Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Basically Full)

[WyzardWhately]

Damn, your leadership score must be hugely higher than mine...or is this that thrallherd thing?

Anyway.  Do we need to earn the modifiers (Great renown, special power, fairness and generosity) in play, or can we start with any?

I have a tiny bit of backtory already:
My character's lyre of building is reskinned as a guitar-like instrument.  It uses bound lightning-elementals to power its mighty magics. 

One day, my character led his small band of loyal followers into the wilderness.  He would not speak to them of what he planned, but they were trusting and they built a campsite and waited.  For a month and more, they were patient during his repeated castings Wall of Stone, and his requests that they cut down every tree in the area and stack the logs to dry.  One night, he told them to camp some distance away from the site, and they did so, wondering now what would happen.

That night, he produced his Guitar of Building, and played a thunderous tune.  Electrical energy crackled all around and into the sky, as he played from sundown to sunup without rest.  His followers cowered in their camp at the deep rumblings in the earth and the echoing wail of his epic guitar solo.

When the sun dawned, it did so on an entire complex of buildings, the heart of a new city.  A city he had built in one night, a city he had built on rock and roll.

[TheGlyphstone]

My Leadership score is only 20. Thrallherd helps, because class levels in it count twice towards your score, but the majority of them is from my Extra Followers feat that doubles the size of my following/herd.

Also, awesome story.

Building my stronghold now - I don't anticipate any issues with buying, say, a 'Fancy Study' and having it instead be a small, private dining room? My character's not going to lower himself to eat with the normals, and I don't need an entire 30-seat dining hall to myself. Likewise, getting a 'Magic Laboratory' as a meditation room, for the same mechanical benefits translated to psionics?

[WyzardWhately]

So, yeah...

I have Fabricate, Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Telekinesis...I don't have Fly, but I can innately Fly, so that's probably even better.  I have a Guitar of Building.  I have Craft: Stonework, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering, and Perform, so I can actually use Fabricate & the Guitar to do fancy stuff.

What's all this going to do to my costs?  The SBG doesn't make reference to how a Lyre of Building works, but I'm supposed to be able to use it to raise buildings up.  Ruling?

And, again, I am willing to lend my character's aid to the other PCs.

[Aether]

I started the task of putting my character together last night and am like, omg...  There is so much going on here.  And then I need to build a stronghold too and assign at least part of my followers to the higher rankings, and a cohort that leads them in my absence...

What book do I need for strongholds, btw?  SBG doesnt say anything to me...

[TheGlyphstone]

So, yeah...

I have Fabricate, Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Telekinesis...I don't have Fly, but I can innately Fly, so that's probably even better.  I have a Guitar of Building.  I have Craft: Stonework, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering, and Perform, so I can actually use Fabricate & the Guitar to do fancy stuff.

What's all this going to do to my costs?  The SBG doesn't make reference to how a Lyre of Building works, but I'm supposed to be able to use it to raise buildings up.  Ruling?

And, again, I am willing to lend my character's aid to the other PCs.

Check page 45. The Lyre gives you cheap or free labor depending on how frequently you play it (15% to 30% off all costs). Beware, though - Hewn Stone walls are crazy expensive, even with a 15% discount from being able to cast Wall of Stone. The Fly/Telekinesis doesn't actually help unless you're building a stronghold at least 3 stories tall. Fabricate is actually worthwhile though.

Here's the numbers I'm using:
-Hilly or Plains Terrain = 5% off
-Temperate Climate = 0% off
-78-112 miles from Large City = 1% off
-Lawless Area = 10% off
-CR18 Monster Lair = 6% off
-3 CR17 supports = 3% off
-Free Labor (if you can play for 2 hours/week) = 30% off
-Being able to cast Fabricate = variable

Total base Discount = 60% off all Basic or untyped components and all walls, 75% off all Fancy components, 75% off Hewn Stone walls with Wall of Stone available.

@Aether: The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (SBG).

[Katina Tarask]

Actually, SBG does reference Lyre of Building, in its section on ways to use various magic items for your stronghold.  I believe it replaces conventional labor if you can use it long enough.

