Suggestion: Get Rid of Gender Tags [Resolved]

[TheBlackThrone]

I feel the last items you listed are an unfair characterization of the input myself and others have offered.

Unfair in what way? I just want to see your perspective.

I scrolled back up to comment since Britwitch basically said it's not ever going to happen. I was interested in knowing this, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore.

...and in the event they are not, contact the game's GM and failing that, Staff.


No one can comment on your own experiences but in the same vein, you cannot assume that everyone has had the same experiences that you have.

Gender bias is, unfortunately a very real issue in the RL and may well exist here on the forums but! It is a problem that will not be solved by the removal of gender tags that provide many of our members with a sense of comfort and representation sadly unavailable to them in the real world.

You are just as free as anyone to represent yourself here on the forums in whatever way you choose - your avatar, personal statement, signature and the like are all yours to customise as you feel best suits you and can be changed as often as you like. If you feel someone has been disrespectful there are channels available for you to make the necessary complaints. Staff cannot help those situations they are unaware of.

I have only ever said "in my experience." I shared specifically my experiences. No one who has shared similar issues has commented. Only those who have mostly positive experiences have commented and defended why the tags should remain. I would have been very interested to see if others have experienced what I have if this was allowed to go longer, but you have already stated that the Staff have no intention of ever giving the option of removing a label. I have to call it a label because that is what it is, so this does end the discussion.

Ok, I was trying to keep quiet but here I go.

No one is saying you can't do anything, but just advising things that might be pointing to as to why someone might assume you are male.

And for you to say having the female tag is going to be easier on you, then lets saying having any other tag on here is...you really have no idea what you are talking about.

People are going to assume what you are, no matter what you do unfortunately. And no matter what sex or label you are, in the end you are always going to be getting some kind of issue at some point and time. It's the internet, flat out no matter how many great people on a website there is there is always going to be assholes who are going to cause trouble in some way, shape, or form for others. It is just the nature of the internet, and if you have been around it long enough you understand these things. That is why on sites like these, the people who run it take issues very seriously when you go to them about it. BUT IF YOU DON'T GO TO THEM ABOUT IT, THEY DON'T KNOW THEY NEED TO HELP.

As for your not having labels on other sites and it is all good and no problems, that is very faulty and misinformed. Just because you don't have issues with sites where they don't know specifically what sex you are, doesn't mean others don't have issues. I am on other sites where my sex isn't listed, but it is very much assumed I am a woman. And I will tell you, I have been just about harassed as much on E as I have been on the other sites by what I assume to be men because they assume I am a woman and that they can just come to me asking for all kinds of sorted crap because I am on a erotic writing site. I also know men, who have went onto these sites without labels and wrote female characters and they also got harassed like I have and many other women have on a lot of erotic sites. They were amazed by the stuff some men put women through, and they learned a lot from it.

You have made your point, and you have been shown the best way to handle things and had a lot of great suggestions. Arguing the point any further, really is only making you look bad. Sometimes if you don't like what is happening and it keeps happening, you have to figure out what you need to change so it doesn't keep happening either.

I find this to be very combative, and has several accusatory statements and rude statements: "You don't know what you're talking about," and therefore, I won't comment much on it. If you felt this was an argument and felt the need to make this comment, then I don't know what to tell you but the "if you don't have anything nice to say, then say nothing at all?" If you're going to be rude, then it just ruins the integrity behind any point you try to make.

[Formless]

TheBlackThorne Wishes to abolish tags.

Tags seems to somehow influence people's assumptions of what gender people identify as.

By that definition, Daddy is a noun that invokes assumption.

Its ridiculous to call yourself a Daddy (Regardless of what backstory the title has) and not expect people to assume your gender about it. People will assume everything about you based on how you present yourself, all of what is apparent to them.

A better solution for you to avoid all this negativity is to make use of the custom title, location, personal message or signature to inform people that you do not want them to assume anything about you.

Trying to abolish a feature from everyone even when many has agreed that they enjoy it is quite selfish, and the reasons you provided are fragile at best.

Even without tags, people will assume someone's gender based on their avatars. Why? Because that's how most people behave. We should abolish avatars then? Then people will start assuming genders based on usernames. Assumption will happen if people do not have anything to pick up on.

Make it apparent to people how you want to be treated. Don't expect it from people, especially when their actions are not driven by any malicious behavior.

