Overlords (Pathfinder Mythic Sandbox)

[Knarfy]

Kimmy, I kind of love the slimegirl idea xD

[Lockepick]

We would use mass combat rules yeah, so gear matters little bit. Not +1 vs +2 but more as +1 flaming (keen, frost or whatever you use as dmg boosting enchant or useful +1 enchant for weapon example).

The Mass Combat Rules don't really use equipment. Buying enhanced gear for your army uses 'BP' to determine the rating of the gear they have. I suppose it's obvious to say that if I buy +1 weapons for everybody, they get +1 to their OV -- but that's not really how it works.

Can I get a little more detail on how it all works? Honestly: the fear of doing all the effort of micro-mangaging and building my minions for none of that to matter is pretty terrible.

[TheGlyphstone]

Zaer, you bastard. Stop making high power games I can't resist signing up for.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Can I get a little more detail on how it all works? Honestly: the fear of doing all the effort of micro-mangaging and building my minions for none of that to matter is pretty terrible.

I need work my end how it works exactly but let's say the gear does matter in minions (or cohorts) one way or another. Example if minions got only masterwork weapons, they will definately loose against group of gargoyles (or anything with magic bypassed DR).

Zaer, you bastard. Stop making high power games I can't resist signing up for.

Up to you decide will you resist temptation :)

[ChaoticSky]

Mhm. I'm starting to think we should tone this down abit. Like maybe get rid of mythic ranks entirely or something. I honestly dont think any of this really works if we are literally immortal and undefeatable. Death needs to having meaning even if we are bloody hard to put down. Overlord had enemies on Ain's scale for a reason, it lacks life if we are just indolently steamrolling everything in sight for shits and giggles.

Being powerful is fun, being massively overpowered can be fun too, but being indestructible undying world conquering titans against which no meaningful resistance can or ever will be held starts to drop into a uncanny valley of lame. We might as well split and conquer a nation each. Theres no real unifying force to keep us together aside form nostalgia, no threat or danger that we might unite against. At the very least you need to hard axe that 'you cant die ever no matter what' thing, and make it clear that the whole corpse-run thing does not apply anymore. Hell, it might be better to axe the Mythic stuff all together, CR23 is plenty for being overpowered libertine murderhobos with god complexes that piddly mortals stand no chance against.

Likewise, and i had a thought that might be interesting; Ain's personality starts shifting from average wageslave smuck to lichking when the he ends up trapped in the game... To provide a little guidance to the players, it might be neat to say that we start getting influenced by our monsters/templates/etc, which is how we-players- go from being normal MMOplayers to the League of Evil. Which also provides some neat existential fear for those who notice they are changing and might not like it.

*edit, I also think it would be better if it wasnt possible to have significant interactions with NPCs before either... I mean, having a server where you can get pinned down and raped by your enemies doesnt seem like something i can ever see flying.... but whateverworks in the Crapsack Future i guess (maybe make it more like SAO where it was possible but only between two consenting people?). Making NPCs valid targets for all this stuff though runs counter to major themes in VR stories... the idea of NPCs being people too (which log horizon did best, but Overlord does too). If they were mobile inanimate objects who spouted a few pre-programmed lines and actions thats one thing. But making them more than that before things got real merely hurts any wonder we might feel at this new world of ours.

'oh dont mind the crying wench, shes just programmed to cry when we burn down her house, its not because shes actually distressed.'

[Ron Don Volante]

Being powerful is fun, being massively overpowered can be fun too, but being indestructible undying world conquering titans against which no meaningful resistance can or ever will be held starts to drop into a uncanny valley of lame. We might as well split and conquer a nation each. Theres no real unifying force to keep us together aside form nostalgia, no threat or danger that we might unite against. At the very least you need to hard axe that 'you cant die ever no matter what' thing, and make it clear that the whole corpse-run thing does not apply anymore. Hell, it might be better to axe the Mythic stuff all together, CR23 is plenty for being overpowered libertine murderhobos with god complexes that piddly mortals stand no chance against.

^^I'm in total respectful agreement here. Also, it makes character creation easier...

[Snake]

Then I'd have to rebuild my char from the ground up. It's tough enoughto make a mythic char then youget used to it, then it's had to power them back down.

[ChaoticSky]

Then I'd have to rebuild my char from the ground up. It's tough enoughto make a mythic char then youget used to it, then it's had to power them back down.

How so? Mythic isnt even a contuation of your level (ie 'Epic') its a entirely seperate self contained system. You just scrape it off.

