You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 06, 2016, 04:07:29 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?  (Read 9848 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #125 on: November 15, 2009, 07:48:26 PM »
Well let's see..

How much do we still spend on Germany and Japan? How much do we pay any of the oh.. dozen or so countries we have forces in every year?


Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #126 on: November 15, 2009, 09:23:31 PM »
How much do we still spend on Germany and Japan? How much do we pay any of the oh.. dozen or so countries we have forces in every year?
      How or whether that leads back to desirable policy about Israel is the open question.  I'm not sure just how this helps but since you ask and I'm curious...  I don't see a neat table on Google right away, but here are some sample figures.  If you'll deal with some of the off the cuff sources (Japan Times, German embassy) -- but they cite involved US sources.  And some of these go back a few years in details, but assuming the overall structure hasn't shifted...

     I was honestly Googling for the US budget spent on foreign bases (and avoiding Wikipedia). Had a hard time finding a clear "bases"-type price tag from Germany for some reason...  (That is the kind of thing that one should get from a simple search of EUCommand's site -- but no.)  But I think the figures about relative contributions of various countries must be somehow pertinent when Odin's earlier claim was that Japan and Germany were being "restrained" from a military role.  If that is so clearly still the case, are we also extorting Japan into paying for it?

2004(ish?) relative contributions. http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/2591/1/145/
Quote
According to the 2004 annual U.S. Department of Defense report on contributions by 27 allies to the common defense, in 2002 in Japan, where 42,000 U.S. personnel are stationed, the government paid 4.4 billion dollars, or 52% of all contributions by all U.S. allies. Germany where 72,000 U.S. soldiers are stationed, paid 18 percent of the total.
2003 Germany and others. http://www.heritage.org/research/europe/hl782.cfm
Quote
Today, Germany contributes 21 percent to our basing. Japan and Saudi Arabia cover approximately 80 percent. Italy contributes 37 percent. In a relatively new agreement, the Korean government has pledged to increase its contributions from approximately 41 percent to 50 percent of stationing costs by 2004.
2003 Germany. http://fluglaerm-kl.saar.de/dl/American_bases_in_Germany_fs.pdf
Quote
Ramstein Air Base, the biggest U.S. base in Germany, costs about $1 billion annually—an amount equal to Germany's yearly contribution toward the upkeep of U.S. bases.  On average, the other 43 bases cost about $240 million each about the same as a single F/A-22 fighter jet. ([cite for both] Council on Foreign Relations, 2003)
2007 Germany. http://www.state.gov/t/pm/64768.htm
Quote
In FY 2007, the Department of State authorized the export of defense articles and services [to Germany] valued at $3,049,581,409.
  (If that actually includes much of what one is looking to count, and not too many things one is not.)

2002 Japan. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080325i1.html
Quote
According to a 2004 report by the U.S. Department of Defense, Japan contributed direct financial support worth $3.23 billion and indirect support worth $1.18 billion in fiscal 2002, which offset as much as 74.5 percent of the total costs for the U.S. to station its forces in Japan.
December 2008 Japan. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=59656
Quote
The Japanese government has decided to allocate $689 million during the next fiscal year for projects related to realigning U.S. forces in Japan.
(Emphasis mine: This is a new cost.  Planned relocation of Okinawa-based troops etc.)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 11:57:18 PM by kylie »

Offline Elven Sex Goddess

  • All doorways lead to adventure.
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Location: In the mind's canvas of life's eroticism.
  • Gender: Female
  • "Imagination is the fruit of sensuality"
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #127 on: November 15, 2009, 10:09:34 PM »
Here is some measuring sticks for if Germany and Japan are still being restrained.   With the IMF, International Monetary Fund.    The world organization that gives out loans to third world nations.  The Untied States is at the top in percentage of voting.  The next two are in order Japan and Germany over every other country. Which includes China, Russia, Great Britain and France.   All of which were on the winning side of World War 2. 

As for the military being held down.  The German military/defense is ranked 7th in the world while Japan is ranked 9th in the world.   As you see in the link provided.   

http://www.globalfirepower.com/


Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2009, 11:50:57 PM »
     
     Well, in absolute terms, the US outspends the next few dozen countries combined...  I forget what the exact number was, but it seems easier to argue the US is holding most everybody down -- never mind whatever all they each did in the past.  It's more an indicator of hegemony than any specific claim of justice. 

     Besides which, I don't see how much of this really translates into a coherent argument about Israel.  So this will probably be the last statistics I feed into the defense balance talk... At least, unless something clearly inaccurate or more focused emerges.


http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/fy09_dod_request_global/
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 11:55:50 PM by kylie »

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2009, 01:51:30 AM »
That kind of money is not to create peace or ensure national security, it is for dominance.

if 1/4 of that was spent giving money to projects that appease previous issues concerning past unwarrented involvement America would get 10 times the bang for their buck on peace and security for American civilians.

Staggering inst it.

Offline Cythieus

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2009, 01:57:15 AM »
Here is some measuring sticks for if Germany and Japan are still being restrained.   With the IMF, International Monetary Fund.    The world organization that gives out loans to third world nations.  The Untied States is at the top in percentage of voting.  The next two are in order Japan and Germany over every other country. Which includes China, Russia, Great Britain and France.   All of which were on the winning side of World War 2. 