[TheBlackThrone]

TheBlackThorne Wishes to abolish tags.

Tags seems to somehow influence people's assumptions of what gender people identify as.

By that definition, Daddy is a noun that invokes assumption.

Its ridiculous to call yourself a Daddy (Regardless of what backstory the title has) and not expect people to assume your gender about it. People will assume everything about you based on how you present yourself, all of what is apparent to them.

A better solution for you to avoid all this negativity is to make use of the custom title, location, personal message or signature to inform people that you do not want them to assume anything about you.

Trying to abolish a feature from everyone even when many has agreed that they enjoy it is quite selfish, and the reasons you provided are fragile at best.

Even without tags, people will assume someone's gender based on their avatars. Why? Because that's how most people behave. We should abolish avatars then? Then people will start assuming genders based on usernames. Assumption will happen if people do not have anything to pick up on.

Make it apparent to people how you want to be treated. Don't expect it from people, especially when their actions are not driven by any malicious behavior.

I posted that Custom Title two weeks ago. For years on here, I had no custom title. It had no influence over the assumption of my gender. And it's okay if you don't like "Daddy Shark." It was for my friend.

Also, the conversation had changed to abolish the tag for those who wanted it gone, but Britwitch already said it would never be a thing, so *shrugs*

I know it was a lot and you probably didn't feel like reading it all.

Oh and to add, I don't want to make custom titles and change my layout for the purpose of others. I want to believe the forum profile design is meant for "my" enjoyment and I should be able to design it how I want without judgment. I did mention that being one of those "rights" in one of my posts. If I have to make titles and profile designs telling people to treat me with respect, it kind of defeats that purpose. Accidentally referring to me as whatever gender isn't the problem. It is when I am referred as a gender with the intent to demean and offend. Or when the assumed gender draws a certain kind of psychology from the other person, a social psychology they only use against that specific gender.

I think people will learn to talk to Legates one day I guess.

Edit: To further add, I don't have any recent stories of this for this month because I have since separated myself from people who do this. I was hoping to find a solution to this persistent problem, but I guess the solution is for me to just start checking people when they attempt to do it. I just only hope not to get in trouble doing it.

[Flower]

If I write 'whore' or 'slut' in my custom tags, does it give people the right to treat me in a sexual manner?

[TheBlackThrone]

If I write 'whore' or 'slut' in my custom tags, does it give people the right to treat me in a sexual manner?

I honestly rarely look at people's custom tags so if you had it in there, I wouldn't think anything of it. It is your custom title and you can do what you want with it.

I mentioned it before. There are Legates who have male avatars or female avatars. They have whatever as their avatar, and I don't go assuming their gender because of it. Because they are Legates, they are gender neutral.

[Flower]

The point of my question is to point out custom tags shouldn't matter in this context. As long as they are not breaking E rules, it does not give people permission to treat you in any assumed fashion (unless it's pronouns since people put their preferred ones there).

[Formless]

If I write 'whore' or 'slut' in my custom tags, does it give people the right to treat me in a sexual manner?

I believe being treated as a slut, carries a chance of malicious intent behind it.

A mere mistake of identity based on ignorance to someone's preference is not the same as approaching someone with the blatant intention of treating someone with such malicious behavior.

[Formless]

It is when I am referred as a gender with the intent to demean and offend.

If anything this forum has taught me, is that it stands against this kind of behavior when it happens.

Or when the assumed gender draws a certain kind of psychology from the other person, a social psychology they only use against that specific gender.

This sort of psychology can only be fixed through spreading awareness, through putting time into making people understand the problem so they can be part of the solution.

Being forceful will not fix anything. 'Taking away' something for the benefit of a group at the expense of other groups, does not create equal grounds. It creates animosity.

To make things right, be the first step into realizing that ideal. Enforcing rules isn't the way to go about it.

[clonkertink]

I must say, the removal of gender tags foes not seem as though it will solve your problem. In environments without a gender tagging system, Removing the tagging system would likely lead to more assumptions of gender, not fewer. Or at the very least, more interrogation of gender. I have had people assume I’m female because I was playing a female character, I’ve had people assume I’m male because “everyone is male on the internet.” I’ve had people rigorously question my personal gender, lest their blurry fantasy of interacting with a woman be undermined by a harsh reality.

