Trump's Second Term

[TheGlyphstone]

Project 2025 is about 50% complete. It's been about 6 months since he was sworn in. Regardless of his own personal incompetence, and that odd some of the figureheads he's installed, things are clipping along horrifically fast.

Very much so. Trump and his circus of imbeciles is loud, angry theatre that distracts everyone from the damage that is being done to liberty and democracy.

[Sofia Grace]

Very much so. Trump and his circus of imbeciles is loud, angry theatre that distracts everyone from the damage that is being done to liberty and democracy.

Precisely the plan. 

[CyranoDeBergerac]

Sasha Grey made a tiktok saying 'yeah, there's no Epstein client list and I'm a virgin.' which seems like the perfect cross-point of this forum's interests.

[Kristen]

A friend of mine who is spending a year in Spain has become absolutely horrified by what they've seen. I'm Canadian but my friend will be moving back to the States soon and she's so grateful that Trump is willing to tackle the immigration issue. In Spain my friend (and the people she's seen there) feel really strongly about what's going on. They feel like even though 70% (might be a bit higher?) approve of deporting people... there's this openness in the air about migrant communities invading and replacing (and asserting themselves?) over existing communities?

Where I live in a small, fairly quiet part of Canada I really only see a lot of this online, but I can imagine it's pretty scary for people who live there. But then you'll get a lot of over-reactions the other way, which come from a place of people feeling threatened. I think that when you see situations like this, it lends itself to people understanding why people take stands on something like immigration. 

I'll have to look more into it, but so far what I've seen makes me feel like I understand more about why Trump campaigned on the sense of: "This is it. If we don't take a stand here and get our act together with immigration, the numbers will sway so out of whack that we'll lose the country altogether."

And maybe it'll resolve quickly... I don't know. I never got to meet the people my friend met over there, but I'm hoping they stay safe.

[SaintSicaire]

A friend of mine who is spending a year in Spain has become absolutely horrified by what they've seen. I'm Canadian but my friend will be moving back to the States soon and she's so grateful that Trump is willing to tackle the immigration issue. In Spain my friend (and the people she's seen there) feel really strongly about what's going on. They feel like even though 70% (might be a bit higher?) approve of deporting people... there's this openness in the air about migrant communities invading and replacing (and asserting themselves?) over existing communities?

Where I live in a small, fairly quiet part of Canada I really only see a lot of this online, but I can imagine it's pretty scary for people who live there. But then you'll get a lot of over-reactions the other way, which come from a place of people feeling threatened. I think that when you see situations like this, it lends itself to people understanding why people take stands on something like immigration.

I'll have to look more into it, but so far what I've seen makes me feel like I understand more about why Trump campaigned on the sense of: "This is it. If we don't take a stand here and get our act together with immigration, the numbers will sway so out of whack that we'll lose the country altogether."

And maybe it'll resolve quickly... I don't know. I never got to meet the people my friend met over there, but I'm hoping they stay safe.

Sooo.... Asmongold is an american WoW-streamer, so maybe not the best source for news from spain.
(elpais.com and elmundo.es are two of the biggest spanish newspapers....not sure if El Mundo has an english version, though)

From what I could gather so far, what happened is, that a retiree was mugged by some teenagers, he thinks, were north-african and then people started to riot and attack people, who had mostly been living legally and peacefully there for years. Which I do find worrying, but not because of illegal immigrants. 

I do understand,  if people feel scared or threarened, but in most cases, that's not founded on facts, but on fearmongering by people working for their own gain.

That aside, while I'm not spanish, I've heard right-wing people from the US tell that kind of tall tale about societal collapse about Germany before and I wish they would stop.

If you want to bolster your anti-immigration argument, at least take an example from your own country.

I don't mean to sound aggressive but this kind of "WTF is going on in Europe???"- content, made by Americans, with very little knowledgeabout the country in question really grinds my gears.
Don't let dumbasses like that scare you. If you only hear about things like that online, there might be a reason....

[Beorning]

Speaking of fear-mongering, we're having a sharp increase in this type of thing here in Poland, too.

And it's not based on facts or logic, either. Recently, there was a case of a young Polish woman being brutally murdered by a foreigner. This was true - it happened and it was a tragedy, yes. But... our right-wingers latched onto it, shouting: "See! This is what immigrants do! We must stop all those Africans and Muslims trying to sneak into our country illegally! They are from a foreign, barbaric culture! They are dangerous!!!". Meanwhile? The murderer was from Venezuela (a Catholic country, I believe). And he got to Poland legally, with a tourist visa. So, no, he wasn't an immigrant, really.

