over.

So thank you for your blanket statements about America and Americans; they say more about your ignorance than my country.

[RecklessRapscallion]

Capitalism has little to do with the restriction of the rights of American women. In fact, restricting the market with government regulations is very anti-capitalist. I'll also thank you not to lump intelligent, sane Americans in with the likes of Rick Santorum and other legislators who are unable to separate their own religious zealotry from their public office. Furthermore, the fact that changes like this aren't exactly sweeping the country points to the fact that American citizens are doing what we can to keep the crazies from taking over.

So thank you for your blanket statements about America and Americans; they say more about your ignorance than my country.

You are right, my post was off topic and incredibly vague not to mention rather belligerent. I do apologies I should have put more of an effort in explaining why I brought it up opposed to making a first impression as an ignorant schmuck.

I am American too.

I support a free market capitalist society but we are far from a free market, but I will not get into that and stay on topic.

 The restrictions on a women's rights to choose is one of the many issues our nation seems to be plagued with, I do not support any law nor policy to govern or enforce peoples individual personal choices or life styles. The fact that our politicians are focusing more on restricting American individual liberties then resolving issues like medical, education reform, and hell maybe eliminating our debt is rather disgusting. But it comes to no surprise it seems each time we have an election both parties tend to focus on things like how to stop abortion or the prevention of homosexual rights.

First of all homosexual rights should not even need to be debated, it does not directly effect anyone but the interested parties. Our nation has gone so far with the evolution of civil rights but it seems each time we take a step up we take two steps down.

Abortion is another topic, some find it touchy but I never really figured what the big deal is. If a woman is impregnated in any way it is their decision if they would like to keep the baby. They do not allow abortions (as far as I know) when it is way too late in the developmental cycle and either way how I see it is we are a modern society, we are not in the bloody dark ages, the only arguments for anti-abortion I hear are religiously fueled, though I would like to hear a stand point from some one who is Anti-abortion but agnostic. -shrug-

My opinion is I feel that the only reason they bring up issues like abortion, gay rights, or what have you is they are trying to dodge or not take care of the real issues. Like fixing are damn economy, and revitalizing our education system.

[Trieste]

On that we can definitely agree. Legislative energies are much better focused on other things. Even if the GOP were to tackle the quality of living for those who choose not to abort rather than try to prevent the procedure itself, I might be able to get behind them a little more. But providing for impoverished families is also antithetical to the GOP dogma, so I'm not sure what they expect single mothers, rape victims, and teenagers to do.

[RecklessRapscallion]

On that we can definitely agree. Legislative energies are much better focused on other things. Even if the GOP were to tackle the quality of living for those who choose not to abort rather than try to prevent the procedure itself, I might be able to get behind them a little more. But providing for impoverished families is also antithetical to the GOP dogma, so I'm not sure what they expect single mothers, rape victims, and teenagers to do.

Yeah, sorry if I come up as jaded politics in the last 10 years has left me depressed and bitter.

We are electing officials to represent our voice, but our voices fall on def ears. Hopefully the next congress will be less clown shoes then our current one. A 97% disapproval rate I find is incredibly disgusting, nothing will happen unless we let it. Congress exists to resolve issues but when it is clogged up with no reform we get into the situation we are in right now. Anywho I need to bounce for now it was nice talking to you all.

~ Rapscallion

[vtboy]

I'll also thank you not to lump intelligent, sane Americans in with the likes of Rick Santorum and other legislators who are unable to separate their own religious zealotry from their public office. Furthermore, the fact that changes like this aren't exactly sweeping the country points to the fact that American citizens are doing what we can to keep the crazies from taking over.

I don't know whether the crazies and those unable to separate their own religious views from the obligations of public office are yet in the majority. Any thinking person must, however, be somewhat unsettled by the following signposts, among many others, on our road to mindless, xenophobic theocracy: (1) Christine O'Donnell, who believes masturbation a societal scourge, received over 40% of the vote in her 2010 bid to become senator from Delaware; (2) at various times over the last few months, Michelle Bachman, Rick Perry, Hermain Cain, and Rick Santorum each led the Republican presidential pack, each polling in the vicinity of 30%; (3) only a year ago, polls showed 51% of Republicans believed Obama was foreign born (though the birther thing seems to be in remission, like other cancers, there is no guarantee it won't come back); (4) according to the National Science Foundation, between 12% and 16% of high school biology teachers are creationists and, according to Fox News, about the same percentage present "intelligent design" as a valid scientific alternative to evolution (and this after federal courts have held the teaching of "intelligent design" violates the Establishment Clause); (5) Rick Santorum labeled the views of those who would protect the environment from unrestrained pillage a "theology".

