War: Russia vs. Ukraine?

[Vekseid]

Russia is more than Putin, and right now his most likely replacements are ultra-nationalists, or are going to have to appease them.

[Azuresun]

Some have speculated that the British government's enthusiasm for arming Ukraine in its struggle against Russia might have an element of 'settling scores'. Have to admit, it's not an idea I can wholeheartedly dismiss.

That, and we have a certain empathy with a nation standing alone against a horde of genocidal fascists.

Does anyone want to speculate how triggering Article 5 against a country with the largest nuclear stockpile will play out?

The thing is, the Cold War mentality about nuclear weapons is outdated. Back then, overt nuclear threats were incredibly rare even though they were always implicit, and the understanding was that open conflict had to be avoided at all costs to avoid a nuclear exchange.

That's not the case any more. Russia is awesomely irresponsible in terms of nuclear threats, breaking them out routinely and giving state TV full reign to present wild fantasies about glassing Europe. Russia's policy is to make extreme threats and count on somebody in the West backing down and letting them keep at least part of what they stole.

Allowing nuclear threats to be ANY sort of factor in the West's response sends the message to Putin that "this is what makes them back down and let me take what I want, so let's do that again". Cue a frozen war in Ukraine to stop NATO membership, and Russia coming back for the rest later just like they did in Chechnya. It also tells every other tinpot dictator that you should get some nukes, since they let you bully your neighbours with impunity.

[Chulanowa]

I've just sortof accepted Chula is a tankie and for some reason this means supporting Russia even though it's a cartoon mafia state. I think it's more about 'the West is always wrong' than Russia being right, per se. Still.

Yeah I got this sort of response when I told people to be more critical of the claims presented about Iraq in 2003, too.

"You support Saddam Hussein!"
"You just hate America!'
"You want the terrorists to win!"

You know what's really interesting Veksied?

All of them were just as convinced as you are that the war they wanted so so so badly would go perfectly to plan, too. Quick and easy and painless. There was even the same two-month estimate that you offer up! They wrote up scripts, just like you did, and well, they were just absolutely shocked when things didn't go according to plan. "No one could have predicted this!" were the literal words used. I would say it's hilarious, except those dorks got a lot of people killed.

Anyway, as someone who has a rather visceral reaction to dehumanization, I'm getting the feeling this is not a thread I should participate in further.

[Regina Minx]

You know what's really interesting Veksied?

All of them were just as convinced as you are that the war they wanted so so so badly would go perfectly to plan, too. Quick and easy and painless. There was even the same two-month estimate that you offer up! They wrote up scripts, just like you did, and well, they were just absolutely shocked when things didn't go according to plan. "No one could have predicted this!" were the literal words used. I would say it's hilarious, except those dorks got a lot of people killed.

I am really struggling to find in Vekseid's discussion about what a NATO-led campaign against Russia would look like unwarranted confidence that it would proceed exactly according to plan, in a quick and easy and painless manner. The only two-month prediction was a small component of the overall strategic objective, a 'campaign of removing Russia's ability to exert control over the air' by attacking air defense and jets/drones/conventional missiles that Russia attempts to put in the air.

I just don't get the sense that you're arguing this in anything close to good faith if your takeaway from Vek's post is 'war against Russia will be quick and easy and over fast like two-months fast'.

[Azuresun]

Yeah I got this sort of response when I told people to be more critical of the claims presented about Iraq in 2003, too.

"You support Saddam Hussein!"
"You just hate America!'
"You want the terrorists to win!"

You know what's really interesting Veksied?

All of them were just as convinced as you are that the war they wanted so so so badly would go perfectly to plan, too. Quick and easy and painless. There was even the same two-month estimate that you offer up! They wrote up scripts, just like you did, and well, they were just absolutely shocked when things didn't go according to plan. "No one could have predicted this!" were the literal words used. I would say it's hilarious, except those dorks got a lot of people killed.

Anyway, as someone who has a rather visceral reaction to dehumanization, I'm getting the feeling this is not a thread I should participate in further.

And there we go. A country that lied about something a generation ago can never be trusted again. But we should always give Russia the benefit of the doubt, even when the the Ukranians are trying to tell you over and over that no, actually Russia really IS this bad, and Russia itself is openly bragging about their atrocities and their genocidal intentions.

You want to talk about dehumanisation? Enjoy these shining examples of Russian civilisation, and then try to whatabout or equivocate on behalf of a fascist terrorist state.