As for the military being held down.  The German military/defense is ranked 7th in the world while Japan is ranked 9th in the world.   As you see in the link provided.   

http://www.globalfirepower.com/



That's because they depend mostly on others for defense. I have talked to people in Germany about this, Japan was just allowed its first Battle Ship in years, I don't know how they measure fire power, but I would say that I don't trust that Japan is more powerful than China and Britain, that doesn't even sound right.

Articles about restrictions:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/07/MN115813.DTL

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/world/asia/23iht-23japan.6776834.html

http://www.idsa.in/TWIR/8_1_2009_Japan1

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_military_restrictions_did_the_Treaty_of_Versailles_impose_on_Germany

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/former-axis-nations-abandon-post-world-war-ii-military-restrictions/

As for the hundreds of Billions you're talking about going to Israel, I still don't care, we pay a lot of money to other nations all of the time. If it helps keep an ally safe I could care less. Palestine picked the losing side in a war and they're reaping the benefit of bad choices. Maybe they will learn or maybe they'll keep giving the Israelis good excuses to attack them.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 02:00:06 AM by Odin »

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2009, 02:30:37 AM »
Odin this is not a hot idea. When Germany was about the crumble they begged the west to invade Germany and not the Russians (Because of very bad blood between them in the past).  Rubbing salt into a wound just adds more bitterness to the world and increases the chances of extreme options or ruthlessness directed to the aggressors way when who has been on the receiving end has options otherwise.

As Ghandi said "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

Those who are getting "punished" now are not the ones that choose sides in WWII.
Different people.

Quote
"Maybe they will learn or maybe they'll keep giving the Israelis good excuses to attack them. "

"They ?"

Somehow this sentence implies that attacks of Israel are all government excersises.
They are not ! Their government doesn't control individuals that do these things.

If Israelis level suburbs and kill families of INNOCENTS ...

This environment makes individuals left wish to seek means of vengence now all their dreams are ruined - if their lovers their family their shops their income is all gone - some can rebuild their lives - some don't - some seek vengeance - those that seek vengeance do things that effect innocents - the problem with suciside bombings is the villain is already dead - the effected culture still is angry and can not inflict vengeance of the culprit - so choose to inflict it to what they beleive is the culprits culture and kin.... innocents !

Palestine as a government CAN'T do more - they CAN'T give more there is no place they can. They can run about appealing to everyone to stop (they may not want to)... but it Palestinian individuals that choose to do these things ... (yes in the past Palestine's government military wing did try and launch an assult however considering what was happening within "their nation" .. it was justified to the palestinian government - Isreal was a threat and agressive towards direct palestinian intersts)

Its Israels government that can do more (and America frankly)

Oh odin ! Please reconsider this stance. This is like saying "maybe America could learn or they will keep giving X and Y and Z good reasons to seek to repeat 9/11."

After 9/11 America attacked what it thought was a cause (right or wrong) what if after that retaliatory attack the "else" bit America back ... then America bit them back
then the "else" grew to more nations and hit america back ...

Attitudes like that invite escalation, and warm otherwise neutral nations towards the side of your enemies. This attitute doesnt serve anything other than justifying warefare-orientated economies with war orientated cultures.

Offline Cythieus

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2009, 02:42:37 AM »
Sorry, those being punished now are the ones who two years ago voted Hamas into their government and then fired at Israli civillians over and over. They refers to the Palestinians, who as a people voted for Hamas. The same way we're blamed for voting Bush into office, they're blamed for this. There's no innocent because if you cast the ballot for Hamas you cast one for your own hardships because of what they cause and what they stand for.


Offline Sydonai

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2009, 04:29:55 AM »
and you think Israel is the saint here when they were the very cause of this 4 decades of grief and suffering inflicted upon the weak and angry Palestinians? think again, the rocket attack did not happen after Hamas took over, it happens well before that together with the suicide bombings etc. The rocket attacks of Hamas are not the cause, it is the result of Israel's tyranical and oppresive rule towards the Palestinians, during the Gaza war, have you ever heard of Palestinian civilians shot and killed even after waving white flags? http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/13/israel-investigate-white-flag-shootings-gaza-civilians

Did you also know that Palestinians were denied of their basic rights to even the most basic and simplest form of natural resources, water? http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/water/water_war_leaves_palestinians_thirsty.htm

and did you also know that Palestinian who had lived for so long in their own lands would have their houses destroyed, just so that Israel can continue on with their illegal settlement program? http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=110326&sectionid=351020202

The reason why the UN favors the Palestinian so much is because what appears here is so miniscule compared to the true horrors faced by Palestinians every single day when their homes, their lands, their loved ones and even their basic rights were forcibly taken away from them and guess what? surprised! these all happens well even before Hamas was voted to power, here's the reason why Hamas was voted instead of the traditional Fatah: http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/jhalper.htm. Ooh! ooh! and guess what, this one is written by an Israeli Jew, how about that, now we know they were those Israeli Jews who refused to close their eyes to the atrocities done by their government and their more humane side surfaces to sympathized with the Palestinian plight.

