Suggestion: Get Rid of Gender Tags [Resolved]

[TheBlackThrone]

I want to propose getting rid of gender tags in order to reduce gender bias and predatory behavior.

As a Champion, I constantly face gender bias on this site. Constantly. It does not matter if I am a Liege people always try to categorize you into a gender based on some social assumption of how a man or woman behaves. I have been categorized as a man in order to warrant the use of "dude" or "bro" in a demeaning context.

I have seen "White Knight Syndrome" where a Lady is disrespectful and wrong, but by nature of the tag, she will have writers and administrators rally to her rescue. If the genders of the writers were unknown, then the only way anyone would ever know the gender of the writer is if that writer discloses it.

White Knight Syndrome will be reduced. Predatory incidents should be reduced because the gender isn't on immediate display for predators to immediately target. I write on another site that doesn't have the gender tag advertised for the writers, and it forces the writers to treat everyone equally. An actual Lady or Lord would be treated the same because the gender is unknown, forcing an equal amount of gender assumption.

I have experienced both sides, and what I notice is when an assumed Lord, it is easier for others to disrespect you and treat you like a second rate citizen. When treated as a Lady, I noticed an increase in respect and "caution" about disrespect.

If the gender tags are removed, they can easily be replaced with badges that show who has contributed to the site, or maybe even denoting a specific group. Example, the Rainbow Writers who write all genders and sexualities could get a badge. That is just an example.

Currently, I do not see Gender Bias ever going away with how things are. The Liege and Champion tags were a good try, but it hasn't changed anything. Positively, we also see Solo Requests where people clearly state that the gender of the writer does not matter and they are requesting the character they write be "x" gender to meet their RP needs. If we just went ahead and got rid of the tags, then it eliminates the "I must have an actual writer of this gender write this gender because only writers of the gender that matches the character can play them right."

[Oreo]

There was a discussion here.

[Esoterica]

Well it doesn't appear it happened back then, but hasn't the issue come up a few times with people suggesting this?

[Hrairoo]

@BlackThrone: Liege and Champion aren't gender neutral tags. And sorry if I missed something but your tag is not Champion. It is Centurion, which is the actual "undisclosed" tag. So, if it was recently changed since you posted this thread, then forget I said anything. But if you're experiencing gender discrimination under Centurion, then you're invalidating your own point regarding "undisclosed" gender getting rid of discrimination.

I want to offer my own two cents as a Liege who was conflicted about being out as trans before coming to E. I wasn't even really out irl until I signed up on E and felt courage to be a part of the Liege community. Like, the fact that there were people I respected and looked up to who were openly trans and were also able to own their preferred gender, whatever that was, made me feel like online, I could be a transman and not be afraid that I wouldn't be thought of the way I desired to be thought of. It changed my life and I came out to extended family irl and felt confident exercising my desires to identify as a man.

I wonder though how do you know what someone's motives are when they are defending or not defending someone else? As someone who is really sensitive about gender and how I am perceived, I acknowledge that the way people treat me isn't always about what I think it's about. Sometimes people have valid reasons for standing up for someone else. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean others don't. And it doesn't automatically mean, "They're a woman so they're being defended because of that." I don't know how you would know that was the case or the primary reason.

[Blythe]

@TheBlackThrone: ....well, your personal text has the word 'Daddy' in it--that's the sort of text that is.....well, it's probably going to lead people into making an erroneous assumption about one's gender, quite honestly. 'Daddy' is not remotely a gender neutral term, and it's even more gender-charged than our gender tags, in my opinion.

As for the tags themselves: I can't speak for other people, but I don't particularly want the tags to go away. I have only ever been in Liege-specific tags in my time here, and while there was occasionally a mess up about someone assuming my gender wrong, people took correction well and moved on very fast. The tags have provided something valuable over the years, thanks to the adjacent gender-only discussion boards that go with them. They give many people--including me--a safe place to talk about gender-related topics I wouldn't ever have been comfortable discussing with individuals who aren't trans. Having the Liege tag openly and having its use normalized here gave me a chance to feel normal and a chance to be open without shame or fear of harassment.

[Esoterica]

Anyway, when I came to Elliquiy I was still coming to terms with my own gender identity. This gave me a safe space to do that, and empowered me to accept who and what I am for the first time. So I wouldn't want to remove gender tags necessarily, but I dont know about making them mandatory either in my opinion.

