You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 03, 2016, 10:00:49 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?  (Read 9842 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KateTopic starter

Ok a heated topic.

It does feel that Israel has the US in its back pocket.
How can peace exist while Israel is allowed to build feverishly ?
Isn't this land grabbing while instability exists ?

Hillary allowing this is effectively saying Palestine just is a place for Israel to expand into.

Does anyone else think that peace would be impossible without suspension of that being a requirement ?

Only a finding of "any buildings passed this boarder that has been build by the israelis are now Palestines !" is the only thing i can think of which would solve this (giving Palestine a circle of its own buildings AROUND Israel.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 12:09:28 AM by Kate »

Offline Jude

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 11:16:06 PM »
I don't believe that the Middle East Crisis will be solved until the Israel situation is, and it doesn't seem like anyone is serious about solving that but Jimmy Carter.  What he has to say on the issue is pretty much the only intelligent, balanced viewpoint I've seen from anyone who has any mainstream appeal.

Sometimes it feels like practically everyone else in the U.S. short of Noam Chomsky is militantly pro-Israel to a fault.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 11:17:13 PM by Jude »

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 12:29:32 AM »
yeah i belong to an ally of the US (I have my doubts when bush was in power)

but yeah i cant see things being good if everything that happens is pro-Israel.

I dont see nasty trade sanctions imposed when Israel uses military jets  to decimate a Palestinian suburb because one individual that may have been Palestinian (likely was) went on a spree.

That is like america shooting missiles into some place is south africa because one person from that country went loopy and shot two people ... if that doesn't get escalate the "receiving" country from being nasty back in whatever way it can (ie terrorism) what would ?

Building into it perhaps ?

Peace ?

No.

That is a receipy for a billionaire with contacts supplying Palestine with nasty options - not because they even are Palestinians, but just because they see the Palestine so worked over by the entire world effectively and feel like giving them some aces.

It is easy for me to picture some guy saying to a few who just lost their family to a isreali missle silo thing

"Well you know what ? Sure they had a hard time historically but so have you lot. I dont see anyone even considering anything that is pro palestine as releavent at all - seems the only expectation thrown in front of your table is they have more rights - might makes right rubbish.
Intersting thing is that everyone is so worried about nukes and viruses and stuff they forgot that a fuel-air bomb can be almost as nasty ... here have two ... actually have ten. Sure the boarders are being watched but hey the USA have their hands full worring about a hell of a lot more than you - you can get a few through. Im sick of the Palestinian cause not being treated seriously and that islreal is more important. Its not we are all people all equal and the moment you start favoring one side too much it always leads to war !

Hasn't the world learned from this yet ? I guess it hasn't ... oh well hear you go oh and just for the hell of it here are some dirty bombs and a fist full of depleted uranium to boot

- dont bother trying to claim your you are not acting for palestine. All know palestine doesnt want you do to this as they know the reprisals will be ten times what you do. But the world will just punish Palestine for doing it anyway and you know it. Ahh its sad it came to this, but how else can things end if not like this - now all things considered ? Really ? You know the longer you leave it the more will suffer so now is a good time - so good luck - "god" be with you."

I hate the idea of more war - I think that everyone is sick of it.

But really ? Building like that is effectively a declaration of war, having the americans effectively say "we dont see it as something that should be a requirement for peace so feel free to go nuts like palestine is really more your place than theres anyway .. "

... is insane, its only going to fortify the inclinations of a country or someone with a lot of power thinking like the above doing something as equally extreme.

God I hope it doesnt come to that I soooo hope hillary has something to offer palestine in return for these concessions - i just cant imagine any fruit sweet enough after this mess to placate Palestine other than another u-turn.

"world vs our country" created the climate in Germany for hitler.