Also the reason why it would seem that the UN seems to favor the Palestinian plight can be explained in this graph: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/. Oh wait, but what's the deal with Palestinian Hamas breaking ceasefire you say? ahh yes I was coming to that, in truth it would be very irrational for a weaker faction to break a ceasefire with a larger or more powerful faction especially when it will do them little good and causes them more damage than good, so what inspire Hamas to act this unreasonable, well here's the answer: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/reigniting.html and this http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/cfv.html

But do not be mistaken, Israeli violence not only involves the Palestinian but it also involves Americans themselves, well how about that! these American, whom I respect for their bravery to stand up to injustice were mauled and beaten in a campaign to silence them from speaking out against them when Illegal Israeli settlers began their campaign of intimidation, so that their....'terrosists' act of forcing someone out of their own homes and taking over their homes would be left in the dark: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/099/2004/en/bd2a2bf8-d56a-11dd-bb24-1fb85fe8fa05/mde150992004en. Oh sure the Hamas may or may not(for all I know, those videos of they're even real could just as well be editted seeing as how there were in many such instances when the film was cut and then skipped to another part) commit their own atrocities but desperate time calls for desperate measures, but who do we blame? the causes of course, why blame the result when, if Israel had not oppressed the Palestinian, deny them of their basic right and forcibly take away their homes and lands the result(suicide bombing, hostage taking, mortars attack) would not have happen, yes?

Moreover, Israeli defense force has a lot of history of twisting up and downplaying severity of civilian casulties, with this fact up in the open how can you even be sure that anything posted by the IDF is true? no, in truth the atrocities commited by them is far greater than the number media had been given, so what's differentiating them from the terrorists? http://www.midwestfreepress.com/2009/09/12/human-rights-group-exposes-israeli-atrocities/

« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 04:55:47 AM by Sydonai »

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #135 on: November 16, 2009, 05:24:29 AM »
The only way I think that America can walk away with some pride intact is if they themselves have practical conditions that amounts to Israel declaring war - even if they excuse it ( ie - build over this line and your really building Palestinian buildings for them - or an act of war ... choose ... while building the palestinians a hot city - or infrastructure for it about as far from Israel as possible plus give hot trade options with them.

How "Provoked" or "Justified" something is, is subjective.

if the US wants to be "done" with the middle east - walk away while it IS a mess -
then respect the UN positions thereafter (if you agree with it or not)
... dont veto UN decisions on it
.... don't ignore the UN's stance and do stuff against its recommendations anyway.

(it may cause oil prices to change in a way that is not something that america "likes",
those there may sell oil to other countries and may intentionally not choose to sell to America...
ie a nation that doesn't want to sell its precious non-renewable oil reserves to someone it hates - preferring to keep it or sell it to those who it doesn't hate.

Just like America will unlikely sell stealth bombers to Palestine... for one reason ... it doesnt WANT TO. Oh national stability stuff - OIL is a national stability tool of the middle east - being forced to sell it at low profit margins to the USA ... is takign that power away it is saying

" well middle east because oil is so valuable your reserves are not REALLY yours to do with a you wish hmm ok ?? "

Being forced to sell  (or extract) a resource or service for low profits to someone you hate which is that nation's ace and hope for wealth .. in a landscape that threatens of war and trade sanctions is nuts.... its about a nasty as repeating kicking them in the privates every day.

"Don't do this which is not in your best interest but ours or we will call on everyone to trade sanction you and they will because we are so damn powerful and are worried we will do so to them ... and if you don't cooperate we will be nastier

.. is NOT a "world policing" attitude.... its a
"hey world fuck you ! and we are nice because we could be meaner ok ?"

I think the reason why the USA spend so much on the military is that its foreign policies are so abraisive.. it is easy to convince people that an enemy can be anyone anywhere so it has to defend all borders from increasing amounts of options for increasing reasons...

and must STAY dominate for ANY chance for safety.

Is the UN "neutral" on this issue ? Hell no I hope not ! Is the UN non-perfect ? Likely
can the UN be corrupted - people / nations bribed ? yes. However it is the most neutral thing we have to work with for countries to resolve issues peacefully. Thats its objective - to make a happier world for all.

So far America has not experienced a time where they have lost dominance, as such their foreign policy doesn't cater for a time that dominance is not retained. - many other nations have and learn from past mistakes.

If the US is "there to help the world" - walk away from the middle east (yes middle east cheap oil will be harder to get your mitts on - but you have your own reserves), respect the UN, become a leader on environment stuff and help Africa.


Offline Elven Sex Goddess

  • All doorways lead to adventure.
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Location: In the mind's canvas of life's eroticism.
  • Gender: Female
  • "Imagination is the fruit of sensuality"
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #136 on: November 16, 2009, 11:57:49 AM »
I am simply amazed at turning the United States as the poster child for colonialism.    When if you pull up any history of colonialism.  It is led by all the leading nations of Europe and their colonial empires.  We make games and glorify the era of piracy in the Caribbean.  When in truth these were nothing more then criminals and mercenary that often held as privateers were commissioned into service by the various powers at the times.    Just as they did so in the early part of the last century leading into the two world wars in the middle east.   