I have noticed that since changing to Liege from Lady, I have an issue with people treating me differently. I don't have nearly the same amount of roleplay requests as I used to. Friends who did not know before who know now were very respectful of it, and I only had one person I cut ties with because of his picking an argument with me about futas, but basically everyone else was great.

If there were not Gender Tags I would not have had the greatly empowering experience that I did.

You cannot really presume to know someone is defending someone just because of a Gender Tag. Unless you are claiming psychic powers, or unless someone came right out and said. This is a Lady she can do no wrong, then you just do not know that.

Sorry if that sounded harsh it was not really meant to be as such, but I did not know how to not say that bluntly.

[TheBlackThrone]

Well it doesn't appear it happened back then, but hasn't the issue come up a few times with people suggesting this?

I read some of that old discussion and seeing what Hrairoo said, who seems comfortable with having the gender tag.

@Hrairoo: Mind you, I read what you said, but I am not trying to steer off the topic into other debates. I am happy that you haven't run into these issues and actually like the tag, but that is not the same case for me.

Especially with some RPs using their own Discord servers and then see it as a safe place to make racist, sexist, and other -ist remarks because the staff cannot touch them. I have had to leave two servers because of such behavior and I have overall just chosen to avoid all Discords originating on E.

Now, I clearly did not know the purpose of the Legate tag then. I thought Legate was supposed to be the gender neutral tag. That was the whole reason I chose to be a Legate. If it is not gender neutral, then perhaps giving writers the option to request no tag at all. No label because I honestly do not like to be labeled. I write on here, and I feel forced to have to conform to something.

Other sites I write on, I have the right to hide my gender if I want so people can't discriminate.

[Hrairoo]

I'm confused. I apologize. I thought you said Champion and Liege in your OP, which are the transgender/gender fluid tag. Legate and Centurion, which you have, are the "undisclosed gender" tags.

I based what I said upon you still feeling discrimination while having an "undisclosed" tag. Which makes it seem like you might not be understanding what you're asking for(because undisclosed gender tag hasn't stopped you from being discriminated against? How would removing gender tags for everyone do that then?).

[Lexandria]

The Gender tags aren't required: the Legate/Centurion tag is the solution to folks not wanting to disclose their Gender as it has no Gender connotations. Those who have a Gender tag have specifically chosen to disclose, and they can change their minds at any time.

Especially with some RPs using their own Discord servers and then see it as a safe place to make racist, sexist, and other -ist remarks because the staff cannot touch them. I have had to leave two servers because of such behavior and I have overall just chosen to avoid all Discords originating on E.

If a game has originated on E and has a discord where things like this have happened,  please report it.

Now, I clearly did not know the purpose of the Legate tag then. I thought Legate was supposed to be the gender neutral tag. That was the whole reason I chose to be a Legate. If it is not gender neutral, then perhaps giving writers the option to request no tag at all. No label because I honestly do not like to be labeled. I write on here, and I feel forced to have to conform to something.

Other sites I write on, I have the right to hide my gender if I want so people can't discriminate.

Legate is the tag that has no Gender connotation.

[Amaris]

Gender tags aren't mandatory. Legate/Centurion tags are available to anyone that wants them. Legate is for people who do not want to disclose, don't have preference, or just prefer to be judged on their characters. You can disclose or not. That is already an availability and it is what is given should someone not divulge their gender. So, I feel like we already have that option available.

Have you reported the behavior in those Discord servers? The staff cannot do anything about situations they don't know about, but you'd be amazed at what they *can* do if they are aware of the problem.

You already are hiding your gender. Legate is the gender-neutral tag meaning there is nothing gender-specific to it. People can tell their gender or choose not to at all with this tag. With the 'Daddy' in your text, it would leave people making assumptions. But what Hrairoo is saying is that, given the fact that you already have a non-gender specific tag, you are stating that discrimination is happening to you. Which through logic would mean that... Even if everything was non-gender specific, there would still be that discrimination that you perceive.

