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Author Topic: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Basically Full)  (Read 17639 times)

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Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #250 on: August 08, 2010, 01:05:56 PM »
You usually don't.  However, Katina might be generous.  It's her thing.

Just a warning.  I would get thirty more skill points if you do permit us to get more skill points from intelligence-increasing items, K!

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #251 on: August 08, 2010, 01:18:25 PM »
One never gets skill points from int increase via items, do they?  Or how does that work again.

You don't get more from enhancement bonuses, which is what almost all items give.

You would get more from Inherent bonuses, which you can get from wish-granting items or the Manuals/Tomes.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #252 on: August 08, 2010, 01:20:10 PM »
That doesn't seem correct, Wizard. :/

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #253 on: August 08, 2010, 01:23:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure Wyzard has it right - enhancement bonuses don't improve skill points. Permanent bonuses, such as inherent ones, do, but normally only for levels taken after the bonus is gained - making Int increases affect skill points retroactively is a houserule, if a common one.

Interestingly, Pathfinder changed this - items that give Int bonuses also come 'attuned' to a specific skill, giving you max ranks in that skill as long as you wear the item.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #254 on: August 08, 2010, 01:36:18 PM »
Ugh.  3.x had such piss-poor organization.  I can't find a discussion outside of the descriptions of the items themselves.

Cites:

Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small
gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband
adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement
bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does
not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained;

use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.

Tome of Clear Thought: This heavy book contains instruction
on improving memory and logic, but entwined within the words
is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes
a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent
bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her
Intelligence score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears
from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Because the tome of
clear thought provides an inherent bonus
, the reader will earn extra
skill points when she attains a new level (unlike with the benefit
provided by a headband of intellect).

I would recommend keeping the inherent/enhancement divide, but level-ups and inherent bonuses should grant retroactive skill points.  Enhancement-bonuses are too easy to get to allow them to grant a pile of extra skill points.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #255 on: August 08, 2010, 01:42:37 PM »
I has a fracking lot of skill points, lol, and dont know how to spend em due to the factotum gift of knowing so much about everything...

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #256 on: August 08, 2010, 01:48:47 PM »
When you've got a pile of skill points, the formula for quick assigning them is easy.

As a factotum, Kat houseruled you to 8+Int. So, pick 8+Int (9+Int if human) skills you like, and put max ranks in them. Problem solved.

Some good picks, if you can't decide:

-Tumble (prime for melee fighters)
-Listen (can you hear me now?)
-Spot (I spy)
-Concentration (Diamond Mind key skill, excellent one)
-Use Magic Cheese Device (have magic, win D&D)
-Sexual Prowess (bow-chika-bow-wow)

After those, whatever you want. Knowledge skills or Appraise if you want to be a scholar, Bluff/Diplomacy/Sense Motive if you want to be a social monkey, anythng flavorful.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #257 on: August 08, 2010, 01:53:46 PM »
Listen and Spot are always good.

Sense Motive is always good.

We have no stealth-guy so far, I think, so you could probably get a lot of mileage out of hide/move silently.  Heal is frequently much handier than people give it credit for.

I would definitely suggest search/disable device/open lock. 

Gather Information is good.

You could actually get a lot of mileage by seeing what other skills are thoroughly covered, and taking the other ones.

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #258 on: August 08, 2010, 01:56:28 PM »
Oh yeah - Factotums get Trapfinding, so piling up on Search/Disable Device/Open Lock and being the party trapmonkey is another excellent combo. We're pretty well set for social 'faces', I think.

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #259 on: August 08, 2010, 02:42:51 PM »
If you have the old Ravenloft Campaign Setting, then Hypnosis is a really fun skill.  Autohypnosis has its benefits.  Oriental Adventures has some uses for Tumble at higher DCs.
One never gets skill points from int increase via items, do they?  Or how does that work again.
Not unless you're talking about one of those intelligence-boosting tomes.  But from a Headband of Intellect or some such?  No.

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #260 on: August 08, 2010, 02:47:42 PM »
Background! Wall of text inbound.