America should know better than this, frankly Israel should know better than to build.
We need to learn from history not repeat it.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 01:11:53 AM by Kate »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 01:21:01 AM »
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/BHR/BHR-43.pdf

These are two perspectives on the borders of Israel as decided by God, enough said the Palestinians have no claim there they are squatting on Jewish land. They should get out or submit and the United States should support the Biblical lands of Israel ,I suggest the latter one, as the legitimate territory they have a right to. And let God do the rest through His chosen people while we support them if attacked or act to secure their territory within those borders.

We can then be clear with one stance that is simple and assues the Jews of respect for their older and clear claim.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 01:42:03 AM »
and of course the UN cant get involved as any motion would just be veto-d by the USA.

(anti-veto votes i think should be something countries could earn by helping out a third world country and raising their standard a notch on maslows hierachy of needs (it would make for a progressive world) - however such a motion would be likely be veto'd also but oh well ... )

I read the quote in that PDF about genesis stating that god's chosen people have these borders.

A religious perspective is "relevant" so i dont want any to not view it welcomed - (as you can imagine i am pro-Palestine for this issue)

Some like myself believe that EVERYONE is gods Chosen people.
( I do beleive in a God but I do not have faith that its views are accurately captured by religions explicitly stating particulars of it )

(Jews not being treated equally (ie german are the chosen people and everyone else are different layers of scum) in the past directed blind eyes from the allies as terrorism was used by the Jewish to possess "a" home land in the first place .. if i was jewish after WWII i would likely go to extremes to get some homeland also ... but they wouldnt have that need if such bias wasn't so blatant in the first place)

Some though beleive in other views of what is God's will, views not reflected by the book of Genesis.

Some beleive that the will and perspective of God (if it does exist) can not be fathomed by anyone let alone captured in a language.

In short some beleive in other Gods, with as much reason and devotion as you.

Ruby - forgive me for suggesting it but you do seem to be claiming your interpretation of those clauses is the stance of God.

Remember even if the original scriptures were indeed 100 percent true and sacred - it has been translated, history changes things people add what they want valued in them and remove what doesn't serve their intentions. The victor does write history.

Christians felt justified joining the crusades to spare their soul from hell - i think the middle east has had enough of war on its soil from others with religious stances umbrellaed by a "peaceful and a loving god" - it doesn't make sense.

I guess from your stance Ruby I can see how some American support whats happening.

I would be preferred to be thrown out of heaven than worship any god that is as wrathful and needy as the one the bible does depict.

No God of mine.

"Lucifer ? Now I understand why you had enough of all that "do this or else" crud and wanted to try something else ... hey have room for another  ?"

"Nope sorry ... hell is full"

"Oh come on can you squeeze me in plleassee I can't stand the idea of hearing others quote the bible all day justifying this and that."

"I feel for you I got sick of it too but nope ... hey why not become your own god huh ? give it a go ... choose your own values, helps you think within them - and well ... have faith in them, the moment you do you find others like you, I did it and hey i have a kingdom !"

"Hey thats the best advice ever ! Your damn good ! "

"Damned ? No. Dont beleive what those devils say about god and damnation ... its a lie trying to trick you into joining their evil plot to justify horrors... they know no better though so they beleive it. Pity they were exposed to such a thing before they choose their own values but hey it happens.  But Good ? Oh yes .. you have ... noooo idea just how good i really am"
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 02:06:13 AM by Kate »

Offline September

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 02:13:20 AM »
Firstly because Israel is the only functioning democracy in the area, which makes them natural allies of the US and deserving of international support.

Secondly because they have nuclear weapons, and if they were invaded successfully (which is what all their neighbours want) there's a good chance they'd nuke the world's oil supplies.  That would suck.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 02:33:57 AM »
They are not a functioning democracy if they are instigate war or not in peace themselves
(- partially functioning perhaps -)

by your second notion their power over the USA is due to the threat of terrorism ?
If so I thought the USA wanted to swash their hands of terrorists ?
(I doubt they would do such a thing - that does ensure that the world hates them)
and um natural allies of the US ?

