Trump

[Tolvo]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/01/politics/trump-immigration-speech-asylum/index.html
Looks like he is amping things up and that people will likely be gunned down at the borders.

[persephone325]

"Make America great again! ........By committing senseless murder."

[Sara Nilsson]

And every day I become more and more ashamed of this country.

[persephone325]

And every day I become more and more ashamed of this country.

Ditto.

[Lustful Bride]

I hope the troops remember that they are allowed to disobey immoral orders.

[persephone325]

I hope the troops remember that they are allowed to disobey immoral orders.

I didn't know that, actually. But it's good that I do now.

[Lustful Bride]

I didn't know that, actually. But it's good that I do now.

My father actually mentioned it to me before, I don't remember the specific wording but if someone says something like "Burn that village" they can go "I will not obey that order!"

The only issue is if the caravan gets rowdy from the heat and starts throwing rocks, or if some psycho hides and starts firing at both sides to instigate a larger fight.

[gaggedLouise]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/01/politics/trump-immigration-speech-asylum/index.html
Looks like he is amping things up and that people will likely be gunned down at the borders.

Yep, I watched parts of that speech too, it was a real blast of propaganda by means of fear and multiple lies.

"If they arrive at our border and begin throwing stones we will treat it the same way as if it had been firearms" - very nice. Prepare for heaps of dead or injured people just off the Mexico border.

And he's pretty much describing the migrant caravans as one big mob of drug dealers, human traffickers, rapists, robbers and people who want to live on US welfare for good. Where have I heard that before...?

[Tolvo]

It can get really complicated disobeying orders based on believing something is immoral. Like our current military probably won't be kind to people refusing at all unless it is tens of thousands of troops doing so or more. It is very likely to end up in jail for doing so. And it's not like the Vietnam War where people could more easily kill their officers secretly and get away with it(Fragging them). You'd need someone pretty high up to contradict orders and Trump has lots of generals tightly wound around his finger.

[Lustful Bride]

The military is already making plans to deal with US based militia groups that might try to incite incidents or 'help' them with the caravan.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/troops-preparing-for-armed-militias-at-border/ar-BBPdFTr?ocid=spartandhp

[Various]

My Lai is a fairly well-known example of the principle of an unlawful order. In this case, "General" Bonespurs will try and order the murder of refugees.

[Callie Del Noire]

And every day I become more and more ashamed of this country.

I feel similarly Sara but I remind myself that while he is my president, he is not my country.. he is merely the head of government. I support those who are not agreeing with him, I nag those that refuse to do their duty and stand up to him in the halls of congress.

To say something similar to Mark Twain.. "Loyalty to Country always, loyalty to government so long as it has earned it."

[Tolvo]

Trump is not really an anomaly, he represents America as a country fairly well. Like I think he's an irredeemable monster sure but let's not pretend that he is like some mastermind that tricked everyone who no one supports. And he's not even our worst president we've had. Like remember that the Nazis based their programs and ideas on the US government's treatment of Africans and Native Americans. Trump is just an extreme product of America, and every bit as American as the rest of us.

[Lustful Bride]

Trump is not really an anomaly, he represents America as a country fairly well. Like I think he's an irredeemable monster sure but let's not pretend that he is like some mastermind that tricked everyone who no one supports. And he's not even our worst president we've had. Like remember that the Nazis based their programs and ideas on the US government's treatment of Africans and Native Americans. Trump is just an extreme product of America, and every bit as American as the rest of us.

Lets not give the racists and bigots too much credibility. Id say more that this country is very bipolar. Heroic and preaching about equality and freedom one minute, and electing the Orange Nyarlathotep the next. While he is one face of America he is not the only face, he is not our soul, he is only one side of us and there are many beautiful, noble, and empathetic sides to this country.

[Callie Del Noire]

Trump is not really an anomaly, he represents America as a country fairly well. Like I think he's an irredeemable monster sure but let's not pretend that he is like some mastermind that tricked everyone who no one supports. And he's not even our worst president we've had. Like remember that the Nazis based their programs and ideas on the US government's treatment of Africans and Native Americans. Trump is just an extreme product of America, and every bit as American as the rest of us.

No he's not, he's also not the thing we can be. Unlike most of the past presidents, I see very little that makes me think he cares for the country.. it's just an arena he can exult in his own toxic self. I am glad to not be forced to have him as my commander in chief. I think this most current toxic government both the White House and congress comes from a long chain of actions leading back to authoritian assholes like Newt Gingrich, who worked his entire career to kill anything bipartisan or even remotely functional in congress, and others who followed after him on both sides of the aisle.

[Tolvo]

I know plenty of bipolar people who are quite lovely people.

I just don't see Trump as being that different than what many Americans think and what our country has represented since it's origins. He does say more of the quiet parts out loud, but they're still things a lot of people think. It also depends on the group of Americans we talk about. Trump definitely represents white Americans. Not really anyone else, any marginalized group in America. We don't even know if he'll lose if he goes up for reelection, after all the horrid things he's done as president, because a lot of people in America still love what he's doing or are indifferent to what he does. Because unless it negatively effects them a lot of people don't really care. We do have protesters who try to fight back who are heroic people, but they're not the majority of Americans.

[Callie Del Noire]

I know plenty of bipolar people who are quite lovely people.