Then the chart is misleading,  on the differential of what is spent on military.  How can it even begin to compare the cost factors of each countries defense budget. 

Off the site that I found ranking the worlds countries in regards to military strength. 

The United States
Quote
PERSONNEL
Total Population: 303,824,640 [2008]
Population Available: 144,354,117 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 118,600,541 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 4,266,128 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 1,385,122 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 1,458,500 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 453,000 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 29,920
Towed Artillery: 5,178 [2001]

NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 1,559
Merchant Marine Strength: 422 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 10
Aircraft Carriers: 12 [2008]
Destroyers: 50 [2008]
Submarines: 75 [2008]
Frigates: 92 [2008]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 100 [2008]
Mine Warfare Craft: 28 [2008]
Amphibious Craft: 38 [2008]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 18,169 [2003]
Helicopters: 4,593 [2003]
Serviceable Airports: 14,947 [2007]

FINANCES (USD)
Defense Budget: $515,400,000,000 [2009]
Foreign Exch. & Gold: $70,570,000,000 [2007]
Purchasing Power: $13,780,000,000,000 [2007]

OIL
Oil Production: 7,460,000 bbl/day [2007]
Oil Consumption: 20,800,000 bbl/day [2005]
Proven Oil Reserves: 21,760,000,000 bbl [2006]

LOGISTICAL
Labor Force: 153,100,000 [2007]
Roadways: 6,465,799 km
Railways: 226,612 km

GEOGRAPHIC
Waterways: 41,009 km
Coastline: 19,924 km
Square Land Area: 9,826,630 km

China
Quote
PERSONNEL
Total Population: 1,330,044,544 [2008]
Population Available: 729,323,673 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 609,273,077 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 20,470,412 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 2,255,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 800,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 3,969,000 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 31,300
Tanks: 8,200 [2004]
Armored Personnel Carriers: 5,000 [2004]
Towed Artillery: 14,000 [2004]
Self-Propelled Guns: 1,700 [2004]
Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 2,400 [2004]
Mortars: 16,000 [2001]
Anti-Tank Guided Weapons: 6,500 [2004]
Anti-Aircraft Weapons: 7,700 [2004]

NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 760
Merchant Marine Strength: 1,822 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 8
Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2010]
Destroyers: 21 [2004]
Submarines: 68 [2004]
Frigates: 42 [2004]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 368 [2004]
Mine Warfare Craft: 39 [2004]
Amphibious Craft: 121 [2004]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 1,900 [2004]
Helicopters: 491 [2004]
Serviceable Airports: 467 [2007]

FINANCES (USD)
Defense Budget: $59,000,000,000 [2008]
Foreign Exch. & Gold: $1,534,000,000,000 [2007]
Purchasing Power: $7,099,000,000,000 [2007]

OIL
Oil Production: 3,725,000 bbl/day [2007]
Oil Consumption: 6,930,000 bbl/day [2007]
Proven Oil Reserves: 12,800,000,000 bbl [2007]

LOGISTICAL
Labor Force: 800,700,000 [2007]
Roadways: 1,930,544 km
Railways: 75,438 km

GEOGRAPHIC
Waterways: 124,000 km
Coastline: 14,500 km
Square Land Area: 9,596,960 km

Russia

Quote
PERSONNEL
Total Population: 140,702,096 [2008]
Population Available: 73,239,761 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 50,249,854 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 1,602,673 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 1,245,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 2,400,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 359,100 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 79,985
Tanks: 22,800 [2005]
Armored Personnel Carriers: 9,900 [2005]
Towed Artillery: 13,585 [2005]
Self-Propelled Guns: 6,010 [2005]
Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 4,350 [2005]
Mortars: 6,100 [2005]

NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 526
Merchant Marine Strength: 1,074 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 8
Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2005]
Destroyers: 15 [2005]
Submarines: 61 [2005]
Frigates: 19 [2005]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 72 [2005]
Mine Warfare Craft: 41 [2005]
Amphibious Craft: 22 [2005]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 3,888 [2005]
Helicopters: 2,625 [2003]
Serviceable Airports: 1,260 [2007]

FINANCES (USD)
Defense Budget: $43,200,000,000 [2008]
Foreign Exch. & Gold: $476,400,000,000 [2007]
Purchasing Power: $2,097,000,000,000 [2007]

OIL
Oil Production: 9,870,000 bbl/day [2007]
Oil Consumption: 2,916,000 bbl/day [2006]
Proven Oil Reserves: 60,000,000,000 bbl [2006]

LOGISTICAL
Labor Force: 75,100,000 [2007]
Roadways: 854,000 km
Railways: 87,157 km

GEOGRAPHIC
Waterways: 102,000 km
Coastline: 37,653 km
Square Land Area: 17,075,200 km

You can't even begin to sort out the factors such as what it costs for each country to even support and maintain one soldier in comparsion to another.  Though the cost of one American soldier upkeep is not the same as one from China.  Let alone the cost of the weapon systems.  Thus putting up a graph that shows such is really a wash in playing semantics of the facts.  It is just like the distortion of facts that the United States gives the most money as a country to others, and on a private level of its citizens.  Yet ranks only 22nd in the world.   However, in this is not taken in account that not all Americans are rich and with money.  Thus with such a huge base it drives down the number in comparison to others.