If it bothers you that people assume a particular gender, then you are free to politely reinforce that boundary. You may make that boundary more explicit by listing your pronouns in your custom title (a common practice among both lieges and legates alike), or by stating in your O/Os that referring to you in a gendered manner is a boundary, etc.

You may politely correct people if they refer to you by a gendered pronoun, and report people if they are uncivil towards you for any reason, but certainly relating to matters of gender.

It is reasonable to ask people to treat you in a gender-neutral way, to block people who do not respect that boundary, and to report people whom you feel have violated elliquiy’s rules, even if those people have taken their game to discord.

Legate is a very diverse tag, and people take that tag for a multitude of reasons, and their tolerance for being addressed in gendered ways is equally diverse. This, defining your own boundaries, and making those clear to other members of the community is particularly important.

Elliquiy values respect for boundaries, but those boundaries do need to be clearly established, first.

[Suiko]

I'll throw my hat into this discussion. I remember it from a long time ago, and I think my stance has changed since them.

I started off with the Lord tag, before moving to Liege after about three years. I honestly can't say that the overall way I've been treated has changed - apart from 0ne in ident where someone didn't want to roleplay with me as a Lord playing a female character. That absolutely hurt my feelings and made me feel like shit, but since then I've done a lot of growing up and I've learned that people are entitled to their preferences.

If anyone would be uncomfortable writing sexual content with a specific gender, then they should be able to voice that. I couldn't care less, but for some people it's important to know those things - taking the tags away would remove that security for some people.

And as mentioned before, the specific tag boards are so helpful in meeting people similar to yourself. It would be a shame to lose them.

In terms of the assumptions/people being assholes and white knighting, that is absolutely rubbish and shouldn't happen... but in my experience people will always be assholes no matter what your gender says. If someone is being a dick to you and calling you a gendered insult to hurt you, it's because they're a dick. They would still be rude without the tag, and need reporting.

There will always be people who are rude, the internet is the internet. Its a case of reporting those people, blocking them, and focusing on the majority who are kind and welcoming.

[Sethren]

Uhm, wow. This thread got very heated, very fast.

May I make the notion that mayhap this should be moved to a debate thread/section? Because this strongly feels more debating than anything else now.

The staff and even non-staff individuals have made suggestions on how to relieve the issue, yet it seems now that this entire conversation has only turned into a non-stop argument that circles back to the same things. It really feels like it's going to start snowballing into a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings.



Bottom line is. E has a system to allow individuals to not disclose their gender and if anyone disrespects that, it needs to be reported. The staff of E is very good at handling all manner of problems. So long as they know about it.

Is the system perfect? No, why? Because perfection is an illusion. But there is a reason that E is still standing after a decade, it works as a community.

Everything you are concerned about is valid - to a point and I say that because this thread is getting a bit wonky but Khoraz's post above me is a good summarization of everything that is being felt.

I strongly encourage you use your Legate/Centurion only board to bring up this discussion so that if there are others who share your views, can join in on it and talk to you about it and give suggestions on how to deal with any issues you may run into. Having that community available to you could hopefully be comforting.



I would like to put it out there to everyone who is reading/responding to this. Take a step back and remember to breathe my loves. I say this because I got a bit anxious myself but I want to help, so. <3

[TheBlackThrone]

Uhm, wow. This thread got very heated, very fast.

May I make the notion that mayhap this should be moved to a debate thread/section? Because this strongly feels more debating than anything else now.

The staff and even non-staff individuals have made suggestions on how to relieve the issue, yet it seems now that this entire conversation has only turned into a non-stop argument that circles back to the same things. It really feels like it's going to start snowballing into a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings.



Bottom line is. E has a system to allow individuals to not disclose their gender and if anyone disrespects that, it needs to be reported. The staff of E is very good at handling all manner of problems. So long as they know about it.

Is the system perfect? No, why? Because perfection is an illusion. But there is a reason that E is still standing after a decade, it works as a community.

Everything you are concerned about is valid - to a point and I say that because this thread is getting a bit wonky but Khoraz's post above me is a good summarization of everything that is being felt.

I strongly encourage you use your Legate/Centurion only board to bring up this discussion so that if there are others who share your views, can join in on it and talk to you about it and give suggestions on how to deal with any issues you may run into. Having that community available to you could hopefully be comforting.