No one considered the birth of a baby boy in the Agnisan village of Rivercross to be anything exceptional. His parents were farmers like most of their neighbors, struggling night and day to eke out a subsistence living from the land’s wretched soil. Should he survive, the child would be another welcome set of hands, but at first no one gave him a second thought. Very quickly, though, it became apparent that something was very strange about this child. Just an infant, he did not have the scattered and aimless attention span of other babies his age, but focused intently and critically on everything in his vicinity; odd, but not worrisome. When he began to talk, though, whispers started, for he was forming full sentences while still unable to crawl. By the time he could walk, the toddler gave every impression of being just as smart as an adult, and unnaturally persuasive. He had a seemingly instinctive knack for knowing things, as if he could read the thoughts of those around him, and likewise bore a noticeable talent for getting people to agree with him or do things he wanted.
As he grew, his parents visibly became more and more withdrawn, falling deeper under the sway of their bizarre offspring, and the other villagers began to fear him. Tales were told that he was no human, but a changeling emplaced by fey spirits, or the human host for a malicious demon from the Netherrealms. The suspicion and distrust grew steadily, until it came to a head just as the boy was entering his teen years. A mob of angry, armed villagers surrounded the family’s house, and attempted to force their way inside. The parents stood in their way, having long since been reduced to mindless puppets of the boy, and savagely attacked the intruders with improvised farming tools. After butchering them, the remainder of the mob looked to the child.

The next morning, he was the only living person for miles, having watched the would-be murderers turn on each other in a crazed frenzy, massacre their friends and families who had stayed home, then kill themselves. He hadn’t meant to do it – all he wanted was for them to go away, to leave him alone. But they had built their bloodlust up too far, and when he shunted it away from his person, it had to go somewhere. They had sought to kill him for being different, for being better than they were. For being a superior creature, the next step up from humanity. They were lesser creatures, and so had deserved the fate they earned by seeking to strike him. The pawns that had raised him were cold and dead, useless, so he took what he could salvage and left. He made his way to the city, living off his carried supplies and scavenged supplements, all the while honing and focusing his inner power. It was the source of his superior nature, the reason he was better than anyone else, and it would be neglectful not to give such potential the attention it deserved. In the city, he lived as a parasite for some time, employing his persuasive talents and powers to sustain himself and deflect suspicion. It was not easy to do in a society where one’s value was based on one’s contributions, and occasionally he had to pack up and leave for a new home.

He was a man now, his power greater than ever before, and as he wrapped himself in his meditations, he felt the minds of others, different than before. Something in them called to him, a resonance that stretched for hundreds of miles, and so he called back. One by one, they arrived – first a handful, then a dozen or more, individuals with no connections or common ground save that they had abandoned their lives and livelihoods to make a mighty trek to his side, where they could serve him utterly. It was only proper that they do so, to recognize their natural superior. No longer in need to leech from unsuspecting providers, he now had obedient pawns to support him, and an assortment of women from which he could have his pick at will. It was doubtful that life could get any better…till she came. A tall, raven-haired beauty from Soldia, one glance and she had captured his heart like none of his other slaves could manage. More importantly, her psychic resonance was far more in tune with his own, an echo of the powers that he had mastered, but unconsciously bent into augmenting her considerable skill as a warrior. He was smitten, so she became his constant companion, and eventually his legal wife.

 By now, though, he had started to draw attention again. Whispers passed off the thin, strangely magnetic man who seemed to do nothing, but had dozens of people obedient to his every whim. They were weak and fearful, like the fools who had sought to burn him years ago, but had grown in age and maturity since then. He could have easily bent them to his will, but there was a limit to how many he could influence, less than those who told tales about him. So instead, he left. Gathering his flock around him, he travelled south, surrounded by a small army of warriors, craftsmen, and attendants. They migrated beyond the borders of Agnis, to the empty wilds that separated it from Palmeed and an empty stretch of land that he decided would be his. There, they stopped and built a mansion, then a compound, an isolated bastion of civilization singlemindedly focused on serving their master and his whims. Indeed, he had taken the Elven word for master as his surname, applying the same to his fortress – he was Lord Maestri, the noble title granted by himself and defended by his fanatical believers alongside his own psychic prowess.