So what drives the United States with needing to have such a strong military.  Sure you can find greed, greed is everywhere.   But the underlying policy of the past latter half of the century is the United States has been dragged into two world wars.   Dragged into a conflict in French Indo China, Vietnam.  Based on part because of Europe's over all view on communism.  Which if one looks at history is the reason why Germany fought on two fronts in each of  the wars.   The first one, it really was not about winning on the western front.  It was about stalling to win a peace agreement.   The real focus towards the end was to hit hard and what was feared and that was the state that emerged in Russia as the Soviet Union.  In such this carried over to the world war 2.   

Finally to easily place the Palestians as the ones that have been totally wronged.  Making the state of Israeli with their responses to rocket attacks and bombings of terrorist acts.   As the fault of Israel and their responses.   Well one has to look at the why of the response.  We tend to forget or over look twice the Arab world around Israel has risen up to put away their own age old differences to attack Israel. If you compare size and amount of people to each.  Israel is compelled to show such a superior show of overwhelming responses to such.   Especially when you have nations around you that to this day refuse to recognize you. 

On Germany and Japan,  I will go by a site with facts and not the hear say of because I talked to someone that is German.   Hell growing up, I had a Korean born step mother of sorts,  Actually a lived in girlfriend of my dads, as I was an Air force brat growing up.  Her mother came to visit from Korea and she hated anything to do with Japanese.  Perhaps because she had to endure the rape camps.  A culture that we tend to raise up as honorable with romantic notions of the era of Samurai.   Well that romantic notion in truth was Japan through out its history was the far east equivalent of  west colonial powers.  In such that gave rise to such historic notations as the Korean turtle ships that held off invasions.    To the Chinese losing a fleet to invade Japan to end such invasions.  So when one says the United States is the sole responsible for holding Japan down from rebuilding a military.  That is hardly the case, just have to look at the views of its neighbors in the region to see who really does not want Japan to reform its militant history. 

I am argue not to pit we against the world.  Because I truly thinks the world needs to step up, if you don't want the United States to be the big watch dog,  then take responsibility for what your just as much blame for creating.  An start doing something about it.  Instead of continuing pointing the finger and brushing off the woes are all based on American greed.   When the truth is much more complex and is the result of everyone being at fault.  Until the world steps up, the American response will be filtered with the same.  Because as pointed out the American public general view has been, we have been dragged into two world wars and numerous other incursions.  Due to what was once the result of colonialism.  In which we at our beginning was part of, and fought for our independence.

So like a married couple, the basic thing is trust, we don't trust the rest of the world.   So how about the rest of the world ask why this is, the most powerful nation in the world does not trust it.

Finally since this is about the conflict of the Israeli/Palestinians.   As I have tried to point out. This is not the cause of actions of the United States alone.  Nor the last sixty years.  But on a level that has spanned not a mere 2000 years, but can be traced back 5500 years to the first peoples that occupied the valley. the Canaanites.   So until that can be sorted out, and people can live together,  no matter who the United States, the United Nations,  or who ever.  The only peace will be formed at the end of a gun barrel in figure of speaking 



Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #137 on: November 16, 2009, 12:40:15 PM »
     Odin, I have to say you are sliding around an awful lot on trying to hold everyone down to WW2 thinking.  You seem to want a Nazi in the room so badly that you're losing sight of most of the present.  So first, a bit more detail on Japan...  Sure there was an Article 9 banning "offensive" capabilities.  It is not a simple, timeless extension of American claims of justice since 1945, because those keep changing!  It's been a point of contention, really, whenever the West (or some Japanese) change their mind and want something else from the Japanese military.  Often Japan has pointed to it to say, look, we aren't allowed to help the US fight, sorry and please don't ask us to send troops anymore.  Parts of that Article were written by the Japanese representatives in ways that actually took the American occupation by surprise.  The Occupation was not really in control of every institution that developed; they just sat on the territory and tried to mold things in a general direction. 

     This puts the whole notion that Japan was ever consistently punished all this time since WW2 in question.  But more to the point, it's all really a far cry from Palestine where Israel is making an economic stranglehold, now.  And there is no international Palestinian military (certainly not within Gaza or the West Bank) to compare with anything like the current Japanese military which does have large numbers and a conventional defense worth mentioning.

Quote
Palestine picked the losing side in a war and they're reaping the benefit of bad choices. Maybe they will learn or maybe they'll keep giving the Israelis good excuses to attack them.
     Well, if it were that simple, let's dig up some more bad blood over 60 years and see what it would seem to demand of the world in the present if we stuck to certain parts.  You've provided a quote that indicates that only certain Palestinian factions were even against the allies in WW2 to begin with, but wanting to punish all of them about it forever is not a very practical (never mind ethical) option.   