I would like to put it out there to everyone who is reading/responding to this. Take a step back and remember to breathe my loves. I say this because I got a bit anxious myself but I want to help, so. <3

The thread isn't heated. There was only one rude comment. Everyone has just been sharing their opinion and nothing more. I know it's a lot to read and most people just skim it, but it's not what you're saying it is. I expect people are going to continue adding their opinions, but I have nothing to add to the conversation since it concluded long ago. Every now and then I might comment on what someone feels like sharing or just not say anything.

[Formless]

The thread isn't heated. There was only one rude comment. Everyone has just been sharing their opinion and nothing more. I know it's a lot to read and most people just skim it, but it's not what you're saying it is. I expect people are going to continue adding their opinions, but I have nothing to add to the conversation since it concluded long ago. Every now and then I might comment on what someone feels like sharing or just not say anything.

Passive aggressive behavior will not put you in a good light.

This is a friendly advice.

[TheBlackThrone]

Passive aggressive behavior will not put you in a good light.

This is a friendly advice.

I wasn't being passive aggressive. I was literally stating that there was no drama in this thread. o_o

I was also literally saying that I don't have much to say and I comment on what people share. There is nothing aggressive about that.

[Sethren]

I rest my case and shall see myself out then, best of luck to you and I hope you will have better experiences in the future~

[Formless]

I wasn't being passive aggressive. I was literally stating that there was no drama in this thread. o_o

I was also literally saying that I don't have much to say and I comment on what people share. There is nothing aggressive about that.

And I was offering a friendly advice.

[TheBlackThrone]

I rest my case and shall see myself out then, best of luck to you and I hope you will have better experiences in the future~

I hope so too.

I really don't mind the comments. Especially, how everyone was sharing what the gender tags did for them. When I first wrote this, I wasn't aware of that light, but since starting the thread, I see how the gender tag was a benefit for the Liege community.

[TheBlackThrone]

And I was offering a friendly advice.

I think I missed the advice. I read your comment as you accusing me of being passive aggressive.

[Formless]

I think I missed the advice. I read your comment as you accusing me of being passive aggressive.

You were passive aggressive.

Rather than being direct here:

There was only one rude comment.

And here:

I know it's a lot to read and most people just skim it.

You were passive aggressive about it. That’s two people you singled out and you did not deign to address them directly.

I will leave this interaction to the staff if they deem it necessary to be judged. But under no circumstances am I going to shy away from pointing a slight at my expense when it happens.

You “assumed” I skimmed the thread. Just because I reiterated a point in my own words. Ironic if anything considering the basis on which this thread was established.

Good day.

[TheBlackThrone]

You were passive aggressive.

Rather than being direct here:

And here:

You were passive aggressive about it. That’s two people you singled out and you did not deign to address them directly.

I will leave this interaction to the staff if they deem it necessary to be judged. But under no circumstances am I going to shy away from pointing a slight at my expense when it happens.

You “assumed” I skimmed the thread. Just because I reiterated a point in my own words. Ironic if anything considering the basis on which this thread was established.

Good day.

I had no idea you were offended, but I don't plan on adding more fire to what offended you. I'm sorry. I definitely offended you without realizing it. You saw my comments as passive aggressive, while I thought I was just making statements. I think there was a clear misunderstanding, but how everything I said affected you is apparent in your reaction. Regardless what I think, I offended you, and I am sorry for that.

[Thesunmaid]

Well As you can see I am showing as a lady and...I have just as many games where I play a male character and I do where I play a female one. I have on occasion had people surprised when I ask if they would mind playing a male character or they see a story idea where I want to play a male but honestly and this is not to shit on anyone's gender identity but...I don't see much difference between men and women as people. I am pansexual so what someone has in thier pants is of very little consequence to me so long as they are an awesome person.

But I do get that some people identify as another gender than what they were born as or maybe none at all and my attitude towards it is basically "ok cool." when they tell me. You are a male...cool....you are a female also cool...you are not really any also cool what ever makes you feel happy and good about yourself. I could care less about the real time "gender" of my partners and what ever thier choice they want to play.

I was in an rp chat back in the mid 2000's which is kind of what led me to start playing here...it was not the norm to play another gender and this was a sandbox kind of room for supernatural TV shows and movies...so I asked the room owner if she would have a problem with me playing a male character. She was like uhh sure if you want to. And so I played the blonde vampire Spike from Buffy and I had quite a bit of fun because he was an interesting character to me. But some in the room felt I was "Lying to them." So I would put in my tags when I played him (I am a female player) but I really did not feel like it was strange to play a male character (and I still don't) because they are interesting characters and its really not focused on I am playing a character with a penis...or a character with a vagina..its just a character..