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #261 on: August 08, 2010, 03:27:29 PM »
Glyph, that's spectacular.  And, with that, we're starting to get a theme going in this party.  Your more-than-human psychic, an angel, a nature spirit, and Ixy's character may be aspiring to godhood.  "More than human" seems to be a running thread.

Anyways, here's what I have for domain management rules.  I tried to keep them fairly simple.  I think.  Lemme know what y'all think.


Domain Management:
Everyone has land and personnel.  These are your most fundamental resources.

Land is measured in parcels.  One parcel is an arbitrary useful size for a community unit, and everyone begins with four parcels.

Meanwhile, personnel are usually measured in the combined challenge rating of the personnel assigned.  You may just want to go to the encounter calculator if you don't already know how to get CRs/encounter levels yourself.  (Note, this is encounter level, not party level, so plug your personnel in as monsters.)


Land:

Each parcel is rated in six aspects.  Agriculture, economy, culture, research, trade, and security, as well as a distance from the center of the province.  Each parcel is rated in each aspect on a scale from none to great, each multiplying the benefits from that parcel.  For example, if you have enough personnel assigned to farming a parcel to produce four units of food and it's of average quality for agriculture, you get twelve units of food.

Quality Multipliers:
None: x0
Poor: x1
Bad: x2
Average: x3
Good: x4
Great: x5

All PC parcels begin at poor in all categories except for security and trade, which start at bad, and have a distance of zero from the center of the province.  Teamwork is your friend.  Values may go up from there through various means.

Agriculture:
Agriculture represents the ability of the land to produce food needed to sustain personnel.  Each month, a single parcel produces a number of units of food equal to the combined challenge rating of the personnel farming it times the parcel's relevant quality multiplier.  One unit of food is enough to feed one of your personnel well for one month.

So a single level 1 follower farming a poor parcel produces one unit of food, enough to feed himself.  Eight level 1 followers farming that same parcel of land produce six units of food and go hungry.  One level 2 follower farming that parcel produces 2 units of food, enough to support himself and feed someone else.

Food may be accumulated for one month.  So, if you accumulate two excess food, you may use that in the next month.  However, it spoils after that, so you cannot accumulate food infinitely.

Economy:
Economy represents the suitability of the land to produce wealth, generally in the form of trade goods such as gems or textiles.  Each month, a single parcel produces a number of units of wealth equal to the combined challenge rating of the personnel working it times the parcel's relevant quality multiplier.  One unit of wealth is enough to pay one of your personnel well for one month.

Wealth may be accumulated infinitely.  Any excess wealth is stored in your coffers and never expires.

Culture:
Culture can represent many things and is rather abstract, but it represents the ease by which a parcel's occupants may be placated.  This placation can come from entertainment, the arts, evangelism, propaganda, or any number of means.  The exact nature of these means can be important, as using a religion to promote loyalty can turn around and bite you if you turn against that religion because your personnel are becoming followers.  Each month, a single parcel produces a number of units of culture equal to the combined challenge rating of the personnel working it times the parcel's relevant quality multiplier.  One unit of culture is enough to keep one of your personnel reasonably placated for one month.

Culture expires at the end of each month and cannot be accumulated.

Research:
Research is the level of arcane learning and production in a parcel and is used to create magic items.  Each month, a single parcel can produce a number of magic items whose total caster level is equal to the combined challenge rating of the personnel working it times the parcel's relevant quality multiplier.  These magic items must be specified at the beginning of the month and are completed at the end of the month.  They still cost 100% market price in gp.

In addition, research may be used to investigate certain phenomena that may be discovered during expansion and province maintenance, such as extraplanar portals and supernatural blights.

Levels of magic item production expire at the end of each month and cannot be accumulated.