     Germany invaded Russia in WW2 and inflicted tremendous suffering; perhaps the Soviets should have nuked NATO rather than risk allowing any resurgent Germany.  The US supported the terribly corrupt and sometimes brutal Marcos administration in the Philipines, perhaps that country should cut diplomatic ties with us and immigrant Filipinos whose relatives were harmed should begin sabotage and guerrilla attacks within the US.  We supported Saddam versus the Kurds just a few years back, so they should be working against our troops now.  The Iranians probably didn't vote for their president, but he says they did and they can't stop him -- is anyone allowed to say it isn't entirely their fault he hasn't been ousted?  But you might recall, we backed the Shah in Iran who had some quite brutal policies, more recently than WW2 occurred (should we leave Iran alone now because we were bad, back then).  We backed the Contras when they were rather unpopular in Nicaragua; what should that mean for trade and peace in Latin America?  Oh, and Sweden overran most of Northern Europe around the 16th-17th century I think?  Shouldn't they be punished some more?  Wherever does this thing end. 

     Hamas provides social services for Palestinians while Israel basically often embargoes them.  But you say if Hamas challenges Israel, it all doesn't matter.  How about taking away some of the factors that make the challenge meaningful?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 12:54:15 PM by kylie »

Offline Elven Sex Goddess

  • All doorways lead to adventure.
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Location: In the mind's canvas of life's eroticism.
  • Gender: Female
  • "Imagination is the fruit of sensuality"
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #138 on: November 16, 2009, 02:08:34 PM »
I am not going to rebuttal on such the Kurds and such, which is pretty much an untruth in regards to us assisting Saddam in carrying out genocide on the Kurdish people.  If they United States is guilty of anything in that regards.   It is not stepping in sooner for that reason.   

As to the other, that is seeking and stretching to thus continuing throwing the blame in one direction.  I could counter with history, but I sense that your mind is already made up and will not change.

However, what I will counter with is this lifting up of Hamas.  As if this organization is a benign government of the Palestinian people.   So I offer this, articles of the platform that is the party line of the Hamas. 

Quote
    * Hamas is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood (Art. 2);
    * Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7);
    * Jihad is the path of Hamas, and death for Allah its most sublime belief (Art. 8);
    * The land of Palestine is an Islamic inheritance (Art. 11);
    * All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12);
    * Peace is not an option (Art. 13);
    * Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to liberate Palestine (Art. 14);
    * Muslims must study the enemy, looking for weak spots (Art. 16);
    * Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17)
    * Women must train their children to become Jihad fighters (Art. 18);
    * Enemies rule the world through intermediaries such as the United Nations (Art. 22);
    * The PLO is too secular (Art. 27);
    * All Arab states must support Jihad (Art. 28);
    * All Muslim leaders must support Jihad (Art. 30);
    * Hamas cares about human rights and religious toleration, provided all other religions live in the shadow of Islam (Art. 31);
    * Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32);
    * Jihad will not end until liberation is complete (Art. 33); and
    * Palestine is the navel of the earth and Jihad is our answer to the Christian Crusades (Art. 34).



Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #139 on: November 16, 2009, 03:07:34 PM »
I am not going to rebuttal on such the Kurds and such, which is pretty much an untruth in regards to us assisting Saddam in carrying out genocide on the Kurdish people.  If they United States is guilty of anything in that regards.   It is not stepping in sooner for that reason.
     As I understand, we armed Saddam generally at that time, yes did nothing to intervene about it while internally, generally praising Saddam and sending Rummy over to visit in proximate years (if primarily as a balancer against Iran).

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4936
Quote
As the Reagan administration had removed Iraq from the State Department list of State Sponsors of Terrorism, US companies were allowed to export chemical precursors to the Saddam regime.
     Then, there is the little matter of the US not enforcing declared no-fly zones against Iraqi helicopters putting down the insurrection by Shiites in the South immediately after Gulf War 1991.  Some would argue that was basically setting up Saddam's opposition to be crushed...

Quote
As to the other, that is seeking and stretching to thus continuing throwing the blame in one direction. 
     I never said the Palestinians were completely blameless.  I said basically, they have fewer options and are more practically boxed in.  Practically, though, how could the US proceed to change anything by blaming them -- particularly those who are residents in the West Bank and Gaza Strip?  Attempting to overly emphasize blame on the Palestinians has typically gone with arguments that feed into the status quo.  I don't think it's the best possible arrangement, just the one that people with the bigger guns and walls have decided to implement.  So I don't focus that way.  That's all.

Quote
However, what I will counter with is this lifting up of Hamas.  As if this organization is a benign government of the Palestinian people.   So I offer this, articles of the platform that is the party line of the Hamas.
     They provide some services and they represent some real grievances.  If no one who actually has the options to do so addresses the grievances, then the idea of jihad will be more attractive to more people.  It's not simply some extremist blackmail.  The violence is only absolutely "senseless" for those who believe everything that is in place, is perfectly reasonable and should keep right on.  There is also a certain popular and somehow moral movement under it.  I think if one looks behind that for motivations though, there is a lot of inequality and some Israeli political snubbing fanning the flames.  Hamas can say whatever as a platform, much as the Republican right can.  It is common for more drastic goals to go on paper than anyone is really interested in fighting for -- and this is a region where people may ask 10 times the reasonable bus fare before you dicker.   I think how much intensity of conflict will actually fly in practice, depends on how besieged the Palestinian people feel.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 03:10:27 PM by kylie »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2009, 03:27:39 PM »
So what do we do?