Whoa .... historical allies perhaps

( some of america's allies were seriously reconsidering such strong affiliations (including the country i live in) after the recent mess in the middle east when america was principaled

- American's please don't assume previous allies will stay so when you take hard stances (you do grate more than you know) - the nuclear umbrella that America promised is getting less relevant now many have them, because America has not disarmed as they promised they would the nuclear agreement is less meaningful - meaning more seek their own. America has bullied about more countries than most American citizens know and many agreements other countries have made with USA ... the usa has not delivered their side of the agreements. Its thread of tarriffs and boycotting of trading goods (ie anti-free trade with 1/3 of the worlds gdp) ... unless you do so and so - has caused resentment in many of your traditional allies ( because to get your way you do it to your "allies" as well ! - not many in the USA know this.

the subsidies / tarriffs on wheat alone is a huge one that doesn't allow poor countries to compete. Frankly meaning the cities of america are paying in taxes to keep wheat farmers producing in america - subsidized - then priced on the world market below what needy countries that can make it cheaper can compete with - not only does this drive Australia nuts
- but also destroys the free trade model allowing very poor countries to get ahead

(ie the free trade model is where subsidies and tariffs don't exist or are very low)

In short America, your very mean to your allies also.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 03:10:28 AM by Kate »

Offline September

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 03:25:22 AM »
Sometimes a democracy doesn't get to choose whether it's in a war or not.  I'm sure that if the country you lived in was hit by 7,000 missiles fired from a neighbour, your government would feel it had to respond, wouldn't it?

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 03:33:25 AM »
Democracy or not "chosen people" from one book or "chosen people" from another - yes !

Thats why Palestinian individuals commit home made bombing "terrorist" attacks on Israel.
(and if they had something nastier ... like what the Israeli's use on them - guess which way would a fickle wind blow ? )

Principals and ethics with the desire to use force to back them work both ways, it drives any side of a conflict.

(who cared when Israel was being formed by Jewish forces being terrorists in Palestine to clear an area for Jewish settlement ? only after such terrorism "worked" were the tables turned for Palestine to be seen as terrorists towards Israel )

Like it or not Israel formed from acts of terrorism - success being viewed as legitimate by the US. These were acts of war against some "unchosen" by those with power which seems to be staying so ... until they are no longer deemed unchosen by one with power.

The history of WWII should be vividly clear within the mindset of Israelis of what happens
when the values of a populous is repressed beyond tolerance ....  they get militant they get fanatical.

That is why the Germans became so in the past
(Post WWI imposed cruel measures on germany)
That is why the Israelis are now ...
Do the same to Palestine... and expect what ?

Them to value quotes from genesis above what happens to their own family ?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 06:13:23 AM by Kate »

Online Doomsday

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009, 06:55:43 AM »
I've always thought it was shitty that Palestinians had their country taken away.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2009, 07:27:08 AM »
Yeah its tough.

I just saw something on Hillary stating that she didn't mean to imply its not a requirement - just not a requirement before people should be around a negotiating table (from the jist of what i saw anyway). Less watered down than most think I feel as effectively
its not being deemed an act of war).

I really think america should be careful now - and not just for sake in the middle east, many other nations are hating america from how they feel it is treating others and how selfish it is. (make no mistake post WWII if any were to be a super power and dominate - america would be the best of them ... the world does know this) but more are armed with nasty
options and a list of "why america should pay" is growing. What a mess.

I really do hope Hillary pulls off these negotiations. One side is powered by religious views and a history of atrocious persecution when caught in anothers lands.

The others are very poor dealing with
a) well financed terrorists who have set up shop in their land who
b) don't hestitate to level their suburbs with high tech weaponry
c) AND is now a nuclear power
d) AND who is growing in their nation ...
e) AND has a vetoing country stopping anything the UN could propose against them.
f) AND is backed by the biggest super power in the world.
g) Have places deemed holy by your own population in that area
g) Who can not control each and every individual in their nation - any one of them doing a home made bomb thing that injures someone in Israel .. meaning X of your own suburbs leveled without warning... injuring many - your government cant do anything about it - some family members of which get angered enough to make their own home made bombs .. take matters into their own hands ... cycle repeats.