Example 1

Example 2 (TW: Sexual violence and mutilation)

And Example 3:




If you're not condemning Russia, you support it. Neutrality is always a statement of support for the aggressor.

[Vekseid]

Yeah I got this sort of response when I told people to be more critical of the claims presented about Iraq in 2003, too.

"You support Saddam Hussein!"
"You just hate America!'
"You want the terrorists to win!"

You know what's really interesting Veksied?

That you won't find evidence of me supporting the Iraq war anywhere?

Why should Ukrainians pay for America's sins?

All of them were just as convinced as you are that the war they wanted so so so badly would go perfectly to plan, too. Quick and easy and painless. There was even the same two-month estimate that you offer up!

As mentioned I only gave a timetable for the campaign for air supremacy. And that under this campaign Ukraine would recover a fair amount of lost territory sans Crimea, because ground forces are already in position fighting for it.

Establishing air supremacy before engaging in ground operations is the basics of American war doctrine. It is how we approach every conflict.

You want to laugh at Americans, go look up some of the volunteers who were not experienced or trained in lacking air superiority. Then compare them to Finnish volunteers.

In theory, Russia has been aware of this. In theory, Russia has been preparing for this. The Soviets made so much S-300 ammunition they're using it on ground targets.

But they've spent most of those resources already, and are fighting as if NATO will never be involved.

They wrote up scripts, just like you did, and well, they were just absolutely shocked when things didn't go according to plan. "No one could have predicted this!" were the literal words used. I would say it's hilarious, except those dorks got a lot of people killed.

It went pretty much how a lot of people expected. The US steamrolls conventional military opposition and gets bogged down in an insurgency. The US had no clear political objective for staying there, it was ultimately pointless. With no concrete goals, it was just an expensive export of pain and suffering.

The funny thing is, Russia has done everything they can to depoliticize their own population.

They're trying to depoliticize the West in the same way. "Nothing matters" "Both sides"

Political objectives matter for people, to. If no one in Russia cares, no one in Russia cares. Who will fight for Russia? Not a whole lot of Russians, apparently.

Anyway, as someone who has a rather visceral reaction to dehumanization, I'm getting the feeling this is not a thread I should participate in further.

You appear to be confusing condemnation of Russian atrocities and corruption for dehumanization. The difference being, Russians choose to conduct, support, or ignore it. It is a moral choice they have made. The wrong one.

Either that or you are just not comfortable confronting the fact Russia does it.

[Al Terego]

Dehumanization is exactly what Russia is involved in.  Castrations, torture, murder of civilians...  No human being in their right mind will do that to fellow humans, even if they are "the enemy".  They must be viewed as inhuman (or subhuman) to justify such acts.

[Azuresun]

Recently, the dirty cowards of Russia murdered eleven people and injured sixty others when they quite knowingly attacked a pizza restaurant in Kramatorsk. The victims included a young baby. And then this is what Russians had to say about it.

Some Westerners actually defend these people.

[Vekseid]

Murdered a lot more than eleven.

What is going on in Russian occupied Ukraine is genocide.

[Al Terego]

What is going on in Russian occupied Ukraine is genocide.

And nobody is going to do anything about it.

[Keelan]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/07/13/ordering-the-selected-reserve-and-certain-members-of-the-individual-ready-reserve-of-the-armed-forces-to-active-duty/

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 121 and 12304 of title 10, United States Code, I hereby determine that it is necessary to augment the active Armed Forces of the United States for the effective conduct of Operation Atlantic Resolve in and around the United States European Command’s area of responsibility.  In furtherance of this operation, under the stated authority, I hereby authorize the Secretary of Defense, and the Secretary of Homeland Security with respect to the Coast Guard when it is not operating as a service in the Navy, under their respective jurisdictions, to order to active duty any units, and any individual members not assigned to a unit organized to serve as a unit of the Selected Reserve, or any member in the Individual Ready Reserve mobilization category and designated as essential under regulations prescribed by the Secretary concerned, not to exceed 3,000 total members at any one time, of whom not more than 450 may be members of the Individual Ready Reserve, as they deem necessary, and to terminate the service of those units and members ordered to active duty.

     This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

                             JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.
 

THE WHITE HOUSE,
July 13, 2023.

[Al Terego]

That's one hell of a run off sentence :)

[Oniya]

Not as bad as the one in Les Mis.  Prepositional phrases can really pack on the verbiage. 