Back out. Let them kill each other? I'm sure the radical Islamic elements would be more than happy to fight the the last Palestinan? I know Syria would love to help the Israelis into the ocean or put a bullet in the skull of everyone of them.

Point of fact. Both sides have done HORRIBLE things.  To make either side the victim isn't right.

But tell me how long the Isrealis would last without help? Or how likely that if push comes to shove someone Arab nations will be joining the atomic bomb victim club?

Is American policy right? No.

Do we need to get President Carter (with the backing of the government and Pres. Obama) to get them to sit, listen, and COMPROMISE.

Something neither side has done since the Palestinians tried to push them into the Med. (Though I don't blame them as much as their 'allies')

Offline Cythieus

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2009, 03:32:52 PM »
and you think Israel is the saint here when they were the very cause of this 4 decades of grief and suffering inflicted upon the weak and angry Palestinians? think again, the rocket attack did not happen after Hamas took over, it happens well before that together with the suicide bombings etc.

Get your fact straight, the Rocket attacks happened last year and Hamas took over in 2007.

The only way I think that America can walk away with some pride intact is if they themselves have practical conditions that amounts to Israel declaring war - even if they excuse it ( ie - build over this line and your really building Palestinian buildings for them - or an act of war ... choose ... while building the palestinians a hot city - or infrastructure for it about as far from Israel as possible plus give hot trade options with them.

How "Provoked" or "Justified" something is, is subjective.

if the US wants to be "done" with the middle east - walk away while it IS a mess -
then respect the UN positions thereafter (if you agree with it or not)
... dont veto UN decisions on it
.... don't ignore the UN's stance and do stuff against its recommendations anyway.

Provoked is provoked, if someone swings at you, hit or miss, you've got provocation right there. Hamas and Palestine constantly "swing" at Israel and the second Israel beats their ass they whine to the UN.

Also respecting the UN's descion doesn't mean you don't veto it or don't disagree with it. That's a horrible short sighted way to see things. I can respect your opinions but if I disagree I am going to say something. And the UN garners very little respect from anyone.

Offline Sydonai

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2009, 04:25:44 PM »
nope, the first Palestinian rocket to fell into Israeli territory(and hurts no one) is on 16 April 2001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006

Offline Cythieus

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #143 on: November 16, 2009, 04:37:31 PM »
nope, the first Palestinian rocket to fell into Israeli territory(and hurts no one) is on 16 April 2001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006

And that's not what I am talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Israel-Gaza_conflict

Thanks for playing though.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2009, 04:59:49 PM »
And that's not what I am talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Israel-Gaza_conflict

Thanks for playing though.

Sorry.. you're not thinking like the folks involved are. This isn't about today. This sort of thing went back to the friggin 1920s! Memory, personal or cultural, plays as much into this as anything that went on since.

Offline Elven Sex Goddess

  • All doorways lead to adventure.
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Location: In the mind's canvas of life's eroticism.
  • Gender: Female
  • "Imagination is the fruit of sensuality"
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2009, 05:02:02 PM »
It seems everyone is being subjective in interpreting history and facts to move their opinions on the subject.

First I ask where do you pick in history.  To has the right and claim to the area.  I mean if you really look at it, the so called chosen land, King Saul, King David and finally King Solomon really came before anything conceived as the Jihad or Islamic movement. 

I am not saying it makes what Israel does right.  My main point has been to point out that no matter who attempts to create a solution.   Be it through the United States,  the United Nations or who ever has to deal with a complex issue that has not been settled throughout history.   And what history has shown us, is only through the strength of military has any peace existed if such can be called in the region. 

As this is not the crusades,  this is not an extension of world war 2 and having chosen the wrong side.   This is an issue that is about humanity.  About people coexisting together.   To get past their prejudices.  Born of atrocities that both sides and the world has inflicted upon both sides.   

Which leads to the basis of this thread.  Should the United States pull out.  Pull out, I would assume meaning quit backing the Israeli.  That would in a matter of time amount to the eventual genocide of the Jewish people once again.    Of course a people that for the longest was forced from their claimed homeland.  That had just endured one of the most horrific atrocity in the holocaust with over 6 million killed.   You can see from where their moral judgment comes to how they respond.   While it does not excuse it gives basis for their actions.  While on the other hand,  what is the basis of the entire Arab world of Islam in conjunction to wanting to eradicate Israel.  I can understand the Palestinians fighting for what the believe is their right and homeland.    So the question is how does one get each side to recognize that each have claim and that it would behoove them both.  To form a agreement both can live with. 

I don't have the answer.  I only have an opinion based on what the past has shown.  That until it is worked out, no solution will work.   Which is the problem there, because they both come to the table with not latitude to effect this.