[Snake]

Not with how I built up my monk. I used alot of mythic stuff to keep it balanced out and offense in tendency.

Oh well. I may just cook up a totally new one if Zaer removes it. I tend to make my chars with their finished point in mind

[TheGlyphstone]

How so? Mythic isnt even a contuation of your level (ie 'Epic') its a entirely seperate self contained system. You just scrape it off.

On the other hand, if you've built your character from the ground up to have synergy with specific Mythic path abilities, scraping off the Mythic bits can leave you with gaping holes in the build. So it's possible that losing them results in needing a full rebuild if said synergies are no longer available.


Anyways, I think I've found the class-archetype combo I want, Mythic not required (but I like it, so I am neutral on its usage). Mesmerist with the Material Manipulator . Think heavy Stepford Wife vibes, with all of his minions flesh-sculpted into identical beautiful women.

[Snake]

On the other hand, if you've built your character from the ground up to have synergy with specific Mythic path abilities, scraping off the Mythic bits can leave you with gaping holes in the build. So it's possible that losing them results in needing a full rebuild if said synergies are no longer available.

This. This is what I'm talking about. *nod*

[ChaoticSky]

Anyways, I think I've found the class-archetype combo I want, Mythic not required (but I like it, so I am neutral on its usage). Mesmerist with the Material Manipulator .

Nice! I almost made one of those untill i found a template that worked with my brawler idea, a material Mesmerist was Plan B. Glad we got one afteral

Their shapeshifting thing is really neat, especially for more social stuff.

This. This is what I'm talking about. *nod*

Fair enough, I kinda always start from the bottom and build up so it didnt occure to me?

[Snake]

Hmm well I do like making characters I could do a full power version of the character I used for the "assassin" RP on another thread.  carryiing around massive claw attacks :3

[Zaer Darkwail]

We can axe the 'unkillable' part from mythic levels unless it's part of class mechanic or template mechanic (like lich cannot really die unless you sack his phylactery). Mythic however stays as it is. Do not worry; you may roflstomp as in overlord but there will be foes which make you crap pants in RL! I will adjust challenges accordingly but point of overlord is able to own most people in world not because unique power but rather sheer overwhelming power beyond world's comprehension. Ainz owned people while tying hands behind his back (he freaking hugged hardcore assassin to death despite he is a caster pretending to be warrior).

What comes to interaction of NPC's we can tone it down so they are 'dumber' than real people with preset personalities and lines so when suddenly your minions/cohorts start to show life (either controlled by GM or fellow players given permission to), that should be in itself be jaw slacking.

Also if you feel a MMORPG in 2117 which has allowed mature content and has allowed all sort criminal (and morally questionable) activity is a off, we can remove that part as well if other players feel okay with it. But, you would not be asking these things if you had read the long fluff in very first post in this thread. There are people living in MARS already over a generation in your people's backgrounds and there has been around decade for humans settling (and terraformating) other planets and settled them.

I can adjust and things if it makes game feel more inviting and interesting :). But only if all (who have worked chars already and shown interest) are okay with the idea.

[Snake]

for mature material, I think that teh whole "dual servers" or game modes that can toggle it on-off at the game start. 

[Pockets]

Honestly, I think we should leave the concept alone. We can still be killed, it's just really hard to do which fits with the whole concept of our characters being total badasses that take on entire raids with a handful of people instead of the standard raid group. The concept of a mature server fits rather well too. Given that it's both E and the server owner's had everyone who went onto said server sign a waiver before they could gain access to it.

As far as taking out the Mythic, that'd make a rebuild even more difficult for some than others.

[Lockepick]

I need work my end how it works exactly but let's say the gear does matter in minions (or cohorts) one way or another. Example if minions got only masterwork weapons, they will definately loose against group of gargoyles (or anything with magic bypassed DR).

I guess I'm not finding this especially comforting. There seems to be a lot of abstract stuff (the base, the defenses for that base, our minions) that is requiring a lot of micro-managing that I honestly can't imagine coming up. If we were going to make any adjustments to the setting, I'd rather we simplify how all that stuff works than reducing the power of the characters (since that's sort of the whole point).

[Drowdeviant]

Honestly, I think we should leave the concept alone. We can still be killed, it's just really hard to do which fits with the whole concept of our characters being total badasses that take on entire raids with a handful of people instead of the standard raid group. The concept of a mature server fits rather well too. Given that it's both E and the server owner's had everyone who went onto said server sign a waiver before they could gain access to it.

As far as taking out the Mythic, that'd make a rebuild even more difficult for some than others.