For the various leadership modifiers, let's just say you get the +2 for having a stronghold and ignore the rest for simplicity's sake.

Glyph: Those modifications are fine, and you'll need your minions to do such mundane tasks as mining, farming, trading, or making stuff.

Aether: You can completely abstract your followers and cohorts, without ever statting any of them if you want.  Though the stronghold may be a bit daunting.

[TheGlyphstone]

Works for me.

I'm up to 24,745 spent so far, and I've got my entire 29-space stronghold built and mapped out, including a masonry perimeter wall. Maybe I'll make the wall taller, or dig out some underground spaces...gotta have room to store prisoners, after all. Or I'll look into the Extras section - my stronghold is made of wood, I should probably buy a Decanter of Endless Water for starters.

Edit to above...live in the lap of luxury, because, somehow, being able to cast Fabricate with all our other discounts nets a 105% price reduction on Luxury-level stronghold spaces. Going to call it 95% instead, because my brain can't wrap around the concept of earning money by building a 5-star hotel that hosts millions. I am, however, going to splurge and buy myself the very best furnishings in every category, as only suitable for someone so obviously superior to the rest of the universe.
EDIT EDIT: But then, luxury components are so much more expensive to start with that I didn't actually save any money with the upgrades, I just get to live in sinful opulence now instead of mere wealth and splendor. Works for me.

[Katina Tarask]

Shouldn't you need at least masterwork-level Craft skills to get the luxury-level fabrication benefits?  After all, you can't do it yourself if you lack the skills to do it yourself.

[TheGlyphstone]

Psychic Reformation also lets you retrain skill points. I get 13 skill points/level, at least from levels 6-10 - so when the stronghold was built, I did have those ranks in Craft, in multiple categories. You poor zombies who can't rearrange your histories at will might have issues though. :) On the other hand, I'm broke down to the last penny paying for it.


Anyways, my stronghold is finally built, mapped, staffed, and equipped. Cost me 1,032 of my own personal funds in the end, because I forgot to stock my library.

[WyzardWhately]

Shouldn't you need at least masterwork-level Craft skills to get the luxury-level fabrication benefits?  After all, you can't do it yourself if you lack the skills to do it yourself.

My craft bonus is +13, I can take ten and get masterwork.  Either I am getting the math wrong, or this stronghold stuff is way more expensive than I thought it was....  Let me gin up a brief example of my understanding so someone can help me out if I'm screwing up, before I go any further.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'll bet you have it right. Strongholds are crazy expensive, even with free wooden walls.

[WyzardWhately]

Ignoring the site modifiers for now...

Let's say I start out wanting a Fancy Residential Cluster.

That has a base cost of 66,400.

I have no labor costs -30%
and can fabricate it all -20%
Except the servant's quarters (+80GP)

That puts this at -50%, so 33,280 GP

Then, I have to go to chapter 2 and buy walls.  This stronghold takes up 15 SS.  To keep the math simple, I'll have both interior and exterior walls be the same Hewn Stone.  I can get -5% for stone shape, -15% for wall of stone, and -30% for the Guitar.  That's -50%, so they'd cost 3k per SS.  15kx3=45,000 GP to have the whole thing made out of stone, in addition to what I'm paying for the components themselves.

Now, my further understanding is that Hewn Stone is free if the place is *underground.*  So, I can negate all wall costs by simply digging the whole thing out of the living earth, right?  (I love you, magical imaginary workers that come from my guitar!)

That would also neatly explain the Hidden from Observation site modifier I'm taking, because the site would have very little in the way of above-ground components.  I figure that what I can do is make nice, thick skylights out of big blocks of polished quarts (Stoneshaped together from smaller pieces, Fabricated to shape and bring to a high polish) so that it will actually be well-lit and not full of fungus and mildew.

[Katina Tarask]

Fungus is your friend in a subterranean fortress.  Unclaimed fertile land is rare.  Subterranean mushroom and lichen farming can be a viable food source.