Trade:
Trade represents access to foreign markets.  This is used to exchange one type of resource for another.  For example, you can trade one unit of food for one unit of culture, exporting shipments of food to pay for a visit from a gnomish circus, or trade wealth for levels of magic item production, paying dwarven scholars to help create magic items.  Security may be purchased, but not sold, and each unit of security purchased is treated as a single level 1 follower assigned to security in a location of your choice who does not consume food, wealth, or culture beyond what was traded to acquire its services.

Assets may be exchanged freely between PCs; however there is a limit to how much trade may occur between a province and an outside power.  Each month, a single parcel may trade a number of units of assets equal to the combined challenge rating of the personnel working it times the parcel's relevant quality multiplier.  This trade quota cannot be accumulated.

Also, trade may be used to purchase magic items.  Any number of magic items may be purchased at any time during the month, however the caster level of any such item cannot exceed the combined challenge rating of the personnel working it.  Also, these items cost more than market price, depending on the quality of the trade parcel.  Items purchased using a poor parcel cost 150% market price, and that amount decreases by 10% for every step above poor to a minimum of 110% for a great parcel.

It is also possible to initiate a trade festival, spending wealth to improve trade for a single month.  Every unit of wealth spent is treated as if there were an additional level 1 follower working in trade, allowing you to trade more resources and purchase higher-level items than normal for that month.

A parcel without access to a port or trade route, no matter how distant the access, has a trade quality rating of None.

Security:
Security represents the level of protection that a parcel enjoys.  The region is very dangerous, and weird things can happen, like a tribe of trolls deciding your castle would make a nice place to call home.  Security protects you from this.

Having security in even a single parcel can protect multiple parcels from events with a challenge rating less than or equal to the security's own challenge rating.  The quality multiplier does not function normally in this instance; rather, it's added to your security detail's challenge rating to determine total security.  So, two level 1 followers (CR2) on a parcel with a security rating of good (x4) is protected from unfortunate events with a CR of less than six.

The occurrence and CR of events is determined randomly and can become quite high.

Security in a single parcel applies to all parcels at the same distance from center, albeit at a -1 penalty.  Security also spreads out to more distant parcels, with an additional -1 penalty for every point of distance from center difference.  So, if you have a total security of 6 at DfC2, that applies a total security of 3 to a parcel at DfC4.

PCs may share security without penalty.

Multiple security details overlap; they do not stack.  Apply the best security detail for an area.

Distance from Center:
I have making maps.  Therefore, a parcel's location will be measured strictly linearly, using distance from the center of the kingdom.  This is just a number.  A parcel with a DfC of 10 is really far away from the center of the province.  Something with a DfC of 2 is pretty close.  This is mostly used for security spread.

Improving Land Quality:
As a leadership bonus, every PC selects a single attribute and all of their territory improves by one step with respect to that attribute.  So, if a PC is strong in trade, all their poor trading parcels become bad, all their bad trading parcels become average, and so on.  Generally, this attribute should be whatever makes sense for the character.  If the PC is some manner of nature spirit/guardian, agriculture makes the most sense.  For a merchant or artisan, economy or trade probably make the most sense.

Also, everyone's starting four parcels begin with one attribute that is one category better than the default.  This can be whichever you please, but applies to all four parcels, so if you choose to improve economy, then all your parcels begin with an economy rating of bad.  This can (and probably should) stack with your leadership bonus, so if you have a leadership bonus to agriculture and have better farmland, then you begin with four parcels of average quality for farming.  These improvements should generally be explained (for example, a gold mine improving economy, or resonance with a cult leader's dark powers for culture or research).

In addition, various keep upgrades can provide smaller bonuses to land performance.  These are not cast in stone; you'll have to argue for them yourself.  However, these tend to be less significant than a flat, unconditional +1 improvement to quality.  For example, a subterranean courtyard built to grow mushrooms for food (thus bypassing poor surface soil) can improve a parcel's agriculture from poor to bad, but this improvement cannot stack with any other improvement to agriculture.  Some upgrades may increase food output by 10% or reduce distance penalties for security.