I totally agree with you Pockets. If if we are able to be slain permanently, our top tier equipment can still get stolen if someone puts us down for a short dirt nap (maybe even serving as adventure hooks of getting our shit back from those who stole it from our temporarily dead body). Hell Wrath of the Righteous made that point when you got to mythic tier 9 that even though you aren't dead permanently your stuff will disappear cause the bid bad ate your bodies after killing your asses.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Also if want see more curbstomping examples what should be possible for you guys; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er_MekNNtOk

Overall when Ainz spoke of 'negate attacks of lower level monsters' sounds difference of mythic and non-mythic. As there are powers in mythic which shut down effects of non-mythic foes. Not same extend (as be immune but resist lot better). Also I thought if tabletop is turned to MMO I imagine progression past 20th level is possible only gaining templates (or bought some in start) or by progress in mythic tiers than go actual levels. As I imagine one major expansion was opening a brand new area where only mythic tier/level heroes can enter (and to get mythic tier or level you need work your ass hard to get every tier, sort farming or long quests etc).

As Pockets mention the idea of 'rape in MMO VR not flying' is because of waiver written by those who enter said server. Everyone's head there is microchip which holds ID info so you cannot fake age and get under aged people said servers. So when waiver is written you accept the terms which mention that rapes on char is possible (there are safe zones but it's limited as like in WoW PvP servers where majority of world you can be attacked by opposed faction, or WoG's case, by any player). Death was nothing serious in WoG (penalty and some stuff looted from your body). But as game starts, death becomes a serious and real threat.

I guess I'm not finding this especially comforting. There seems to be a lot of abstract stuff (the base, the defenses for that base, our minions) that is requiring a lot of micro-managing that I honestly can't imagine coming up. If we were going to make any adjustments to the setting, I'd rather we simplify how all that stuff works than reducing the power of the characters (since that's sort of the whole point).

I can post in tomorrow more details on the fort upragdes, defenses and how gear works with minions/cohorts in regards mass combat. I could just make pre-set package list where says 'pay this and the guy counts having xx bonus in mass combat and individually they got xx gear'.

I totally agree with you Pockets. If if we are able to be slain permanently, our top tier equipment can still get stolen if someone puts us down for a short dirt nap (maybe even serving as adventure hooks of getting our shit back from those who stole it from our temporarily dead body). Hell Wrath of the Righteous made that point when you got to mythic tier 9 that even though you aren't dead permanently your stuff will disappear cause the bid bad ate your bodies after killing your asses.

Aye, this is issue as well. In WoG items could be soulbound (and thus not be stolen albeit expensive and needed RL credits to buy from game). In new world does not know soulbound system and is probably first things players note; that their gear can be stolen. So thus sign there are changes from the norm and feel their no longer in a game (and is meant as shocker). As even if it's VR and quite realistic, it's still a online game and there are things expected like menus, item shops, global chats, whispers etc.

[Kimmy]

 For the minions, I was considering taking a couple of cohorts and forming the start of a small Pantheon with the empirical lord & abyssal lord mythic powers. Not gods but it sounded like a Demon Lord/Demigod able to grant their own spells, police their clerics and paladins. Beong unkillable isn't really an issue but I thought it would make for great NPC & cohort backstories. A couple of young demigods in the making, now with a chance to start a real church- and do the godly bit right. Actually getting into the world and trying to meddle directly... it would add an interesting role playing element - especially if the current gods got involved for better or worse...

Is that an aspect you'd like to consider? Or not something you'd want touched? I don't mind about the unkillable aspect - it's fun either way. Though I might suggest the  Chinese mythology method in having those who die go to purgatory/limbo etc to be judged and delayed by the gods of death until they feel fit to release you. Be it hours days or years. Usually it's long unless you can bribe or convince a god to let you out early.. and the more often you die, the more upset they get...

Makes for great role play.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Establishing a pantheon is one potential angle/plot if want pursue it.

[ChaoticSky]

Also if you feel a MMORPG in 2117 which has allowed mature content and has allowed all sort criminal (and morally questionable) activity is a off, we can remove that part as well if other players feel okay with it. But, you would not be asking these things if you had read the long fluff in very first post in this thread. There are people living in MARS already over a generation in your people's backgrounds and there has been around decade for humans settling (and terraformating) other planets and settled them.

I can adjust and things if it makes game feel more inviting and interesting :). But only if all (who have worked chars already and shown interest) are okay with the idea.