[WyzardWhately]

Here is my character sheet:

Rygel Thrax
Astral Deva 10 + Wizard 9/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
Chaotic Neutral
Speed 50/Fly 75 Good,  Darkvision 60, Low-light vision

Attributes:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 18
Int  20 (22)
Wis 16
Cha 18

Combat Block:
HP: 108
AC: 21 (+9 Natural, +2 Dex), 27 with Greater Mage Armor
Fortitude: +9/13 (+17 v. Poison) Reflex:+7/11  Will: +11/15
Melee: +10/+5 Ranged:+9/+4 Initiative: +6

Languages: Common, Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Abyssal, Fey, Undercommon, Giant

Skills: 157 ranks
Perform: 10 (Stringed Instruments)
Sexual Prowess: 10 (Creative Lover, Inventive Lover, Intuitive Lover, Delay Orgasm, Talk Dirty, Easy to Read, Greedy Lover, Enduring Lover, Quick Recovery, Teasing Lover)
Spellcraft  12 (+20)
Concentration 13
Knowledge: Arcana 12
Knowledge: Nature 12
Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering 12
Knowledge: Dungeoneering 12
Knowledge: The Planes 12
Knowledge: Religion 12
Bluff 10
Diplomacy 10
Sense Motive 12
Craft: Stonework 8
Listen +4
Spot +4

Feats:
Spell Focus: Abjuration
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
Skill Focus: Spellcraft
Improved Initiative
+
Scribe Scroll
Summon Familiar
Extend Spell
+
Landlord
Leadership

Equipment:
450 GP
Longsword
Bedroll
1 wk normal rations
Signet Ring
Bottle of Wine
Noble’s Outfit + 100 GP Jewelry
Adventurer’s Outfit
Spell Component Pouch
-
Heward’s Handy Haversack
Guitar of Building
Headband of Intellect +2
Cloak of Resistance +4
250 GP Diamond Dust

Magic!
Cantrips: Mending, Light, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic

1st Level, DC 17 6/day: Alarm, Endure Elements, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Identify, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat, Comprehend Languages, Fist of Stone,

2nd Level, DC 18, 6/day: Scorching Ray, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Blindness/Deafness, Rope Trick, Detect Thoughts, Command Undead

3rd Level, DC 19, 4/day: Greater Mage Armor, Sign of Sealing, Magic Circle, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Protection from Energy, Suggestion, Shivering Touch, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form

4th Level, DC 20, 4/Day: Bestow Curse, Enervation, Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Stone Shape

5th Level, DC 21, 3/Day: Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Wall of Stone, Fabricate, Hold Monster, Cone of Cold, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Telekinesis

Special Class Abilities:
Unimpeachable Abjuration +1
Warding 1/day
Red Veil

Racial Abilities:
Never flat-footed or flanked
Immune to Electricity & Petrification
Resistance Cold 10, Fire 10
Tongues
Protective Aura: MCAL +4, Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Spell Resistance 20
DR 5/+1
Spell-like Abilities, CL 7:
Discern Lies, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Polymorph Self, 1/day
cure light wounds and see invisibility 7/day
At-Will: aid, continual flame, detect evil, dispel magic, invisibility sphere (centered on self only), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear,

Leadership:
25x 1st-level
2x 2nd-level
1x 3rd-Level
1x Cohort.  Kayla is his perpetually cheerful but long-suffering assistant.  She is a ninth-level Archivist, and is probably a Necropolitan. 


The Stronghold
Rygel has dreamed of establishing a University out in the dangerous wilds.  He has sketched out in his mind great libraries, training grounds, crowds of students, courtyards and orchards, amphitheatres...he can't afford any of that stuff right now.  So, he has started the basic core of what will eventually be a much larger complex.  His long-term goal is to attract high-quality teachers, and to offer courses of study in raw badassery.  Arcane and Divine magic, psionics, the Sublime Path, etc.  Graduates of his university will be fully-prepared PCs, ready to go forth and wreck shop across the world...and hopefully send back money as successful alumni.  This will be a vast project requiring a huge investment of time and resources, but Rygel is near-immortal by human standards.