There were others examples of fear-mongering. Like the time when a PiS MP shared a photo of a crowd of Muslims gathering before a mosque with the comment in the vein of "So many of them in Poland this year! It's an invasion!". Meanwhile, it was a photo taken during a specific Muslim festival that's been going on for years. So... no wonder there was a crowd of Muslims there at the time? Another example involved the right-wing media circulating photos of naked African men, taken in some place in Poland, with the comment about "dangerous African perverts on the loose" (or something like that). Meanwhile, these naked men were victims of human trafficking - and they were naked, because the gangsters took away their clothes...

So, yeah. It's worth double-checking such information. Especially if it comes from sources such as Asmongold... He's a gaming streaming, not a journalist (and a bizarre person in general).

Also, Saint Sicare is right in that, overall, American right-wingers tend to talk BS about Europe. Remember how JD Vance came to Europe a few months ago and tried to lecture our leaders about free speech?

[Kristen]

Thank you both very much. Asmongold and Vaush are two people I listen to youtube quite a bit on, but aside from that all I heard was from the first person account of my friend (who was telling me horrific things based on her experience there). Personally I don't go to Spain and my friend doesn't upload content or anything like that, so everything I hear just comes from her experiences there. She's generally not someone I've ever thought was easily scared but this has really had an impact on her and she says she can't wait to get to America heh.

Looking forward to knowing more about it soon.

[Kristen]

If you want to bolster your anti-immigration argument, at least take an example from your own country.

I don't mean to sound aggressive but this kind of "WTF is going on in Europe???"- content, made by Americans, with very little knowledgeabout the country in question really grinds my gears.
Don't let dumbasses like that scare you. If you only hear about things like that online, there might be a reason....

When I was very young, in school we'd seen an interview that I have to admit got me thinking about immigration at a very young age. It was hard for me to find the whole interview but there was a snippet of it here I recognize. 

Granted this was not in my 'Province' but listening to this man really put things in perspective for me.

[Kristen]

(Wanted to put a more comprehensive one I managed to find, realized it couldn't be edited, sorry!) :)

(So when I watched things like this way back when... we had two debate points. One was: "If you agree with him, excellent. If you disagree with him, write him off as a troll or don't take what he says seriously. Don't do anything about it.") It made me aware of this thought that: "If nothing comes of this, and it's just fear-mongering, then fine. But if it turns out to be a credible threat, and we didn't act on it... then don't complain when it's too late later." etc.

Was a very young age to have this debate, granted heh.

[SaintSicaire]

When I was very young, in school we'd seen an interview that I have to admit got me thinking about immigration at a very young age. It was hard for me to find the whole interview but there was a snippet of it here I recognize.

Granted this was not in my 'Province' but listening to this man really put things in perspective for me.

Honest question: Have YOU personally, ever met someone like that? And what makes you think this specific guy is in any way representative?


I know a fair number muslims, since we have quite a few people from the middle east living here. Most are decent people. The percentage of bigoted asshats among them is non-zero, but that number is non-zero in any slice of the population.

I can only repeat: Don't let dumbasses scare you with cherry-picked tidbits like that. And check your sources: Rebel News is a far-right platform with pretty openly anti-muslim views.

[TheGlyphstone]

(Wanted to put a more comprehensive one I managed to find, realized it couldn't be edited, sorry!) :)

(So when I watched things like this way back when... we had two debate points. One was: "If you agree with him, excellent. If you disagree with him, write him off as a troll or don't take what he says seriously. Don't do anything about it.") It made me aware of this thought that: "If nothing comes of this, and it's just fear-mongering, then fine. But if it turns out to be a credible threat, and we didn't act on it... then don't complain when it's too late later." etc.

Was a very young age to have this debate, granted heh.

I think the logical rebuttal would be "If 'doing something' causes real actual harm to people who are innocent of any wrongdoing as collateral, is that an acceptable consequence of not ignoring a potential threat? And does that change if it does turn out to be fear-mongering and there was no danger in the first place?'

[Kristen]

Honest question: Have YOU personally, ever met someone like that? And what makes you think this specific guy is in any way representative?


I know a fair number muslims, since we have quite a few people from the middle east living here. Most are decent people. The percentage of bigoted asshats among them is non-zero, but that number is non-zero in any slice of the population.

I can only repeat: Don't let dumbasses scare you with cherry-picked tidbits like that. And check your sources: Rebel News is a far-right platform with pretty openly anti-muslim views.