Ie Palestine government has 0 options to prevent fanatics appearing within its population while reasons for some being so are escalating.

If she resolves that (it IS possible - America / the UN CAN give Palestine SUPER plush options ( remember the Palestinians are poor ) ... then wow. I would salute her.

Oh Hillary Clinton, good luck, I wish you well.
For your efforts to find peace now, (my) God be with you always ... in all ways.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 07:43:30 AM by Kate »

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2009, 10:19:25 AM »
The US is in a fix (with the possible exceptions of Egypt and Turkey) we have no long term STABLE allies in the region aside from Israel. That is the first problem, added in the MASSIVE amount of interaction and such between Israel and the US it's not going away.

Sorry, too many interested folks on both sides of the divide for that. Too many POLITICIANS owing favors to the other side.

However, I think Israel has long thought that they have had carte blanche to do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it. They deserve to exist and they have a right to not have their neighbors shell, bomb and shoot their citizens. (Remember.. it wasn't the Israeli army that started this.. )

That being said, I think the Israeli government is letting their more conservative factions set policies that are going to sour a lot of international support in the long run. They need to realize that to ensure safety and security they are going to have to back off their expansion and work out something with the Palestinians.

That being said, the PLO, Hamas (sp?) and the rest of the folks that represent the Palestinians need to understand things WON'T be the same again. Can't be. And they need to stop being used by everyone else in the region as a way to spit on the Israelis (Syria, Iran, ect..)

Both sides need leadership that understand the word compromise and the term 'give &take'. Sadly I think those leaders are now dead and the leaders now aren't interested in really breaking the status qo at the moment.

BOTH sides need someone to figratively (and diplomatically) smack their heads together and sit them down to work things out. THEM. Not the other folks in the region. 

Sadly, that isn't going to happen.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009, 10:36:04 AM »
Callie Del Noire,

bashing / sanctioning / punishing the palestinian head isnt going to help matters (others have tried - its not the head of the "beast" some think it is)

the palestinian government doesnt have control over what is causing the other side issues (ie individuals doing crazy stuff)

the israeli government does have control over what is causing the palestinians issues.

This "situation" wasn't caused by Palestine.


Online Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 01:37:51 PM »
Callie Del Noire,

bashing / sanctioning / punishing the palestinian head isnt going to help matters (others have tried - its not the head of the "beast" some think it is)

the palestinian government doesnt have control over what is causing the other side issues (ie individuals doing crazy stuff)

the israeli government does have control over what is causing the palestinians issues.

This "situation" wasn't caused by Palestine.

It takes 2 parties to negotiate. Neither is too up on it right now. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Palestinians the ones who orginally tried to push the Israelis out of their land? (Granted at the instigation of other neighbors)

You want peace.. you sit down.. BOTH sides, take some lumps, eat some crow and compromise. The Israelis and the Palestinians. Truth be told, I think if they would work together they would find some common ground, but they'd both rather hate and kill each other.

Offline Zakharra

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 03:21:18 PM »
 Palistine was never a nation. The areas of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golian Heights were parts of the nations around Israel that were conquired in wars started against Israel.  I'm always wondering why people think the Palastinians ever had a nation to start with.  Their land was from 3 different nations, not one.

Offline Kotah

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 03:29:08 PM »
The us' opinion and standing on all of the middle east is completely fucked. Seriously. No offense or anything. It's like if we sit around a say 'freedom', 'free trade', and 'ally' enough it's just kinnda gonna be that way.

It's ridiculousness.

Offline Serephino

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 09:06:02 PM »
Personally, I don't think the US has any allies anymore, just other countries that play nice with us for the moment to keep the peace, or to gain something from it.