[Vael the Destroyer]

@TheBlackThrone: I have to agree with Blythe on this one. I personally love the tags as I have had numerous ones since being on E for the past 9 years. I started off as a lord until I came to terms with my genderqueerness then became a Liege. I accepted that I was a transwoman in 2020 so in turn I had the Lady tag. Now I'm a Legate. E has helped me immensely in feeling like I can express myself and my gender identity in such a simple way and I would hate for that to be taken away from others who feel the same that I do.

If you don't want people to assume a gender for you, then I definitely think that removing the title 'Daddy' from your personal text is a good option. That is something that you can do to change your situation instead of expecting the whole site to change based off of your personal feelings on the matter.

[Esoterica]

Yeah I think the confusion came in the use of the wrong words earlier. Champion instead of Centurion. I assumed that you had the Liege Tag and changed to to Legate since the conversation started this morning and I guess I wasn't the only one. (@TheBlackThrone) So I think now I understand what you are saying.

And as one of the Staff said, there is a Gender Neutral Tag, you have it so I assume you must mean, you dont want Tags period for Anyone.

Edit: Also I thought what you meant by removing tags, was making everyone Tagless. So there would be no Lady, no Lord, No Liege we'd all basically be the same, and the Gender specific things on E would disappear, correct me if I am wrong. Because if that is not what you mean, than I am lost too.

[TheBlackThrone]

The "Daddy Shark" title is recent and post-incident. It is also for a friend, and it is not an excuse to judge a Legate and assume gender. We have Legates with females in their Avatars or males in the Avatars, whose screen names can be construed as one gender versus another, and I do not assume their gender based on their photo or any title they put beneath their name.

It is not an excuse to be disrespectful. I will be sure to put something feminine also in the subtitles somewhere since it is believed to be a simple solution to a complex problem. I will tell you now that it is not that simple.

I left those servers. Discords here, compared to other sites, are like a trap. You join. Be prepared for people to reveal their true colors that is hidden. It is hidden because they would not dare show those colors in a public OOC on this site, but discords for games on here have been the number one places where this discrimination happens. I won't have anything to report because I outright refuse to go in them on here.

I wish there was a warning for new folks coming here about Discords on this site.

But anywho, back to the topic. I have Centurion as a tag, and unless I make an entirely new account, . It doesn't seem to work.

[Vael the Destroyer]

I'm not understanding how getting rid of tags would help anyone in this situation based off of the fact that you have a gender neutral tag and you want to get rid of all tags. If that happens, how many other people are going to be treated the way that you are? If it's so disrespectful, why should it be changed for everyone, getting rid of a system that has been here since I joined 9 years ago - and before - that would then subject everyone to that treatment. Is that something you're okay with?

[Esoterica]

@TheBlackThrone....

People do assume genders. I use female avatars a lot. Like pretty much exclusively. And my User Name is Esoterica. I am FtM and I am not female. You'd be surprised at how many people assume I am MtF.

Assumptions are a part of life unfortunately. I also must say, not all Discord channels are shit. I have been in a few good ones, and a few bad ones. Just like there are nice people in this community, and there are the ones that are not so nice. You seem to be generalizing and assuming that every Discord member on every site that came from Elliquiy is run by jerks, and that is a little unfair. Just like it is unfair to assume that people are taking the sides of people in things on E based on Gender Tags.

[Hrairoo]

Yeah, this feels like it's less about gender tags or any associated discrimination and more like a bad personal experience regarding Discord rps. Which, it seems like BlackThrone, your personal issue will be solved if you're saying you simply won't join any more Discord rps. But not everyone has the same experiences with them. And there's no way to warn new members about potentially bad situations except to have mods be friendly and available (which, they are here; I think they work hard to make newbies feel welcomed) so that new people feel safe reporting it when something bad happens to them in those situations.

[Lexandria]

It is not an excuse to be disrespectful. I will be sure to put something feminine also in the subtitles somewhere since it is believed to be a simple solution to a complex problem. I will tell you now that it is not that simple.

I left those servers. Discords here, compared to other sites, are like a trap. You join. Be prepared for people to reveal their true colors that is hidden. It is hidden because they would not dare show those colors in a public OOC on this site, but discords for games on here have been the number one places where this discrimination happens. I won't have anything to report because I outright refuse to go in them on here.

I wish there was a warning for new folks coming here about Discords on this site.

We cannot do anything about something we don't know about. If someone is disrespectful, discriminatory, or uncivil,  please report it. If you have left the discord but remember which one it was and what happened,  please report so there is at least a record for if more reports are made.