So I honestly don't see the problem with the tags but also if someone does not want to have them or identify as something...neat...have at it...but..I really don't feel like me having a tag that says lady hampers my ability to RP here..all of my partners are pretty fucking amazing to play with and they seem to enjoy my posts when I am able to muster the brain power to do them.

So I am so happy for the people who E had helped you come to grips with your identity that is awesome but I can also see why it might be confusing to some or..why someone might not want to disclose or choose a certain tag. I just have to say...I mod for an adult chat on another site...and compared to there with its misogyny and bigotry (and worse) at times which...well we try and stop but sometimes things don't get reported and we can only really do so much since we can't be everywhere at once. And we are slowly showing the chatters there we are not untouchable above them types...we want to help them...E is leaps and bounds above there. This place is amazingly accepting of pretty much anyone (with the exceptions of the people who were banned because well the sites better off with out those types.) But...yeah it could be a lot worse than people liking and using tags and well...you might not like it but...a lot of people like the tags...and would be very upset if they were removed. Also it would be kind of a major change for a lot and people as a general rule are not hugely fond of big changes. (like you tube with the dislike button..people are piiiiissssed) As far as I can see its a Majority rules sort of way of doing things. Needs of the many vs needs of the few I guess?

So yeah I am a cisgendered woman so maybe my opinion is not as weighty as some...but there is it. I hope you can find something that works for you.

[Sara Nilsson]

I have... conflicting thoughts on the gender tags.

As a transwoman I see myself as a woman first, trans is.. like.. not even tertiary.. most of the time. Also, I don't think we had the trans label when I joined but I could have missed it. I thought about if I want to stay in the lady group, but.. as I said, I feel more woman than trans being now quite a few years post op. And you know, my name, kinda gives it away if I where to pick the neutral option.

So honestly I don't think any tag really is good for me. But, the least.. bad? Is the lady tag. So.. I at least a few times a year go.. should I ask for a change? But I kinda don't want to, and kinda do. But I think the current system, with its flaws is the better system atm. I think dropping it all together would cause more problems than it solves. If forno other reason I often see people wanting to write with lord/lady// etc only. And while I don't subscribe to that myself, that is their boundry and it is totally valid for them.

I do think all tags have their own problems. I found a few times that being a lady will give the same problems being a woman in RL has, people hitting on you for what is between your legs over for being you, talked over, and yes it can sometimes mean guys will leap to your defense too. Which is also fucking annoying. I do not need protecting without me asking for it.

But.. I am rambling because I am fucking exhausted and I shouldn't be writing this but.. I never claimed to be smart. Anywho, my 2 SEK worth.

[Nachtmahr]

I started off with the Lord tag, before moving to Liege after about three years. I honestly can't say that the overall way I've been treated has changed - apart from 0ne in ident where someone didn't want to roleplay with me as a Lord playing a female character. That absolutely hurt my feelings and made me feel like shit, but since then I've done a lot of growing up and I've learned that people are entitled to their preferences.

If anyone would be uncomfortable writing sexual content with a specific gender, then they should be able to voice that. I couldn't care less, but for some people it's important to know those things - taking the tags away would remove that security for some people.

And as mentioned before, the specific tag boards are so helpful in meeting people similar to yourself. It would be a shame to lose them.

Seeing Khoraz write this, as someone who also swapped their original tag for the Liege tag, made me want to also contribute to this discussion, although I am always a little wary of doing so. I'm not on this site for debates, after all.

But... Yeah, it happens. I still *occasionally* contact someone who isn't interested in writing with me because of my tag, and ultimately, that's their right. I've had very few uncomfortable experiences, and thankfully most people have been very polite and respectful in rejecting my proposals. And of course I try to be as respectful and polite as possible when I inevitably have to reject someone. Now, I don't know that I have done so specifically because of their tag, but there may have been other reasons why I wasn't comfortable playing with them. I have my preferences, and they have theirs. Inclusiveness, to me, is about being able to peacefully coexist and accept each other as individuals with different views and feelings. We can't all be expected to enjoy the same things.

Anyway, that's kind of off topic I guess.