Finally, events as the game progresses may permanently improve or damage parcels.  If your security is too weak to stop an event and you opt not to intervene personally, unfortunate things may happen, like a wave of undead infecting the land with necrotic blight, permanently reducing agriculture.  However, successfully resolving events can be beneficial, such as by recruiting earth elemental allies to improve security.

Format:
The format for a parcel is as follows.

[Name]
Aggriculture: [quality], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Economy: [quality], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Culture: [quality], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Research: [quality], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Trade: [quality], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Security: [quality], [CR]; [personnel assigned]
Distance from Center: [Distance]
Total Security: [CR], [Source]
Special: [Special]

For example:
Northwest Dwarfheim
Aggriculture: Poor, CR0, 0 food; None
Economy: Good, CR6, 29 wealth; 4 level 1, 2 level 2
Culture: Average, CR8, 24 culture; Elder Borris (level 8)
Research: Bad, CR0, 0 research; None
Trade: Great, CR7, 35; 10 level 1
Security: Great, CR0; None
Distance from Center: 0
Total Security: CR14, Central Dwarfheim
Special: Automated Forging (+5 wealth/month)


Labor:
To work your land, you need people; followers and cohorts granted via the Leadership.  Each one is assigned a single task (agriculture, economy, culture, research, trade, or security) on a single parcel and works that task for the month.  Personnel may be reassigned each month, moving to different tasks and/or different parcels.

One follower/cohort does not necessarily represent one person.  Rather, it represents one person of significance.  If you assign your 8th-level cohort to farm a parcel, they probably aren't single-handedly doing the work of more than a dozen farmers.  Rather, they're probably managing a team of inconsequential peasants.  Personnel come with children, spouses, and elders who do not necessarily count towards your personnel (nor do they count towards upkeep).

Multiple laborers may work the same parcel of land in multiple ways simultaneously.  You can have four followers farm while two mine and one sings all on the same plot if you so desire.

To maintain personnel properly, they each need one unit of food, one unit of wealth, and one unit of culture each month.  Thus, three first-level peasants on a completely average plot of land dividing their efforts between producing wealth, food, and culture can break even and sustain themselves.  Higher-level personnel are more efficient, as they require the same upkeep but produce greater output.  Your PC does not require upkeep.  If you take your cohort with you adventuring, she does not require upkeep, either.

If you fail to provide adequate food, wealth, or culture, you may risk rebellion and your Leadership score (and thus your supply of personnel) is reduced for the following month, until you can properly sustain your personnel.  Conversely, if you provide far more than your people need, the surplus can increase your Leadership score in subsequent months.  These increases and decreases only apply for the purposes of attracting followers, not for the purposes of determining your cohort's level, and stack with the +2 bonus you gain from having a stronghold.

The modifiers for either failing to meet or exceeding any given need are as follows, and stack for each need you either fail to meet or exceed:
4+/person: +2
2-3.9/person: +1
1-1.9/person: +0
.5-.9/person: -1
less/person: -2

Your supply of followers resets each month according to any change in your Leadership score that might occur.  Of course, if you go from one month to another without a change in your Leadership score or holdings, you can just keep your personnel assigned the same way.


Special:
Over the course of the game, various special allies, structures, and options may become available to you.  For example, after dealing with a tribe of trolls, you may have the option to recruit them, paying them food in exchange for added security.  Perhaps allying with a succubus will improve single parcel's cultural quality tremendously, but any personnel assigned to produce culture in that parcel are her personal thralls and cannot be reassigned (and may be used against you at a later date if you're not careful).  Perhaps you can recruit some ogres who add to your personnel and are able to use people for food in a pinch.  It can be anything, and taking advantage of such things are a primary means of getting ahead.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:52:02 PM by Katina Tarask »

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #262 on: August 08, 2010, 03:45:06 PM »
I believe that I get it.  Are our followers considered to be CR=level?

So, if I have 25 level one followers, that is 25 CR1 personnel to distribute?