I cannot stress enough that staff cannot do anything about a problem we do not know about.

But anywho, back to the topic. I have Centurion as a tag, and unless I make an entirely new account, . It doesn't seem to work.

Elliquiy has a one account per person, one person per account policy. Even if we did not have that policy, a new account would default to the Legate tag, which you already have. Is the specific problem you are trying to solve people making assumptions? No one can control the assumptions that another person makes, it's just a thing that happens. Tag or no tag, avatar or blank profile, gender neutral username, etc... someone will make an incorrect assumption. If you are treated poorly due to those assumptions,  please report it. If you feel a situation is not handled fairly by a member of staff, please follow the chain of command to address it.

[TheBlackThrone]

The discussion had changed from gender tag removal for everyone because of the previous discussion posted by Oreo. That discussion I believe led to the birth of the Legate tag, but I wanted to suggest for it to be optional not to have a gender tag period for those who did not want one.

If you like your tag, then you like your tag. This suggestion was to get rid of the tag for those who did not want to be labeled.

@Lexandria: I will report the server.

I am trying to find a solution for people trying to weaponized gender against someone. This is greater than someone accidentally referring to me with whatever pronoun. It is when they use a pronoun with the intent to being demeaning. Why is the male pronoun used as a weapon? Maybe it is because they cannot use the b or c word without antagonizing themselves, but it has been an offensive intent.

Another situation, two writers have their characters in constant sexual relations. The partner, female in those case (and these are frequent cases), is being disrespectful. The partner who she is having sex with is the GM of the game. The GM overlooks her behavior. Other writers in the game then ignore the disrespect because the GM is doing so, and their characters are probably (not probably in the specific situation I am recalling) having sex with her characters too. This is White Knight Syndrome.

So the White Knights show up when the one reporting the unruliness, again in my experience, when they perceive me to be male. I don't think I have ever seen it where the person is perceived to be female.

I will say, using this as an example, on those sites where nobody knows the gender because it is just turned off, these issues do not last long. There are less instigators. The situations are short-lived and quickly resolved.

[Blythe]

The "Daddy Shark" title is recent and post-incident. It is also for a friend, and it is not an excuse to judge a Legate and assume gender. We have Legates with females in their Avatars or males in the Avatars, whose screen names can be construed as one gender versus another, and I do not assume their gender based on their photo or any title they put beneath their name.

I do wish to apologize if I gave the impression making those assumptions was okay. It is not, of course, given in particular you are in the Legate tag, which is meant to be a gender non-disclosed tag in part due to people not liking gender assumptions. The only reason I mentioned the profile text was because it's an example of a non-malicious reason a person might make a gender assumption. Still, I do want to emphasize that I feel you should be treated civilly, respectfully, and in terms of gender, how you ask people to treat you.

[Amaris]

It feels like for someone advocating for something so non-gender specific, there is a lot of emphasis on the genders of those in your scenario and white knighting is something often used in a derogatory way toward men that stand up for or defend women.

I understand that you want no tag at all. But literally, the tag you have is just a graphic that says 'undisclosed' in a different way. The graphic could be taken away but it would still mean the same exact thing and it's already an option which is what you're asking for. The option to not disclose.

Not sure there is a lot more for me to contribute. I don't advocate for anyone to treat another person disrespectfully and I hope that gets better for you. Like the staff said, if it does happen I would really encourage you to report it so it's not added stress for you and that it doesn't happen to others.

[Britwitch]

This issue has been discussed before and as the result was the creation of the Legate/Centurion tag that you yourself already use TheBlackThrone, there isn't much more Staff can add at this point. There are no plans to remove gender tags at the current time.

As has been mentioned previously in this discussion, if you have specific incidents you would like to report to Staff to look into regarding your own experience of Elliquiy, please do feel free to contact any member of the team.

[TheBlackThrone]

I will share a perspective based on the facts of the experiences I have had on this site. Let me first list some things I believe I as well as everyone should have on here:

1) Have whatever avatar you want as long as it does not violate E policy as well as not be labeled because of the avatar you have that meets E's policy.

2) Have whatever screen name you want as long as it does not again violate E's policy.

3) Have whatever custom titles you want as long as it doesn't violate E's policy.