I think the Palestinians did get a raw deal.  If I remember my history right, the state of Israel was created after WWII.  Before that Jewish people lived in Europe, thought they weren't all that welcome.  Then the UN, with strong US encouragement I believe, decided the Jews should get their land back.  Nobody consulted the people already living there.  They just decided that the Bible said that area was the promised land of the chosen people and they needed to have it back.

Using the Bible for justification of anything like this really pisses me off.  This is a big world and not everyone follows the same religion.  I don't believe the Jews are entitled to shit.  If they lost the land that's their problem.  It's not anyone else's place to step in and do anything. 

All throughout history land was won and lost.  That's the way life is.  Empires rose and fell.  But hey, while we're all at it, why not give America back to the Native Americans?  After all, they were here first and they believed their gods led them here.  Then Europeans came over on ships and said 'this place looks nice, let's take it'.  Though somehow, I don't think that will ever happen, so what makes the Jews so special?  For the UN to say to the Palestinians that God said this piece of land belongs to the Israelites and they need to hand it over was wrong on so many levels. 

Though ranting aside, I do hope some sort of peace arrangement can be reached and kept.  What's done is done, and innocent people don't deserve to suffer for it.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 09:12:07 PM »
Well, prior to the Crusades, Jerusalem - which was considered holy by Christians, Muslims and Jews - actually saw a great deal of cooperation between the religious groups.  It wasn't until the big push to 'take back the Holy Land' that things went to hell there (pardon the expression).

You've got your history right, CA.  There even seems to have been a Palestinian state that Britain had some kind of jurisdiction over just prior to the creation of Israel, so the idea that there wasn't a Palestinian nation looks like a matter of semantics.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 10:16:07 AM »
kotah it is very good you see that im glad some do

foreign policies that america holds does not encourage 'freedom' for others
America is the most anti-'free trade' agent that exists
America has not been an 'ally' in any traditional sense for a long time

not because Americans are bad people - but simply your government did what you voted them in for.. effectively you all voted for those that

"could make the nation rich and powerful" - it worked.

for Americans to be rich - you have to be comparatively rich (exhange rates etc)
if you want to be powerful - you had to be relatively powerful - and depriving those that may otherwise have influence for non-pro-American actions is part of the solution - in many regards a larger and more important part than self-growth.

Simple.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:20:13 AM by Kate »

Offline Kotah

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 11:43:27 AM »
Seriously.

We are just digging a big hole in the middle east.

Eventually the Gaza strip is just going to be a parking lot for American tourists.

"and here is where the atom bomb fell...."

It is impossible for me to believe, really, that with the way the US is going at this right now... We are ever going to be any help to any other country in the world. We pretty much bent over Latin America, and told them to take it. Now that some of the leaders are shutting us down, we get all offended. Oh! the anti-American rhetoric! Seriously? We pretty much destroyed any hope that most of Latin America has of having an economy. Much the same with the middle east.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 12:47:49 PM »
kotah it is very good you see that im glad some do

foreign policies that america holds does not encourage 'freedom' for others
America is the most anti-'free trade' agent that exists
America has not been an 'ally' in any traditional sense for a long time

not because Americans are bad people - but simply your government did what you voted them in for.. effectively you all voted for those that

"could make the nation rich and powerful" - it worked.

for Americans to be rich - you have to be comparatively rich (exhange rates etc)
if you want to be powerful - you had to be relatively powerful - and depriving those that may otherwise have influence for non-pro-American actions is part of the solution - in many regards a larger and more important part than self-growth.

Simple.

American's are rich? Not too sure about that. (The euro is what to the dollar? 1 to 2? Higher?)

And I don't think ANY first line nation should wave the free trade flag. Europe is a major subsidies hole for their companies (how many governments are supplementing/subsidizing Airbus?)