As for the benefits of the tags, the tag-exclusive forums, I think, brings a lot of joy to a lot of people. At least, that is my assumption. Maybe the Liege community has just been particularly welcoming; I wouldn't really know, after all. But I think it's a good thing to have these self-contained communities where people can go and discuss things or banter with others who might be in a similar situation. It's always been a very interesting feature of this site, and I think it helps promote a sense of community, which elevates Elliquiy above just being a place where people exchange smutty bits of literature. Most text-based RP sites I frequented before E never quite fostered that same sense of community.

If there is one point of criticism that I would find relevant, it would be that, as a historian, I don't know if Legate/Centurion are optimal choices for a tag that's meant to convey a non-gendered group. When I think of legates and centurions, I think of ancient Roman armies, and when I think of ancient Roman armies... Well, I'd say that they might have a bit of a masculine bias, maybe? So, rather than abolishing the tag-system altogether, maybe it'd be worthwhile to look into whether or not some more fitting tags could be agreed upon, if the Legate-community feels that this might be an issue.

I would thus like to propose that a debate be had among the Legates and staff as to whether or not they would like a different set of tags, and that they get the opportunity to propose some alternatives. If I had to be the one to get the ball rolling; in staying with the theme of the site, maybe something more along the lines of Noble/Magistrate?

[TheBlackThrone]

You are good people are just sharing. As a Centurion, also this is just how I feel, I do not speak for all other Legates. Changing the tag name I would be indifferent to. I would rather not be labeled period.

I am interested in making an awareness discussion, but I do not want to keep it restricted to Legate Only because that isn't spreading awareness. I will have to get with a Mod to see where something like that would fit. Because I find these discussions very educational as long as people keep them civil. Also, specifically, a Legate Awareness thread.

[RedPhoenix]

Red has thoughts.

Telling someone not to put the word Daddy in their profile if they don't want to be put in gender boxes is ridiculous. I understand it was offered with good intentions as practical advice, but it's ridiculous.

First, it's not even a correct assumption. If I put a phrase like "do what daddy says" in my avatar practically nobody would assume I have a male identity for it. I predict the vast majority (who even gave it a moment's thought) would think I'm in a toppy type mood and I might get some thirsty comments about it but that's it. I've seen many profiles with gendered titles in them and never assumed that that title was an announcement of a real life gender identity.

Second, if someone assumes a gender identity based on anything but a gender tag or a public request that's on the person making the assumption. It really feels to me like instantly swerving advice the opposite direction is like telling the woman getting catcalled to stop being stylish. Yes it would fix the problem. But the cure is worse than the disease. Being told to alter and change your completely appropriate behavior because other people are taking it wrong is not a healthy solution.

And yes, I get that most people offering that advice were doing it for good reasons and are trying to be helpful. But please take a moment to think about the situation and what you're saying. It's not that simple.

As Flower said, if you put a word like slut in your title would anyone be justified in assuming you're a slut in real life for it, or judging you as a person for it? I've had all sorts of words in my profile that would be horrifically problematic if anyone took them as license to treat me a certain way or just put in a box for it. That it hasn't happened is a GOOD THING about Elliquiy and people should be able to enjoy that regardless of what the word is. To continue the analogy from above, I feel like I can wear whatever I want here and people who care about it only do so to celebrate it. I am distressed that another member is having the opposite experience and even moreso by the lack of sympathy I'm seeing. How is "Daddy" any different than anything else in that regard? I don't get the ganging up here.

Next point....

"Just report the discord" is not the easy solution people seem to think it is either. I had a longer ramble here but I don't want to derail things too much. I can see why it might feel like trying to prove something happened in a discord you aren't a part of anymore would be far more hassle than just leaving the game and moving on. My bad experiences with discords for E games have always been more of a "hostile work environment" type situation anyway. I'd be hard pressed to point to one specific thing was so rules breaking it would be something I would report the moment I saw it, more like, just a general vibe that makes me uncomfortable and I'd have to like, start taking notes or something if I wanted to make an even vaguely coherent report. Ugh, no thanks. I understand the hesitancy to report is all I'm saying here.

Regarding "White Knights"....

It seems this is a matter of personal perspective. I have seen far more men rush to the defense of other men, especially in discussions relating to sexism, on E than I have ever seen men rush to the defense of women. I have seen more women be accused of being hysterical or too emotional rather than have their opinions taken seriously than I have ever seen happen to a man here. I have never had requests for phone sex, irl pics, specifically pictures of my feet and shoes, flirty questions about my first time or asked what I'm wearing when I ever had a non-Lady tag. I don't miss the way people thought it was okay to talk to me with that tag. I am very sure E is much, much, better about this than most other places. It doesn't mean it never happens.