Site Modifiers:
CR 18 + 3x CR 17 -9%
Temperate Forest
Site in Lawless Area -10%
Nearby River to west +4%
Nearby Mountain to north +4%
Nearby Potential Income Source +5% (Rich mining stuff in nearby mountain)
Site Modifier: Large City 70 Miles Downriver -1%
Site Hidden from Observation +5%
=Total Site Modifiers: -2%

Rygel picked his spot carefully.  It's close to a river, for protection and transport.  There is a mountain to the north, making that approach difficult and providing access to a mine (well, once he clears the monsters out...)  He's distant enough from a city to be mostly under their radar.  The thick forests in the area help camouflage his base - you'd have to damn near literally stumble over it.

There is a megadungeon with several entrances and associated aboveground complex of ruins not too far to the East. The ruling monsters on the 17th & 18th dungeon levels are of appropriate CR to that depth.  Eventually, the upper levels of that will be a spectacular place for field trips & other exercises for the students (The Arch-Dean needs more goblins for his experiments!  Who wants extra credit?)

Layer 1: Above-Ground: A forested area abutting a cove in the river 2,963 GP
Basic Dock
Gatehouse + Iron Portcullis. 
2,250 - 35% for free labor and Fabricate
Cost: 1463. 
Walls: I figure that the dock doesn't actually have walls (please correct me if I'm wrong) because it's...a dock.  The Gatehouse is hewn stone, but only covers 1/2 SS.  3k-50% (Guitar, Stone Shape, Wall of Stone)
Cost: 1500

Layer 2: First Subterranean Level: Home Sweet Home 43700 GP
Residential Cluster: Components: Fancy bedrooms (10), fancy kitchen, fancy dining hall, fancy bath, servants’ quarters; Size: 15 stronghold spaces; Cost: 66,400 gp.
I have no labor costs -30%, and can fabricate it all -20%, Except the servant's quarters (+80GP), and it's all in an area with Hewn Stone walls, so -5%.  That puts this at -55%, so TOTAL: 29,960 GP.
Wizard's Research Cluster: Fancy alchemical laboratory, fancy library (includes books on arcana, general knowledge, and the planes), fancy magic laboratory, fancy office Size: 4 stronghold spaces; Cost: 16,500 gp.  I've removed the servant's quarters from this area, in order to place them elsewhere.  -55% (Guitar, Stone Shape in Hewn Stone area, Fabricate.) TOTAL: 7425
Facilities:
Fancy Auditorium + Fancy Common Area: 5000 GP -55% = TOTAL: 2250
Extra Servant's Quarters 400 - 40% = TOTAL: 240
Extra Fancy Study (for Kayla) 2,500-55% = TOTAL: 1125
The Shop: 2 Fancy Workspaces, 1 Fancy Smithy 6000 - 55%= 2700

Layer 3: Second Subterranean Level: The Mushroom Farm 3240GP
Six Basic Courtyards: 3000 GP + 2400 GP Depth Surcharge. 
5400 GP -40% (Fabricate, Guitar, Stone Shape) = TOTAL 3240 gp.

Total cost = 49,903
- 2% Site Modifier
48,905

[WyzardWhately]

I think we had an artificer who was going to give us a discount on one magic item.  In my case that would be the Cloak of Resistance, which is fairly expensive. 

So, if I want to farm fungus underground...the component to use would probably be a Courtyard?

Additional question: Do I need to take Species Focus: Humanoids from the Unlawful Carnal Knowledge book, since my character isn't actually human?

[Katina Tarask]

Courtyard works.

Please put your sheet on Myth Weavers or some equivalent.

No need for Species Focus.  Being an angel is close enough.

[WyzardWhately]

Okay, I've added my stronghold...I'd appreciate it someone would look over it and make sure I'm not screwing up or omitting significant discounts.  Remember, anyone who wants free labor or spellcasting that Rygel can provide, I'm willing to go quid pro quo on that stuff. 

I'll do the mythweavers thing soon, preferably after people have had a chance to call me out on any errors.

[PhantomPistoleer]

WORKING ON IT!  Shap!