4) Write whatever character I want to write regardless of gender or sexuality and not be discriminated for it.

5) Be able to join a Discord for a group game on this site and hope that everyone is abiding by the rules and being respectful.

These are all ideal and unfortunately, from this conversation in order for me to not feel offended or disrespected I should:

1) Not have a gender custom title. My custom title should be gender anonymous.

2) Not have any avatar.

3) Do not have a screen name that implies a gender, which I feel I already have. It is literally a black chair.

4) Do not join E-grouo game Discords because they aren't safe.

Now in my experience, when I was perceived to be a female, usually when I write a female character, I have had no issues. In order to not have the male gender weaponized against me, in order to not deal with the syndrome I described above (whatever the actual name for that is called), it seems that because the gender neutral tag does not work that I would be better off conforming to the one tag I have faced the least amount of discrimination on. The Lady tag. With the Lady tag, I can have all of those above rights without issue.

[Hrairoo]

I feel the last items you listed are an unfair characterization of the input myself and others have offered.

[Britwitch]

5) Be able to join a Discord for a group game on this site and hope that everyone is abiding by the rules and being respectful.

...and in the event they are not, contact the game's GM and failing that, Staff.

These are all ideal and unfortunately, from this conversation in order for me to not feel offended or disrespected I should:

1) Not have a gender custom title. My custom title should be gender anonymous.

2) Not have any avatar.

3) Do not have a screen name that implies a gender, which I feel I already have. It is literally a black chair.

4) Do not join E-grouo game Discords because they aren't safe.

Now in my experience, when I was perceived to be a female, usually when I write a female character, I have had no issues. In order to not have the male gender weaponized against me, in order to not deal with the syndrome I described above (whatever the actual name for that is called), it seems that because the gender neutral tag does not work that I would be better off conforming to the one tag I have faced the least amount of discrimination on. The Lady tag. With the Lady tag, I can have all of those above rights without issue.

No one can comment on your own experiences but in the same vein, you cannot assume that everyone has had the same experiences that you have.

Gender bias is, unfortunately a very real issue in the RL and may well exist here on the forums but! It is a problem that will not be solved by the removal of gender tags that provide many of our members with a sense of comfort and representation sadly unavailable to them in the real world.

You are just as free as anyone to represent yourself here on the forums in whatever way you choose - your avatar, personal statement, signature and the like are all yours to customise as you feel best suits you and can be changed as often as you like. If you feel someone has been disrespectful there are channels available for you to make the necessary complaints. Staff cannot help those situations they are unaware of.

[Cassandraks]

Ok, I was trying to keep quiet but here I go.

No one is saying you can't do anything, but just advising things that might be pointing to as to why someone might assume you are male.

And for you to say having the female tag is going to be easier on you, then lets saying having any other tag on here is...you really have no idea what you are talking about.

People are going to assume what you are, no matter what you do unfortunately. And no matter what sex or label you are, in the end you are always going to be getting some kind of issue at some point and time. It's the internet, flat out no matter how many great people on a website there is there is always going to be assholes who are going to cause trouble in some way, shape, or form for others. It is just the nature of the internet, and if you have been around it long enough you understand these things. That is why on sites like these, the people who run it take issues very seriously when you go to them about it. BUT IF YOU DON'T GO TO THEM ABOUT IT, THEY DON'T KNOW THEY NEED TO HELP.

As for your not having labels on other sites and it is all good and no problems, that is very faulty and misinformed. Just because you don't have issues with sites where they don't know specifically what sex you are, doesn't mean others don't have issues. I am on other sites where my sex isn't listed, but it is very much assumed I am a woman. And I will tell you, I have been just about harassed as much on E as I have been on the other sites by what I assume to be men because they assume I am a woman and that they can just come to me asking for all kinds of sorted crap because I am on a erotic writing site. I also know men, who have went onto these sites without labels and wrote female characters and they also got harassed like I have and many other women have on a lot of erotic sites. They were amazed by the stuff some men put women through, and they learned a lot from it.

You have made your point, and you have been shown the best way to handle things and had a lot of great suggestions. Arguing the point any further, really is only making you look bad. Sometimes if you don't like what is happening and it keeps happening, you have to figure out what you need to change so it doesn't keep happening either.