The idea that Ladies have all these rights and privileges that others don't....yeah that's just not any reality I've experienced here. There is a point to be made about how the assumption that women are helpless and will be victimized by men if men don't save them is a rancid and detestable part of the very worst things on this planet right now, but thinking that this means women somehow have it easier because of it is a misguided take, imo.

Finally....

I don't agree with abolishing gender tags because I don't think it would fix the problems here. I think people making assumptions about who you are RL and mistreating you because of it would happen even if we all had identical profiles. People would find something else to base it off of. And it would still be a problem with the people acting that way, not the system so to speak, and definitely not the people being mistreated for it.

Also, I personally think it would be a loss if the gender tags went away entirely just because the existence of the Liege tag gave me the confidence to think I might be welcome on E many, many, years ago. I do think new users should maybe get a better understanding of the role that the tags play in E's culture, and especially letting them know that once you have a non-Legate tag the cat is kind of out of the bag, which I don't know if new users really get that. I admit I am somewhat jealous that new users have that option from the start now, so it might be something I'm sensitive to.

Final point on that, I know enough people that really like their "LO" board that I think you'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to get rid of them. I personally find the Legate tag to be a good compromise. That is not to minimize or excuse people being treated wrong with it, but I see that as a problem with those individuals doing it, not the Legate tag.

If it bothers you that people assume a particular gender, then you are free to politely reinforce that boundary. You may make that boundary more explicit by listing your pronouns in your custom title (a common practice among both lieges and legates alike), or by stating in your O/Os that referring to you in a gendered manner is a boundary, etc.

You may politely correct people if they refer to you by a gendered pronoun, and report people if they are uncivil towards you for any reason, but certainly relating to matters of gender.

I agree with this too. Misgendering (or even gendering depending on the case) a Legate is something that can happen through mistake or confusion, especially since a lot of places don't have a Legate equivalent and new people especially may not know how to act. A polite and gentle reminder is something we should all feel empowered to do if someone misgenders us, or really does anything that feels like it violates our own boundaries.

And if they refuse to do that, then they are violating E's rules and that's when Staff should be notified, and if you were nice about it at first nobody should feel bad about blowing the whistle there.

And I do feel empowered to say such things, and do these things, and that's a good thing.

If someone else is saying they don't though, that's a problem and I would like to hear from them why don't feel they can do this.

If there is one point of criticism that I would find relevant, it would be that, as a historian, I don't know if Legate/Centurion are optimal choices for a tag that's meant to convey a non-gendered group. When I think of legates and centurions, I think of ancient Roman armies, and when I think of ancient Roman armies... Well, I'd say that they might have a bit of a masculine bias, maybe? So, rather than abolishing the tag-system altogether, maybe it'd be worthwhile to look into whether or not some more fitting tags could be agreed upon, if the Legate-community feels that this might be an issue.

I would thus like to propose that a debate be had among the Legates and staff as to whether or not they would like a different set of tags, and that they get the opportunity to propose some alternatives. If I had to be the one to get the ball rolling; in staying with the theme of the site, maybe something more along the lines of Noble/Magistrate?

That thought literally never occurred to me. I've never made any such assumption or felt like the tag veers male. But then again I like to think I don't do that at all, and now that you've mentioned it...

I know at one point to keep on the "L" theme the word "Luminary" had been tossed out. And I think in that old thread that was linked the "working title" was "Scribe" which is very neutral, although if we want to deep dive into implications actually implies submission to the noble theme of the other tags. I'm not sure a word exists that has no negative connotations, but that doesn't mean a better option than Legate is impossible.

My thought at this point is that its just like anything else, it shouldn't be used as a basis for making assumptions and if it is that's on the person doing it, but I'd be very curious what others think about this, both those who have the tag and don't.

edit update:

Realizing that my background in putting things in context for non-typical every day words is more fantasy/fiction where membership in a Legion or having a title Centurion has no real gender connotations at all. Maybe that's a part of it?

And now I'm thinking about the "Muse" tag and how the Greek muses were all female. Huh. Does that ever deter anyone from getting the tag? I know there's an opt out for it. Just curious now.