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #263 on: August 08, 2010, 03:46:24 PM »
how many parcels can fit in one 'proximity ring' from our stronghold? We start with 4 - can all four be DfC (1), or would they be 1,2,3,4 units from the center respectively? Whoops.

Would a Luxury kitchen count as, say, a Culture boost for the good food its cooks produce?

Regarding production, I'm a bit confused by your example. 3 lvl 1 peasants would require a total of 3 food, 3 wealth, and 3 culture each month, wouldn't they? A total of 9 needed units, but they can only produce 3, so they're guaranteed a deficit. Oh, they're on Average land, never mind. Still, that leads to confusion, since with Poor ratings in everything to start, I don't think any of us can overcome the deficit....in fact ,the more followers we have, the worse it gets, because they add +3 to the total resources needed but can only contribute +1 to the production rate.

Also, will need to figure out some overlaps between the rules and where Thrallherd gets wonky. For example, my followers replace themselves within 24 hours normally, and they're not normally affected by how well I treat them. I suppose there's plenty of room for equivalencies though, except for the whole rebellion thing. For example, I don't need to placate my believers, and they don't need to be paid, but having culture can be helpful all the same to keep them enthusiastic and energetic, not just sluggish zombies that still need to eat and sleep (the possible result if I neglect them entirely). Similarly, what do I do regarding the fluctuating Leadership scores, since Thrallherd is normally unaffected by any modifiers save level and Charisma? Not trying to be a bother or cause more rules headaches, but there is just enough dissonance between my class feature and the basic Leadership rules to be confusing (I don't get a +2 for a stronghold, for instance, or any reputation modifiers).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:07:19 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #264 on: August 08, 2010, 03:48:13 PM »
All PC parcels begin at poor in all categories except for security and trade, which start at good, and have a distance of zero from the center of the province.  Teamwork is your friend.  Values may go up from there through various means.

*Bows*


Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #265 on: August 08, 2010, 04:09:43 PM »
Oh, did I say good security/trade?  Sorry, I meant bad.
I believe that I get it.  Are our followers considered to be CR=level?

So, if I have 25 level one followers, that is 25 CR1 personnel to distribute?
Yes, CR=level for individual followers.  However, you get diminishing returns if you assign lots of followers to do the same thing on the same piece of land.  One level 1 follower is CR1, but eight level 1 followers are CR6.
Would a Luxury kitchen count as, say, a Culture boost for the good food its cooks produce?
Well, the overall opulence of your keep could be a +10% to culture.
Also, will need to figure out some overlaps between the rules and where Thrallherd gets wonky. For example, my followers replace themselves within 24 hours normally, and they're not normally affected by how well I treat them. I suppose there's plenty of room for equivalencies though, except for the whole rebellion thing. For example, I don't need to placate my believers, but having culture can be helpful all the same to keep them enthusiastic and energetic, not just sluggish zombies that still need to eat and sleep (the possible result if I neglect them entirely). Similarly, what do I do regarding the fluctuating Leadership scores, since Thrallherd is normally unaffected by any modifiers save level and Charisma? Not trying to be a bother or cause more rules headaches, but there is just enough dissonance between my class feature and the basic Leadership rules to be confusing (I don't get a +2 for a stronghold, for instance, or any reputation modifiers).
Well, being far from civilization, we can say monthly renewal, same as everyone else.  Makes things simpler.

Also for simplicity's sake, I'd rather make your class feature work more like leadership.  You get the +2 from your stronghold, and the other standard bonuses and penalties.  Inadequate funds, food, or culture can reduce your Leadership score, which reduces your supply of thralls.  That means there are people breaking free of your control, and there is a chance of them being quite angry (hence rebellion) if you're not careful.