Hi again!

I have... but I admit I've only met a few people like that. My experience with them is relatively small compared to the number of people I meet who aren't like that. I will be 100% honest with you however and state that the relatively few people I've met like that scare me more than the 99% of people I haven't met like that (if that makes sense?).

In a sense, what concerns me is that the people I've met like that genuinely believe what they say and I've had friends I've lost who've gone to Europe and suffered to violence like this. So I end up with this situation of:

- I don't want to be considered intolerant or resentful, but I also genuinely fear an outcome where people I've met like this outright tell me they look forward to this outcome.

- But then I also can't bring myself to just pretend I don't believe these people mean it or that I don't believe they'd make this possible if they had the opportunity.

As a result, I have never been to Europe, and the people I've talked to here have never had the 'ability' to do what they express they want to do (but they tell me that it will happen eventually). So for me... there is this natural concern that says: "Okay well... I personally wouldn't be on board with it..." and I've even had one of these people I know tell me: "It doesn't matter if you're on board with it now. When the time comes, you will be." And upon my asking why, he told me: "Well you wouldn't actively oppose it, right?" (to which I said no, I'm not a violent sort of person heh)... and he said: "Exactly. So when those who 'will' oppose it are outnumbered and silenced or done away with, what do you think you're going to do when you're told how things will be?"

It really did provoke some thought for me. And in a sense I'm sure he's right. I'm just not the sort of person who'd actively fight something like this (or never thought I would) but I'm also exactly the kind of person who'd wish it had been fought before it gets to that point. And luckily for me... I'm probably old enough by now that I won't live to see the day these people are talking about. I think that's why when I see someone take a stand in the way Trump does... part of me feels a bit of a resounding calm about it. Someone willing to make this stand.

But another thing I end up being conflicted over is exactly the thing you'd say here.

- When these people tell me this... I do believe them. I have no reason not to. I know they believe it, and I wouldn't presume to say they don't. I personally don't like the idea of that outcome but I know they do.

- So then the question comes up: "Well so what if they believe that? It's 10 people. 20 people. 500 people. There are billions of people in the world." etc. So then my conflict is: "Do I simply say to myself that because this person is saying out loud the very thing I'm horrified about, do I just tell myself I can't help it and do nothing about it? Do I tell myself it doesn't matter that they say it? Do I tell myself "just because it's a small amount, doesn't mean it's serious, so treat everyone as though this mindset isn't out there?"

- Then I go down the rabbit hole: "Well if I'm concerned about this, am I equally concerned about outrageous conspiracies? Do I treat all these concerns equally? Do I say to myself that just because some conspiracies seem more audacious and unbelievable, that all conspiracies are equally unbelievable? At what point do I fall into this line of: "what-about-ism" where I say: "Well I might not like what I hear here... but I won't do anything about it because I'm not doing anything about a bunch of things... so I'll just choose to believe it's not an issue." Or "If it becomes serious enough, other people will take care of it."

Of course... when I get to thinking that way, I'm reminded of the person who told me that "I'm not the kind of person who'd actively oppose something like this... so I'm exactly the kind of person who will fall in line when the ones who 'do' are dealt with." There's something very sobering about hearing that heh. Even though it's kind of said from a place of 'friendship' on their part? This idea of: "I know that when the time comes, you'll comply" or "When the time comes, you'll be fine because you'll submit. You'll be okay. The ones who have to worry are the ones who'll go down fighting, and when they go down fighting, a lot of others will fall in line."

(I am paraphrasing a number of these lines as it's been awhile since I've heard it, and again, in all truthfulness... these conversations were with relatively small numbers of people who don't actually have (in my mind) the power to bring about what they're talking about, but it just sticks with me how much they believe it's coming and how actively they believe it's the goal.

It could also very well be that these kind of interactions I've had have made me someone very susceptible to a 'strong man' leader hehe. Someone willing to preserve things, someone willing to take a stand. In a sense I could find myself on the wrong side of an opinion or a thought just because this is the first fear or concern I've really struggled with from a young age and have been exposed to for awhile. It's something I've taken seriously (when others may feel it's not that serious) so to me... the fear of being wrong about it is a very real thought that I've struggled with. That being: "If they're wrong and it never happens, fine. But if they're right, and I just never believed it... then what?" and so I'm more prone to the concern that comes from not doing anything, and then wishing I had before it was too late. Rather than someone else who might say: "This is an illogical fear, it would never happen, but hey, even if it does happen, it's fine, it's just the way of the world." etc.