Lord Elwyn Balrog Red Knight of Soldia You have never heard of Balrog?  There are few who can say the same.  You must not be from Soldia, for truly, the utterance of his name has long been very bitter upon the Soldian tongue.  He is an ingenious bastard, a powerful warlord, a master of the anvil, an intrepid adventurer and the leader of the Wartower Wardens in the desert of Ram, between the nations of Almis and Soldia.  He is also a traitor to the crown.  But it is best not to mention him just now. Instead, let us speak of that large dungeon complex that his powerful retinue of wardens guard.  It is vast and ancient, built by hands that are not our own.  For what purpose?  No one knows.  But secrets abound within its structure, and with them, great treasure!  He welcomes any who brave the dungeon's depths, as long as they oblige a few rules.  But one must wonder if Balrog maintains his stronghold there to tax adventurers, or to keep whatever is in that dungeon within?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=230165


Full Name:
Elwyn Fennewith Balrog of Soldia

Aliases:
Warden, Master Warden, Lord Balrog, the Dragon, the Traitor of Seven Falls, the Enlightened Tremor, formerly Knight of the Anvil, Reaper of the Word

Citizenship:
Soldia (Revoked)

Origin:
Balrog is the youngest son of Sir Edgewith Balrog, Noble Knight of Soldia.  He was educated at the military academy, and served with distinction afterward as a combat engineer.  On his numerous leaves during peace time, Balrog became a distinguished dungeoneer.  He has traveled throughout the six nations, leading expeditions into some of the most famous and deadly dungeons known to man.  This, coupled with his enormous acquisition of knowledge, was enough to grant him knighthood.

Occupation:
Adventurer, Guild Leader; Formerly White Knight, Combat Engineer

Group Affiliation:
Wartower Wardens, formerly the Soldian Military

Powers:
Superior Intelligence, Master Magical Crafter, Low-Level Magician, Low-Level Healing

History:

Cohort: 
Sena Lieger, Marshall 1/Cleric 2/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3;  equipped to grant +10 bonus to Intelligence and Intelligence-based skills with Marshall's Aura.  Picture here:  http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/193/5/0/Emma_Frost_by_AdamHughes.jpg

[Ixy]

Hey guys-- I'm sorry to sound dense, but have you guys decided on a DM or game type?

[WyzardWhately]

Hey guys-- I'm sorry to sound dense, but have you guys decided on a DM or game type?

Katina is running.  Level 10 Gestalt, plus some power-increasing house rules (36 point buy, max HP, all skills considered in-class.)

All PCs receive Leadership & Landlord feats for free.

There's a homebrew world, and the gist of it is roughly that we're all out trying to build a new civilization in the wilderness.

[WyzardWhately]

Phantom Pistoleer:  If you're still making magic items for people, I seem to recall a mention that artificers can create items of higher caster level than their character level?  My cloak of Resistance is CL12, 16k GP.

If not, the Lyre of Building is my next-most-expensive object, at 13k.

[PhantomPistoleer]

And the Master Warden creates your Cloak.

XP is 2.4K; GP is 6K, putting it at 8.4K.    You are welcome!

[WyzardWhately]

And the Master Warden creates your Cloak.

XP is 2.4K; GP is 6K, putting it at 8.4K.    You are welcome!

Don't forget to apply a no-labor discount to your stronghold.

It's good to know people. 

[Katina Tarask]

PP: Looks good.

Hey guys-- I'm sorry to sound dense, but have you guys decided on a DM or game type?

Wyz got the gist of it.

I'm DMing.  The idea is to start a nation in my own loosely defined homebrew world.  Pretty much all the good land's been taken, so you're pretty much starting out nestled between a blight-infested necrotic disaster area and a portal to Hell (or other such cosmic-scale scars on reality), making it rather difficult to carve out a home.  Everyone starts out with a castle and minions with which to found their nation.

[ff]

Since my character is not very building optimized (and I know zero about it and don't have SBG), it occurs to me that the basis of economics is that, after all, one person can trade what they can do well for what someone else can do well. So maybe my character can offer some sort of other services in exhchange for others playing the Lyre of Building or whatever it is.

I was also thinking of a very low tech stronghold (like a druid grove / treehouses) since it fits her theme, and I know I'm not gonna be able to invest the knowhow/optimization for building (an aspect of the game I was totally unaware of until this thread) that others are whipping out.