As I close in on my seventh decade, I find myself in ever deeper despair that victories claimed in my youth by reason and humanist decency have again become open contests.  Perhaps the assumption of our founding fathers that we are a people capable of self-rule was a bit overly optimistic.       

[Callie Del Noire]

I don't know whether the crazies and those unable to separate their own religious views from the obligations of public office are yet in the majority. Any thinking person must, however, be somewhat unsettled by the following signposts, among many others, on our road to mindless, xenophobic theocracy: (1) Christine O'Donnell, who believes masturbation a societal scourge, received over 40% of the vote in her 2010 bid to become senator from Delaware; (2) at various times over the last few months, Michelle Bachman, Rick Perry, Hermain Cain, and Rick Santorum each led the Republican presidential pack, each polling in the vicinity of 30%; (3) only a year ago, polls showed 51% of Republicans believed Obama was foreign born (though the birther thing seems to be in remission, like other cancers, there is no guarantee it won't come back); (4) according to the National Science Foundation, between 12% and 16% of high school biology teachers are creationists and, according to Fox News, about the same percentage present "intelligent design" as a valid scientific alternative to evolution (and this after federal courts have held the teaching of "intelligent design" violates the Establishment Clause); (5) Rick Santorum labeled the views of those who would protect the environment from unrestrained pillage a "theology".

As I close in on my seventh decade, I find myself in ever deeper despair that victories claimed in my youth by reason and humanist decency have again become open contests.  Perhaps the assumption of our founding fathers that we are a people capable of self-rule was a bit overly optimistic.       

I would hold back on believe a poll that said the sky was blue unless they give their polling methods. When I was watching my brother run for office they had one candidate say he had the approval of something like 70% of all republicans surveyed. Till we found out that the survey was for like.. six core counties around his home and of the 15,000+ surveyed like 11,000 lived in those counties.

Survey weight depends on HOW it was done, where it was done and how you spin the figures. I've seen a LOT of 'polls' that didn't show their 'error' because it was WAY more than a +/- 5% margin. One I looked into had like an +/- of 12%. That means they got a LOT of numbers to play with.

Used to be the folks on TV would cite the margin of error. Now you are lucky to SEE it on those purty graphs they show.

[Oniya]

I would hold back on believe a poll that said the sky was blue unless they give their polling methods. When I was watching my brother run for office they had one candidate say he had the approval of something like 70% of all republicans surveyed. Till we found out that the survey was for like.. six core counties around his home and of the 15,000+ surveyed like 11,000 lived in those counties.

Survey weight depends on HOW it was done, where it was done and how you spin the figures. I've seen a LOT of 'polls' that didn't show their 'error' because it was WAY more than a +/- 5% margin. One I looked into had like an +/- of 12%. That means they got a LOT of numbers to play with.

Used to be the folks on TV would cite the margin of error. Now you are lucky to SEE it on those purty graphs they show.

Yup.  Mark Twain had it right, and as a person with a math degree I can attest to it:  lies, damn lies, and statistics.  All of those web surveys you see?  Practically useless, because in order to vote in them, you have to be inclined to go to the site hosting it - whether that's Faux News or Old Farts For Super-Sized Families.  As a result, you already have a bias towards the answer they want.

[Callie Del Noire]

Yup.  Mark Twain had it right, and as a person with a math degree I can attest to it:  lies, damn lies, and statistics.  All of those web surveys you see?  Practically useless, because in order to vote in them, you have to be inclined to go to the site hosting it - whether that's Faux News or Old Farts For Super-Sized Families.  As a result, you already have a bias towards the answer they want.

Don't forget spin in the questions. That can do a LOT of manipulate things towards getting the answer you want.  Been rereading a bit of Sam Clemens autobiography again.. the man had the feel for things. Stuff he said like.. 120+ years ago still are current. He didn't pull blows. Odds are he'd be in trouble if he was alive today.