*is briefly tempted to diagram it*

[TheGlyphstone]

Anyone have any idea what we need more troops for?

[Oniya]

Here's the report from the military news: 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/07/13/biden-allows-pentagon-tap-reservists-european-mission-amid-ukraine-war.html

[Skyguy]

At this point I think the Russian war plan is to just drag things out and hope that the West gets tired of supporting Ukraine and cuts them off, then Ukraine will negotiate and let them have what they’ve taken. They have no real offensive capability at this point. Wagner’s implosion strips them of one of their better assault units. The Kharkiv offensive and collapse cost them a huge number of their most up to date tanks and experienced formations. Their winter “offensive” amounted to a small push towards Vulehdar that completely fell flat on its face. At this point the “deep stocks” they’re pulling from amount to 60’s vintage tanks so they can't properly resupply anyone.

The Ukrainian switch to emphasizing counterbattery fire with artillery to start chipping away at Russia’s one big advantage, and their seeming competence at doing so, is incredibly dangerous for Russia. Now, with Ukraine hitting the Kerch bridge again they are making it absolutely clear that they want to sever the Russian lines. Heck, they don’t even have to physically separate them, another fifteen kilometers near Tokmak and the coastal road and rail lines that are the only non-bridge route to get supplies into Crimea are in GMLRs range.

Long story short, I don’t think the Russians can string this one out. Their artillery has been doing the lion’s share of keeping them in this war so far and with Ukraine now actively targeting it, and having the tools to do it, cluster shells are practically made to kill artillery, they’re in trouble. Add in the potential to completely cut off their logistics to the entirety of Crimea and the Kherson region leads me to believe that “Stall and pray for a miracle,” might not be the most viable strategy.

[Al Terego]

The Ukrainian "main" summer counteroffensive is yet to come, and meanwhile Russian troops had time to fortify their positions.

Interesting write-up from recent news:
https://www.ft.com/content/4351d5b0-0888-4b47-9368-6bc4dfbccbf5
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/07/17/ukraine-bides-its-time-its-counteroffensive-trying-stretch-russian-forces-striking.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/07/17/whole-fields-are-filled-with-them-ukraine-counteroffensive-slowed-by-disguised-landmines/

[Beorning]

Putin tries to stir up trouble with a set of lies regarding Poland's history and our "plans" for Ukraine:

https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/07/21/poland-must-be-reminded-its-western-territories-were-gift-from-stalin-says-putin/

[Ironwolf85]

Been a while. Figured I'd drop in on the site and I find this. 

Nearest I can figure from all the open source intelligence stuff it's quite simple.
Vlad's been playing neoliberal boomers for suckers, and our leaders kept appeasing him. Much like with how we were all told the market would turn china into a progressive democracy. We had to just ignore russia slipping deeper and deeper into what is basicly fascism, or at least fascisim adjacent.

The ukraine of 2021 is not the ukraine of 2014. It's reformed the army, scrubbed out some corruption, and begun shifting progressive. This also allowed it to make headway in what was basicly a russian backed civil war. With obama being flip floppy on policy, then trump being an idiot or even friendly, he figured he could pull another crimea.
For our part the US plan was to just not support ukraine and instead fund the inevitable insurgency. Ukraine however failed to fall like everyone predicted, and instead began pushing the russian army back. So, here we are.

I want to remind folks that the propaganda from the russian government is the really effective kind. The kind that tells the truth. But not all of the truth. They'll point out that the policy of shock therapy in the 80s and 90s that US and other western economists did to try and privatize the soviet block lead to the destruction of the economy and the rise of the oligarchs. But it's the oligarchs themselves, including putin, who are saying this. They leave out what they've done to russia, and blame the western powers who created the vaccume they stepped into for the damage they did.

They'll point out the US and EU were incredibly supportive of the euromaiden protests as evidence that there was a secret CIA backed plot... but they'll leave out that their man in kiev had been voted out once before, began arresting opposition after he lost an election, claimed fraud, which is what triggered the protests. His order to fire on crowds, his creation of secret police, and when even the army turned on him, he fled to moscow while stealing the entire ukranian treasury which was deposited in the russian state bank.

Our own media isn't good either, but they haven't lost their minds and gone full jingo. They're more going to point to explosions and scream "the horror" while helpfully telling us as little as possible. So you have to try and get info from people on the ground and sort through it.

[Vekseid]

From its performance over the past month, it hasn't reformed quite so much as we may have liked.