With one final point to be made.  That most pacifist/idealist here have based their formed opinions on rallying around the cause that Israel is the sole bully.  Disregarding the historical evidence which gives rise to cause of their actions.  While using the same very argument for the Palestinians and Arab world in turn against the brute of Israel.  Because of a underdog syndrome.   Which in truth places blame on both.   So instead of asking if America can pull out.  Or if the UN should get involve.  As how who ever it is, will go about this.  How do you change the face of secular and years of religion that propagates such on both sides to create a lasting peace of coexistence.


Offline Cythieus

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #146 on: November 16, 2009, 05:06:31 PM »
Sorry.. you're not thinking like the folks involved are. This isn't about today. This sort of thing went back to the friggin 1920s! Memory, personal or cultural, plays as much into this as anything that went on since.

What I posted was the most recent attempt to be peaceful and how the Palestinians are just as good a breaking treaties as the evil Israelis.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2009, 05:21:14 PM »
What I posted was the most recent attempt to be peaceful and how the Palestinians are just as good a breaking treaties as the evil Israelis.

I personally think the President needs to smack both side's leaderships heads together. Sadly I fear the most rational leaders on both sides are long gone.

Offline Sydonai

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #148 on: November 16, 2009, 05:59:23 PM »
by recent attempt of Palestinian or Hamas breaking the truce? I assumed you mean in Jan 2009? because if it is(I would suggests that you give in a specific date of the breaking of the truce so it would make it easier for me to read and search about it) it was again Israel that break the truce first, not the palestinian, the rocket attacks was the result of Israel Illegal incursion/raid into Palestinian territory and killing 6 Hamas fighters.

United Nations: Hamas Did Not Break the Truce, Israel Did.

CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

Quote
With one final point to be made.  That most pacifist/idealist here have based their formed opinions on rallying around the cause that Israel is the sole bully.  Disregarding the historical evidence which gives rise to cause of their actions.  While using the same very argument for the Palestinians and Arab world in turn against the brute of Israel.  Because of a underdog syndrome.   Which in truth places blame on both.   So instead of asking if America can pull out.  Or if the UN should get involve.  As how who ever it is, will go about this.  How do you change the face of secular and years of religion that propagates such on both sides to create a lasting peace of coexistence.

I'm not even sure if religion has anything to do with it, I spoke with a Palestinian student that's been studying in my college and he said most of the reason for Palestinian continuous struggles and refusal to backed down even a little is the fact that the harsh environment they are living in has forces them to be so stubborn and vengeful, but he also mentions that most of his people fought to get their lands back and this has to them little to no relation to religion whatsoever as he claims of course but then again its not me who lives there and having to suffer everyday for it.

Offline Elven Sex Goddess

  • All doorways lead to adventure.
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Location: In the mind's canvas of life's eroticism.
  • Gender: Female
  • "Imagination is the fruit of sensuality"
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #149 on: November 16, 2009, 06:23:25 PM »
Quote
I'm not even sure if religion has anything to do with it, I spoke with a Palestinian student that's been studying in my college and he said most of the reason for Palestinian continuous struggles and refusal to backed down even a little is the fact that the harsh environment they are living in has forces them to be so stubborn and vengeful, but he also mentions that most of his people fought to get their lands back and this has to them little to no relation to religion whatsoever as he claims of course but then again its not me who lives there and having to suffer everyday for it.

Funny thou such is not their case with the articles of the platform that is Hamas party line.  Nor is the killing between the two fractions.  The prior Fatah that ruled for more then thirty years and the surprisingly new leadership of Hamas, to in fact create a civil war within the Palestinians. 

But then your missing the very point in being made.  I am confident leading up to the creation of Israel.  That the Jewish people suffered leading to their need on forming a state of independence.   So I do not dismiss your friends view, but one person voice against what is the backdrop of the Hamas doctrine is just that a lone opinion that carries not the weight to persaude other wise.

Drawing upon history again.  I like to remind those that argue for the return of a Palestinian state.  To once again go back in history and re look it over. Before working with a revisionist history framework to support their argument.

As the British forces pulled out of Palestine and the mandate came to an end, the Executive Committee of the Jewish "Yishuv" (community) in Palestine met to decide whether or not to declare a state, as has been envisioned under UN Resolution 181. The Arab states had declared that if such a state was declared, they would invade it. Nonetheless, the committee decided to declare a state, armed with the promise of US President Harry S. Truman that he would recognize such a state if it was declared. The Israeli Declaration of Independence was read out on Friday, the 14th of May 1948 by   David Ben Gurion, who then became the first Prime Minister of the new state. The State was quickly recognized by the United States and the USSR.

The Palestinians did not declare a state immediately, and though several attempts were made to do so, they were blocked by the Jordanians and then by the Egyptians. The Egyptians later allowed the declaration of such a state in Gaza in September 1948, but it was recognized by no-one and had no resources and no real existence. Arab states had no interest in the formation of a separate state in Palestine, both because each state had territorial ambitions in Palestine, and because they feared the radical influence of Palestinian leadership under Haj Amin El-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.