I'm probably not explaining things very clearly here hehe. I've been awake for 32 hours and I have to work overnight tonight so I've been on a bit of a blurb. Sorry for how disorganized the thoughts here are. All in all a part of me gets very prickly whenever I see videos of mass violence or 'immigrant crime waves' and I know that there are two sides to the concern. I've seen heard immigrants who outright tell me things that scare me, but I feel like I don't see those things in my streets, so my concern level is lowered where I live. But I do believe what they say they believe. And then when I see events happen around the world that mirror or resemble the kinds of things these people tell me they are anticipating... I think to myself: "Well it's over there, it's not here." but that's still not a very comforting thought. Having friends who've gone to Europe and been hurt by situations like that make it hit home a little more.

And then I just have those thoughts of: "Well, even if what they say is scary and I don't agree with it... it's a small number saying it, so does that make it any less valid? There are tonnes more who don't say those things or hold those beliefs, but here I am concerned about the few that do." etc.

I'm a bit older too (born in 1988 heh) so I'm reaching this point where it could just be luck of the draw in who I talk to and what they say, then there's the content I watch and so I find myself more firmly on one side of the argument than the other. My father was recently diagnosed with Dementia, I look after my nephews and niece, I work my healthcare (long term care) job in my community and so I tend to find myself in this little 'nest' in my life where I feel like I'll probably be long gone by the time my fears are realized. And if they're proven to have been wrong all along... that's great too! In the meantime, when I see stories like this, videos... etc... there's this defensive mechanism that pops up to say: "What about the motive of the person who made that video? What about the interests behind the people spreading that message? What about the fact that other things are happening too? Yeah that all looks bad but... don't worry about it, maybe it's not as bad as you think." etc. And so by contrast when I see the messages or cries of people saying: "Why won't someone do something about this?" or "Why won't someone put a stop to this?" (or even: "the reaction to this is going to be such an over-reaction that it's going to be equally bad the other way.") seeing someone stand up and say: "We're not going to let this happen." or "We're not going to have empathy weaponized against us." or "We're going to govern by law and order." then that message resonates really strongly compared to the visuals of rioting and looting and chaos of that sort.

(Sorry for the massive word salad here heh. Just a complete jumble of thoughts plopped down in a big post when I should be asleep before my shift hehe-!)

Thank you both so much for your responses!

[Krayz]

@Kristen 

There is a lot going on in that last post, it's difficult to try and respond to all of it, so I'm going to focus on what seem to be the key points. If you feel like something important has not been addressed, please let me know and I'll try to cover that as well.

Yes, there will always be bad individuals within any given population group, as @SaintSicaire has addressed. 

But it's important to question whether or not they represent a significant portion of the group. And also whether or not the 'threat' is actually being ignored, or if reasonable and appropriate measures are in place to address it. As a Canadian, you might remember that the Conservatives (shortly before losing power) were talking about setting up a "barbaric cultural practices" hotline. One of the criticisms I remember being leveled against that was that there were already pre-existing options available that you could contact for support, making it more of a redundant dog-whistle for bigots.

Looking at the sources you've provided thus far discussing the potential threat posed by dangerous immigrants, my personal experience is that they are broadly untrustworthy. As noted above, Rebel News is a far-right propaganda outlet. I don't know much about Asmongold or Vaush, but pretty much all of my secondhand experience leads me to think that they're at least kind of shitty people, and Asmongold in particular is ignorant and way outside his wheelhouse when talking about anything bigger than how to play a videogame.

If these are the people telling you that we have to do something before it's "too late," then I'd recommend looking for some more objective sources on the issue to get a different side of the story.

On the subject of shitty and ignorant bigots, Donald Trump, the subject of this thread.

As @TheGlyphstone noted, even if you think that there is an imminent threat, you have to consider whether or not the response you are considering is worth the cost. And in the case of Donald Trump, the 'cost' is the potential destruction of democracy itself. His administration has consistently shown contempt for the rule of law and the rights of citizens; most recently, he has discussed the idea of unconstitutionally removing the citizenship of Rosie O'Donnell, who is notably not an immigrant, purely on the basis of a personal feud that they have (and as a distraction from the recent drama around the 'Epstein Files').

Setting aside Trump's personal despotism, you have to look at the wider project that his followers are pursuing: Project 2025. They want to destroy the rights of women and LGBTQ+ people. They want to destroy the government's ability to hold corporations and the ultra-wealthy accountable. They pretty much want to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy, it's "The Handmaid's Tale" shit.