The offensive is apparently doing:

1) Suppress Russian fires (artillery and missiles)
2) Stop suppressing Russian fires for several hours
3) Begin advance after Russians have resumed their positions
4) Get mauled

On a similar note neighboring units are often not coordinating with each other either.

There are calls for the execution of the people planning and executing this. It has gone very poorly. Ukraine will be lucky to reach half of what the US apparently predicted for them in this push.

This war is far from over.

I want to remind folks that the propaganda from the russian government is the really effective kind. The kind that tells the truth.

Nah, they're usually just straight falsehoods. Listen to Lavrov. "We are not attacking Ukraine." The entire runup to the war was a straight run of lie after lie after lie.

Then they commenced the invasion a week after Biden's administration said they would.

At the absolute best they point out something bad the US did, so they should be allowed to do these things too.

What they are objecting to isn't that America has done such horrible things. Each and every nuclear power, declared or not, is responsible for some utterly heinous acts. Each of the initial five are responsible for acts pretty clearly termed as genocide.

What Russia is objecting to is being blocked from further doing these things.

Having their sphere of influence stolen from them (in their view), and reduced from superpower to regional power.

When they were in talks with the EU, they wanted to be weighed as an equal partner to the entirety of the EU. When in talks with NATO, they demand to be on equal footing with NATO, not with any piddling nation inside of it. Because they believe NATO is just an extension of US interests.

Because no one in Europe could possibly be concerned with Russian aggression in their own right. They have to be puppetted by the US to do so.

[Azuresun]

From its performance over the past month, it hasn't reformed quite so much as we may have liked.

The offensive is apparently doing:

1) Suppress Russian fires (artillery and missiles)
2) Stop suppressing Russian fires for several hours
3) Begin advance after Russians have resumed their positions
4) Get mauled[

On a similar note neighboring units are often not coordinating with each other either.

There are calls for the execution of the people planning and executing this. It has gone very poorly. Ukraine will be lucky to reach half of what the US apparently predicted for them in this push.

This war is far from over.

You just used the word "apparently" twice and made a lot of wild claims ("calls for execution" from whom?). Can you pour a bit of hot, delicious sauce over that?

Remember, the Russian disinformation engine is working overtime to portray that the counteroffensive is an abject failure (so you should stop giving Ukraine weapons, it's not like they're having any effct, honest guv). They're working to push this into the mainstream "common sense" or "I heard that" through sheer weight of repetition, because that's what they always do.

Some people just seem to expect that Ukraine should charge headfirst into a heavily mined defensive line without the air offensive the US would use beforehand, and grab huge amounts of territory because it's just that easy. Oh, and that not a single Western vehicle would be destroyed in the process.

[ShadowI]

Unfortunately, we do not live in a good world. Moreover, despite the attempt to comply with the rules by countries, in reality there are no rules. In history, strong countries have always influenced weak ones, and as soon as a strong country weakened, other strong neighbors began to divide it. There was also a division of Poland by the whole of Europe, the Entente wanted to divide the Russian Empire during the Civil War. China was divided by the strongest countries in Europe. There has always been a confrontation between countries. When European countries supported Russia the most! In the Second World War, only now, according to declassified data, we know that after the Second World War, a war was planned against the Soviet Union, they were saved only by the creation of nuclear weapons.

What I am leading to is that there is not a single good country, all countries are thinking about their survival. All countries fought in one way or another and were aggressors. Even the NATO defense Alliance also started aggressive actions on foreign territory.

Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their childrenIs it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.



Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.Before the war, a huge number of people died in the Donbas, Russia forcibly pulled out generals who wanted to continue the civil war, such as Strelkov, and negotiated a truce, and Donbass was supposed to remain the territory of Ukraine. However, as Merkel said, the truce was only temporary until Ukraine was sufficiently combat-ready. Further, before the war, Putin met with the heads of European countries in an attempt to negotiate. As I said earlier, in my vision, there are no good countries, everyone is thinking about their survival. Any war is a tragedy, but which country has not started wars?

[Vekseid]

You just used the word "apparently" twice and made a lot of wild claims ("calls for execution" from whom?). Can you pour a bit of hot, delicious sauce over that?

Remember, the Russian disinformation engine is working overtime to portray that the counteroffensive is an abject failure (so you should stop giving Ukraine weapons, it's not like they're having any effct, honest guv). They're working to push this into the mainstream "common sense" or "I heard that" through sheer weight of repetition, because that's what they always do.