As for the Israel/Palastine thing.. I think a LOT of countries need to be involved in that (it's called the UN.. they should step up and do something)

Offline Serephino

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 08:46:27 PM »
Sure, the Euro is stronger now, but it didn't used to be.  I remember going to Niagra Falls for my birthday one year and on the Canadian sighed my mom bought me a watch that back home would've cost like $40 at home for $15.  I have a 1996 Almanac that had conversion charts for every currency in the world and it was like 1 Frank equaled 19 cents.

But something happened.  We got too arrogant and greedy.  Now it's our economy that's in the toilet.  And we still think it's our job to police the world, which pisses me off to no end.  Basically, the US is the modern version of the Roman Empire, and it too will fall.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2009, 07:06:19 AM »
i mean america rich (america doesnt really care that much for equal dispersion of wealth- suggestions to are quickly called communism there - ironic though as denmark etc who are very wealthy and have a high standard of living - excellent health system and dispersed wealth are not communists - ( more socialists ))

I'm not saying other countries dont do the tarriff subsity protect their own industry thing / its just that america claims it stands for free trade

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2009, 07:45:47 AM »
Palistine was never a nation. The areas of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golian Heights were parts of the nations around Israel that were conquired in wars started against Israel.  I'm always wondering why people think the Palastinians ever had a nation to start with.  Their land was from 3 different nations, not one.
     In political science, a nation means a group of people who are recognized as having enough commonalities to potentially form a state.  A state typically refers to a collection of people holding territory, sovereignty, and (less uniformly) some concept of defense.  With that...  In my limited understanding:

The Roma have not had a state, but they have been known for a distinctive identity as a people for centuries.  Likewise, most of the Jews that now live in Israel immigrated from groups that have spent centuries as minorities in other regions.

The Kurds
are a recognized ethnic group (many would say "nation"), but they are parceled out among at least three modern states (Turkey, Syria and Iraq).  I don't know offhand what, if anything, they managed to hold as a state before that...  The US has been more or less happy to use them as a sort of counterweight to Bathists etc. in Iraq (if a historically quite expendable one), and more recently to leave their semi-autonomous status intact - so apparently they have provisional international standing...   

The Uighurs (Turkmens?) did have a recognized country, known as East Turkmenistan, in what is now more or less Xinjiang, China - but who else is complaining...  And the Tibetans are generally recognized as a nation, but now they don't have much of a state (unless perhaps you count the government in exile).

Palestine? There were some back and forth in the region up until colonial times, which I couldn't explain without looking it up...  The Palestinians did live on that land before modern Israel, give or take the influence of British colonialism sweeping through (were there others?).

USA...  Most of the land of the present United States originally was occupied, for quite some time, by Native American tribes.  If the Palestinians' land, according to this, belonged historically to others, well doesn't ours as well?

     So bluntly...  When you say "never a nation" (and I think you mean "never a state"), I don't see how that leads automatically to any conclusion.  I don't think the discussion should be all about reverting strictly to the 1940's or some other point, nor about only favoring those with the "right" sort of international recognition - or the right sort of weapons.  There must be some other ways of imagining how to go forward.

     I'm inclined to think that a nation (i.e. a distinctive people) being denied security, equality, infrastructure and land on top of it all, in the region where most of its recent history lies, is a non-starter.  So I thought Obama was onto something about pushing to freeze the settlements.  I do get the impression Israel has a strong lobby and it is kind of a convenient symbolic focus for American fundamentalists, as well...  Biblical references, plus a country that seems to act more stubborn than American rightists can get away with consistently?  It's also obviously a busy sink for defense contract money.  Perhaps a romantic and brave people (and there are many of those around) with some interesting cultural effects on the US -- but not a moral paragon.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 07:51:45 AM by kylie »

Offline Zakharra

Re: America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 10:00:17 AM »
 Nation = state. The terms are used interchangably (sp) in today's world.  Most people see no difference. Tibet was a seperate nation/state before the chinese conquered it. I think you are confusing culture with a soverign nation. The Roma are a culture, but not a nation. Jews have a culture, but only one nation. Palastine was a region. NOT a nation or state.

 The UN is the United Nations. Not the United States.