Even if you have concerns about some kind of malevolent immigrant invasion destroying your country from without, is it worth it to instead let it be destroyed from within by a bunch of misogynistic fascists?

[Vekseid]

When I was very young, in school we'd seen an interview that I have to admit got me thinking about immigration at a very young age. It was hard for me to find the whole interview but there was a snippet of it here I recognize.

Granted this was not in my 'Province' but listening to this man really put things in perspective for me.

I think liberals and progressives have plenty to answer for in ignoring Islamism. If there is one thing the past ten years have taught me, it's that people are all too willing to bury their true feelings on a subject for fear of social stigma. For every Muslim who speaks like this openly and in public, how many think it privately? Even some Muslim members on this forum get rather squirrelly when I try to sus out their true feelings on these matters. They are, superficially, pleasant, wonderful people.

I am not going to pretend that is okay. 

That said, I also think they (liberals/progressives) deserve credit for not surrendering to Islamism, unlike the 'right' and 'conservatives' of the now. The right in the Anglosphere, Europe, and Russosphere are all simultaneously raising the white flag and announcing that, though they are fully aware of the Islamists' strategy, they will do nothing whatsoever to counter it.

A real policy for dealing with this would either involve measures ensuring such immigrants genuinely integrated into society, or abandon economic policies that require immigration to be properly sustained. There are a few cases in Europe where the former is being done, see Denmark, but note that it's the left in Denmark doing this. Not the right.

The modern right is after power, they are not currently about solving problems.

Even if it is intentional as a means to cultivate and maintain power, it is still a stunning lack of foresight.

Hardline Muslims support Trump over Democrats - and not out of ignorance.

You can look up interviews with them as far back as 2016 - they believe Trump's election sets a precedent. It may be bad for them now, bad for their children, possibly even their grandchildren.

Eventually, however, the numbers of western Christians and conservatives will become irrelevant, under current socioeconomic policies. The Islamists believe they will eventually win votes, and from there, the precedent Trump and the Supreme Court is setting in the United States now will be used for the Islamist takeover of the United States in a century's time.

Until very recently, the idea was the US could coast through on 'American Exceptionalism' - careful immigration policies that absorbed the best and brightest from the world over. On the high end, the US picks and chooses the best and brightest from the world over and integrates them with remarkable effect into American society.

On the lower end, tolerating undocumented immigration from (Christian!) countries worked to keep prices low with a steady supply of labor for the jobs that many Americans would otherwise refuse to do. I am not speaking to the morality of this - this was its purpose. After all, if the right in the US actually wanted to solve this, they'd punish the employers. Which almost never seems to happen, for some reason. I wonder why.

Regardless of what you think of it, Trump has destroyed this plan.

With nothing to replace it.

[Oniya]

https://apnews.com/article/trump-indians-redskins-guardians-commanders-8863d8d95f56414f0f74cab0e897a93f

The Micromanager in Chief just can't stop being a petty bitch.  The Commanders have a deal in place to make a new stadium on the site of the old RFK stadium.  The land has already been transferred to city (as opposed to federal) control.  But Trump wants the old names back on both the Cleveland baseball and Washington football teams.

The 'big clamoring' just doesn't exist.

[Al Terego]

Can somebody explain to me how the hell over 77 million people voted for this fuck?

I can't wait for AGI to take over.

[Beorning]

https://apnews.com/article/trump-indians-redskins-guardians-commanders-8863d8d95f56414f0f74cab0e897a93f

The Micromanager in Chief just can't stop being a petty bitch.  The Commanders have a deal in place to make a new stadium on the site of the old RFK stadium.  The land has already been transferred to city (as opposed to federal) control.  But Trump wants the old names back on both the Cleveland baseball and Washington football teams.

The 'big clamoring' just doesn't exist.

This really seems to be Trump's attempt at distracting people from the Epstein list...

[Laughing Hyena]

This really seems to be Trump's attempt at distracting people from the Epstein list...

This reality show sucks. Can we change the channel? Also, yes this stunt is definitely him trying to distract from that list.

As for the Commanders and the arena, first off according to the article the deal was already done and the property was already transferred to the District of Columbia so it's now in small governments hands.

So Trump shouldn't be able to do much about it. In fact the spending is in the Mayors hands with oversight by Congress. Of course things have been surprising me more and more these days. 

The Washington Commanders just got rid of one form of cancer in Dan Synder. A guy that took all dignity, respect and name from this football team all for a culture of fear and self fufillment and milked the fanbase and franchise for everything they were worth. And now they got another cancer trying to take everything from them.