Some people just seem to expect that Ukraine should charge headfirst into a heavily mined defensive line without the air offensive the US would use beforehand, and grab huge amounts of territory because it's just that easy. Oh, and that not a single Western vehicle would be destroyed in the process.

Not talking about Russian sources. The ones I saw calling for death seem to be gone now, but some Ukrainians are very angry.

One of the kinder quotes

Whoever planned this assault should be jailed. I am sorry but I can’t stay silent. Not all commanders are the best and not everything is perfect. But this is complete disaster in planning. I watched this failed attack from multiple drones now. And have no other conclusion that whoever was planning it has to be put to jail immediately.

Tonya Levchuk.

These are people who want to see Ukraine free.

Michael Kofman's July 27th War on the Rocks interview goes over some of the difficulties. "To say the counteroffensive has not gone to plan is to put it mildly."

[inkybus]

Even the NATO defense Alliance also started aggressive actions on foreign territory.

Sauce?

[Azuresun]

Unfortunately, we do not live in a good world. Moreover, despite the attempt to comply with the rules by countries, in reality there are no rules. In history, strong countries have always influenced weak ones, and as soon as a strong country weakened, other strong neighbors began to divide it. There was also a division of Poland by the whole of Europe, the Entente wanted to divide the Russian Empire during the Civil War. China was divided by the strongest countries in Europe. There has always been a confrontation between countries. When European countries supported Russia the most! In the Second World War, only now, according to declassified data, we know that after the Second World War, a war was planned against the Soviet Union, they were saved only by the creation of nuclear weapons.

What I am leading to is that there is not a single good country, all countries are thinking about their survival. All countries fought in one way or another and were aggressors. Even the NATO defense Alliance also started aggressive actions on foreign territory.

Oh hey, it's a concern trolling vatnik. Standard Kremlin-fresh talking points.

"Bothsides have done bad things so you can't judge Russia for murdering civilians, stealing children and engaging in campaigns of rape and torture."
Yes we can. Let's make it loud and clear for the tankie morons in the audience: RUSSIA IS A GENOCIDAL TERRORIST STATE AND NO GOOD PERSON SUPPORTS IT. And no amount of slimy whatabouting will erase that fact.

"The West hates Russia!"
Yeah, and Russia has bent over backwards to justify that hate, by being a toxic anti-democratic stain upon the world that has attacked or vassalised every last one of its neighbours at some point.

Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children

Vatnik bullshit. Pure vatnik bullshit.

You're talking about the astroturf Kremlin-funded insurrection, along with the self-confessed Russians (remember Girkin--yeah, he bragged about single-handedly starting the conflict) there to false flag. Exact same script as in Georgia and Moldova. In Donetsk and Luhansk the Russian forces cause 86% of all war related civilian deaths, as per OHCHR reports. Also, in the invasion, they fucking slaughtered the people of Mariupol, levelling a city that had survived "eight years of war" surprisingly unscathed.

Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.Is it bad that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine now? Of course it's bad, citizens of both countries are dying there. This is a tragedy for the families of both countries. Are we going to condemn Russia? I cannot answer this question, since the war did not affect me, but one day I asked my Ukrainian friends who left the country in 2014: "What do you think about the war," they said, "Finally, they will stop bombing us." After that, I realized that I could no longer have an opinion on the occasion of the war. After all, this family, which lived peacefully, citizens of Ukraine were bombed by other citizens of Ukraine, because of which they were forced to leave the country in order to protect the lives of their children.

This actually makes me less angry, because along with your post history (application to join, very generic responses) it makes it obvious you're a bot. That's good, any real human who would simp for a fascist terrorist state is the lowest of the low.

Before the war, a huge number of people died in the Donbas, Russia forcibly pulled out generals who wanted to continue the civil war, such as Strelkov, and negotiated a truce, and Donbass was supposed to remain the territory of Ukraine. However, as Merkel said, the truce was only temporary until Ukraine was sufficiently combat-ready. Further, before the war, Putin met with the heads of European countries in an attempt to negotiate. As I said earlier, in my vision, there are no good countries, everyone is thinking about their survival. Any war is a tragedy, but which country has not started wars?

Russian negotiation is and always has been "Let us keep what we stole and we won't be back for the rest later, unless we decide we do want the rest later." They taught us in Chechnya that they cannot be trusted to respect any peace treaty without force.

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