The reputation modifiers are pretty much being replaced outright.
Regarding production, I'm a bit confused by your example. 3 lvl 1 peasants would require a total of 3 food, 3 wealth, and 3 culture each month, wouldn't they? A total of 9 needed units, but they can only produce 3, so they're guaranteed a deficit. Oh, they're on Average land, never mind. Still, that leads to confusion, since with Poor ratings in everything to start, I don't think any of us can overcome the deficit....in fact ,the more followers we have, the worse it gets, because they add +3 to the total resources needed but can only contribute +1 to the production rate.
Did I mention this land sucks? :P

Some deficits aren't instant doom.  Your minions won't necessarily be happy, but they won't automatically seek to oust you because they're a bit short on pay.  Also, you can waive some of your first-level minions.

Your best bet to approach the necessary resources would be to get one aspect up to average, assign your cohort and higher-level minions to harvest that aspect, then trade with the other PCs.  A single level 8 cohort on average land can single-handedly collect 24 units of a resource.

You're still probably gonna be running deficits until you can figure out how to improve your land, though, and that's not an accident.

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #266 on: August 08, 2010, 04:18:09 PM »
As mentioned above, I definitely need a bit of clarification regarding how the math works, because as it stands, it seems impossible for us to sustain ourselves, let alone turn a surplus of anything.

For example, myself. I have 100 1st-level followers, 10 2nd level, 6 3rd level, 4 4th level, and 2 5th level believers. This totals to 122 people, with a combined level of 164. Unfortunately, they consume a total of 366 units of production per month (122 food, 122 culture, 122 wealth). With Poor Agriculture, just feeding everyone consumes almost my entire labor force, without any culture or wealth. If I upgrade all of my land to Bad Agriculture, I can feed my population with 61 units of production, but that leaves me with 103 producers and 244 units that need to be produced out of only Poor-grade land. If I apply my Leadership bonus to Agriculture too (despite Research being more suitable), I can feed everyone with 41 producer units, but then I'm still left with 123 production and that same 244 demand...no matter how I slice the bread, I'm still racking up a massive deficit in two categories, or a total deficit in one. And the problem gets worse the more my Leadership score goes up, because that means additional people to feed/pay/entertain at an average rate of 3x1 versus how much they contribute. The diminishing returns makes it even worse, because my ratio drops even further below 1-to-1 after 5 people on the same lot.

(Just that +2 from Stronghold alone brought my score from 20 to 22, adding 29 new bodies (consuming 81 units), but only capable of cranking out 37 units. Since I foolishly took Extra Followers, all those numbers are doubled (demand goes up by 162, supply goes up by 74).


I'm okay with modding Thrallherd to be more in line with standard leadership though, it makes things simpler. It does, however, mean I can't willfully and maliciously abuse my minions anymore, since the penalty for being a Bad Boss will stack up.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:31:33 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #267 on: August 08, 2010, 04:23:22 PM »
Hmm. 

If you send away the majority of your first-level followers, I think you can make it work.  :P

This is pretty brutal, and it's actually worse for you than for anybody.

I'm working on mine now, and I think I can minimize the deficit fairly effectively...

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #268 on: August 08, 2010, 04:24:51 PM »
Send them where? My total staff is about triple what I actually need to run my compound (though I don't want to have to redesign my fortress to compensate for the empty beds, I assumed I'd have to 'base' them all inside its perimeter).

Though, now that I think of it, this is almost encouraging me to stack negative penalties to my Leadership from being cruel and casually murdering followers for lulz, since it'll reduce my population faster than it'll reduce my production. And that'd bad.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:33:01 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline ff

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #269 on: August 08, 2010, 04:27:01 PM »
Taking a cue from economics, and for the sake of party interaction, and simplicy for myself:

Rather than everyone try to do everything (agriculture + trade + etc.), I would like to try to 'specialize' in one or two things with my char and followers, and then they trade the fruits of their labor for those of others. Mine might be druidy agriculture and healing specialists, and be short on building, for example.

btw if anyone else would like to sort of co-manage my followers, esp. if they are trading with their own, that is fine with me b/c 1. everyone else seems to be more 'up' on the 'd20 Management' stuff and 2. it induces more player-player interaction.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:28:18 PM by ff »

Offline ff

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #270 on: August 08, 2010, 04:32:36 PM »
If we have any clerics, or 5th+ level followers, perhaps they should cast Create Food and Water every day.