Now now, i did read it. I'm just saying it sounds off. People living on Mars, or in a Plutocracy dont magically flip a switch that makes this kinda stuff okay. Humans have empathy build in. It also doesnt make economic sense, and your insisting that a corporate-run world would make terrible business decisions for no reason. What they want, what any ruling body needs is order and the ability to provide the necessities of life, otherwise they would never have survived as a government. Its all about bread and circus, to use the roman axiom. Now, VR entertainment provides a most excellent circus, no one is going to deny that. A population largely plugged into virtual worlds isnt going to care as much about the real one, while also keeping them docile and entertained, with your fingers in their pocket the whole time. Its great in function.

But for that to work people need to want to plug into their vice of choice... and there will be options, WOG wasnt the first and only VRMMO... theres other options out there. Both when it was released and currently. For it to become as big as it did, it would have needed to appeal to as wide a player base as possible, to provide a fun escape for large organizations, groups of friends and individuals. Now, does a game where your fun can be interrupted at any time by a marauding band of serial rapists who pin you down, and traumatically assault you for as long as they like with no repercussions of any sort (especially not legal ones!), sound like a game you would want to play?

It doesnt sound like one i would.

Oh sure im bet such things exist as long as the govt permits it, but they are more of a niche thing.. much like how Elli is a tiny niche of the internet (despite being way more friendly than your proposed WOG). For this VRMMO to have reached the rarefied heights of success and and popularity for over fifty years it needs to be a more benign experience rather than a horror story.



So to that end i would propose the following changes to your fluff;
-NPCs were clearly not sentient (let alone sapient), they could be anything from repeating the same lines over and over idiotically, to basic AI with some basic routines for various situations... but no one can or would ever mistake one for a real person with emotions and feelings.
-Sexual content in WOG was consensual (similar to SAO) it required two parties to give the okay, otherwise those regions were nonresponsive or reactive (ie, trying to grope someones tit would just be like trying to squeeze the tit of a statue, and the 'victim' wouldnt feel anything other than the physical sensation of contact) and bodies had 'built in underwear'. That said, something like two partners consenting and then playing out a rape fantasy is obviously something that could happen with various degrees of elaborateness. This also extended to NPCs, and a minority (city whores, some brothel wenches whos backstory supported it, some especially grateful quest givers if fulfilled the right criteria, minions you designed yourself, etc) could agree to sex, and were pretty much a higher class of Real Doll as far as that went.
-I could see people coming to our Guild, or similar ones like it if they wanted to have a rough night *wink* or similar things.
-This is only true for WOG though, there are likely other MMOs out there that were significantly more depraved (and were concomitantly less popular), but its entirely possble that members of our group may have also played these games.
-Our guild (and players) were not actually villians anymore than Ains' guild was. Were just played that role for fun and profit. (and maybe did a good enough job of it that the were probably no end to the rumours about us. Whatever the truth, we were all probably assumed to be pretty messed up people)
-The old game could function however it liked... but the new situation should function similar to real life/PF rules. If you die your dead, if you have a magic trick to return to life you can do so, but theres no magic 'you are not a corpse so you can be robbed' rule in play. One assumes that to loot our dead body any slayer would have to get past the rest of us.

This i think allows us to use any of the concepts we already have... we dont have to be good people out of game or ingame, some or all of us may have done some pretty dark shit either in other games or in WOG as part of a roleplay. But this way the game makes more sense, it functions alittle more reasonably, and gives us a chance to discover the new world we have landed in, deal with NPCs being people and exalt in our newfound freedom from the rules that used to bind us.

[Snake]

I'd support the whole adult server thing if it let you avoid char death by something like "the big good" (in this case sice we're all evil fucks) gets  a chance to cart you off and try to "redeem you" or something. If you dont' escape. you temporarily lose your "mythic power" for teh day until you can

or whatever @_@

and honestlty the micromanaging is what's killing me here.  Right at the start I donated 1/5th of my gp to the castle for updates to defense, hiring troops (in general) and enhancing teh small things. CAn't that count? LIke you get 880K worth of minions for general castle staff and defense?  You don't control them but they're what makes things run and stuff.

Well some of us may in fact be fledging gods you know. I know my char is with a "divine source" path ability. With domains in Strength and Earth

[Drowdeviant]

Also if want see more curbstomping examples what should be possible for you guys; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er_MekNNtOk

Give me time to get out all her feats Zaer, the vital strike feat chain is in my future.

[TheGlyphstone]

So I'm at a total loss on what to do Mythic-wise. There doesn't seem to be any Mythic material at all written for psychic/occult classes. Legendary Games made an Overmind Psionic path, but it's designed for a DSP-style Psionic ruleset instead of Paizo's occult rules.