I just don't see Trump as being that different than what many Americans think and what our country has represented since it's origins. He does say more of the quiet parts out loud, but they're still things a lot of people think. It also depends on the group of Americans we talk about. Trump definitely represents white Americans. Not really anyone else, any marginalized group in America. We don't even know if he'll lose if he goes up for reelection, after all the horrid things he's done as president, because a lot of people in America still love what he's doing or are indifferent to what he does. Because unless it negatively effects them a lot of people don't really care. We do have protesters who try to fight back who are heroic people, but they're not the majority of Americans.

As a bipolar person I personally dislike the comparison. I know we aren't perfect, but we have set high goals. I know enough of my own family history to know how bad it can be, my many times removed grandmother walked back to the east coast from where the Trail of Tears deposited her family. I know that she came back from somewhere in Kansas.

I have friends whose fathers and grandfathers carried scars from the labor movement and civil rights era.

I worked with folks whose grandparents were interred during the 2nd world war, or who personally walked over 100 miles on foot to claim asylum or present proof of citizenship to get help to get to the States where he worked his fucking ass off to bring his family over.

There is good here, but like everywhere else.. there is bad. The thing I learned living overseas as a child and adult is you have to stand up and speak up. I used to just vote.. now I research,  I follow what my elected officials say/do as best I can and keep an eye on the issues I feel are important.

The President terrifies me, he's done more to damage us than he has to help. Two presidents in a row have lost standing overseas for failing to win support or keep alliances.. now this man..

He is my president, sadly, but he is NOT this country.

How we came to this? Apathy and fear. Something like 1 in 3 ELIGIBLE citizens actually bother to register. Less than half of those that do, bother to actually vote most cycles. That is the apathy. The fear comes from I dunno.. letting folks like Trump and Gingrich divide and distract us.

I'm babbling .. so I'm gonna shut up now.

[Tolvo]

I mean, I don't mind babbling. We're having a political discussion usually those aren't short and concise unless we're in a very formal setting.
As long as we stay on topic and civil towards each other I don't see long posts as a problem.

Apathy, and disenfranchisement did factor in with his election. If as many people had voted for Hillary as had voted for Obama, Trump would not have stood even remotely a chance. And we'd probably be having a discussion about how she'd be doing as president hehe.

Trump definitely terrifies me. But I just don't see him as too different from a lot of presidents in the past or as bad as a them. Like when it comes to deportation for example. What president has deported the most people in the uSA? It's actually Obama. Before him, W Bush. Now if Trump gets a second term at the rate he's going he'll set the new record. And on top of that in regards to treatment of other countries, those being bombed and invaded and occupied, there's gonna be really little difference between any modern president since they all have supported that. Now Trump is more brazen in his awful treatment of his own citizens, but previous presidents just wouldn't have even considered those people citizens.

[Blythe]

Trump is not really an anomaly, he represents America as a country fairly well. Like I think he's an irredeemable monster sure but let's not pretend that he is like some mastermind that tricked everyone who no one supports. And he's not even our worst president we've had. Like remember that the Nazis based their programs and ideas on the US government's treatment of Africans and Native Americans. Trump is just an extreme product of America, and every bit as American as the rest of us.

Yeah, after some thought, I also don't think he's an anomaly. I think Trump is the product of what happens when extremist propaganda gets too widely circulated and touted as truth over a long period of time to large segments of the population.

When he talks, I can't help but just...strongly think of InfoWars. And what happens when anti-intellectualism gets glorified for too long.

I don't think he necessarily represents the entirety of our country well.

But I think the sheer fact he got elected showcases a lot of the worst parts of the USA certainly, parts that do indeed exist and are in greater numbers than many people realized, finally brought forth into a remarkably toxic spotlight.

[Tolvo]

Well Trump did have ties to InfoWars. He used to repeat a lot of their theories. But since Alex Jones called for people to go into the streets and kill all trans people they find most have cut ties with InfoWars.

[gaggedLouise]

Trump deplores the pipe bomb spree and the Pittsburgh bombings - "two maniacs" - because they cut into the momentum of his midterms campaign to make Congress even more red and conservative. 

Ever heard about rising to the occasion, Donny?

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/01/politics/trump-maniacs-midterm-momentum-missouri/index.html

[Mechelle]

For a more light-hearted post, I have learned something from Susie Dent, who is a famous British lexicographer.

She says that,  in the nineteenth century, the word "trumperiness" referred to "something that is cheek-puffingly showy but also utterly worthless." How prescient!

[gaggedLouise]

The adjective trumpen in Swedish means "curmudgeonly, sour and difficult /mood, person/"

[Tolvo]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/world/africa/nigeria-trump-rocks.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
Well I guess governments are already using Trump's statements about gunning down people at the border to justify murdering civilians.

[gaggedLouise]

Michael Cohen says Trump privately told him that black people were too stupid to vote for him, and himnted that blacks are inherently inferior.  ^_ ^

He had even "challenged Cohen to name “one country run by a black person that’s not a shithole”

Regarding a contestant on The Apprentice, Cohen claimed: “He said, ‘There’s no way I can let this black f-g win.’”

If these remarks were made during the Obama presidency (as is likely) the next-to-last one gets even more interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/02/donald-trump-michael-cohen-racist-language-vanity-fair

Why am I not surprised?