Effect:   Food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 24 hours

If any PC is a 10th level cleric, that's 30 followers per day for 1 of your 3rd level spells.

As an command word item it would be 360 x 3 x 5 = 5400 gp for 1/day at CL 5th (15 people). 

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #271 on: August 08, 2010, 04:34:15 PM »
Money's a solution, but I think we all spent our wealth on equipment and building a fort.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #272 on: August 08, 2010, 04:34:20 PM »
Rygel Thrax is the Arch-Dean.  His domain-wide bonus applies to Culture (in the form of education) because that is the primary output of his budding University.  Further, I'll also be applying the initial parcel bonus to Culture in all cases, due to classrooms, libraries, etc.

Residential Zone
Agriculture: [Poor x2], [5], [10]; [5x CR1]
Economy: [Poor x1], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Culture: [Average x3], [5], [15]; [5x CR1]
Research: [Poor x1], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Trade: [Bad x2], [], []; []
Security: [Bad x2], []; [personnel assigned]
Distance from Center: 0
Total Security: [CR], [Source]
Special: Underground Mushroom Farm, non-stackable Agriculture Bonus

Dockside
Agriculture: [Poor x1], [3], [3]; [1x CR3]
Economy: [Poor x1], [], []; []
Culture: [Average x3], [5], [15]; [5x CR1]
Research: [Poor x1], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Trade: [Bad x2], [], []; []
Security: [Bad x2], [CR]; [personnel assigned]
Distance from Center: 0
Total Security: [CR], [Source]
Special:

Classrooms
Agriculture: [Poor x1], [4], [4]; [2x CR2]
Economy: [Poor x1], [], []; []
Culture: [Average x3], [9], [27]; [Kayla the Archivist]
Research: [Poor x1], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Trade: [Bad x], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Security: [Bad x2], [CR]; [personnel assigned]
Distance from Center: 0
Total Security: [CR], [Source]
Special:

Work Area
Agriculture: [Poor x1], [5], [5]; [5x CR1]
Economy: [Poor x1], [], []; []
Culture: [Average x3], [5], [15]; [5x CR1]
Research: [Poor x1], [CR], [Output]; [personnel assigned]
Trade: [Bad x2], [], []; []
Security: [Bad x2], [CR]; [personnel assigned]
Distance from Center: 0
Total Security: [CR], [Source]
Special:

Total Output
Food: 22 +33%
Wealth: 0 +10%
Culture: 72 +10%
Research:

Trade:
Available Trade:

Trades Made:


Monthly Totals
Food: 29
Culture: 79

Usage:
Food: 0 (Create Food & Water)
Wealth: -29
Culture: -29

Surplus/Deficit:
Food: 29
Wealth: -29
Culture: +50

Modifiers Due to Rationing
Food: +1
Wealth: -2
Culture: +1

Available for trade:
21 Culture
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 10:10:13 PM by WyzardWhately »

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #273 on: August 08, 2010, 04:36:12 PM »
Kat said our Security and Trade are actually Bad, not Good. So that's going to really hurt your trade ratios...

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #274 on: August 08, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »
Taking a cue from economics, and for the sake of party interaction, and simplicy for myself:

Rather than everyone try to do everything (agriculture + trade + etc.), I would like to try to 'specialize' in one or two things with my char and followers, and then they trade the fruits of their labor for those of others. Mine might be druidy agriculture and healing specialists, and be short on building, for example.

btw if anyone else would like to sort of co-manage my followers, esp. if they are trading with their own, that is fine with me b/c 1. everyone else seems to be more 'up' on the 'd20 Management' stuff and 2. it induces more player-player interaction.

Holy shit, I am stupid.  That is *exactly* what we should be doing.  Trade between PCs is free.  I'll provide culture.  One of y'all figure out how to provide food, one person do Wealth, one person puts their cohort on Security Detail and we'll all be safe from anything that isn't HUGELY SCARY, etc.