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Author Topic: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?  (Read 2672 times)

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Online Oreo

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2014, 11:56:41 AM »
Just for purposes of reference, and since the specification is that of murder, I'm linking in the legal definition of murder.  Link goes to a more extensive article on the finer points.


Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
Thank you, Oniya.

The Bible's terminology for 'Thou shalt not kill', also has the meaning of murder with blood lust. There were cities of refuge where the criminals could flee until judges determined if it was accidental or a blood lust crime.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2014, 12:00:38 PM »
Most people recite that commandment as 'Thou shalt not kill' - the word in the Torah translates more properly as 'murder' (compulsive reader; the book was there).  I'm actually impressed when that much of a distinction is acknowledged in a discussion.

Offline Tairis

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2014, 12:10:16 PM »
Okay, now what you say, Tairis, is very worrisome. What do you mean, the appeal process should be simplified? As meikle said, there are innocent people put into death row already. The "convoluted legal system" is meant as a safeguard about such cases. And you want to remove it?

Also, the idea that death penalty could be served because of the defendant pleading guilty... now this is just completely wrong-headed. If the law worked this way, you'd basically remove any incentive for criminals to admitting to their action. You cannot punish people for cooperating with the legal system!

And your notion that it's not a problem that innocent people die on deathrows, as there are unjust deaths already is just... scary.

The US legal system as a whole is a byzantine web of contradictions and loop holes. It means that the only people that can fight court cases in the first place are those with the money to afford the skilled and powerful lawyers. But once you get into the appeals process it becomes a situation where any idiot can clog up the system. It needs a complete overhaul, not just for the death penalty but for everything from sentencing to jury selection.

The incentive for criminals to plead guilty would be the exact same one that gets them to plead guilty now: they're offered a plea deal. Otherwise they have no incentive to plead guilty as it is. Some of the most deranged (like Manson mentioned above) would plead guilty anyways. And if someone like the topic of this post that was truly repentant? Seems like they would too.

As for deaths... I'm not encouraging them. I'm simply stating one of the facts of life. Good people die every day. It is a tragedy. But we don't shut down our highways because thousands are killed in car accidents or stop building things because people are injured and killed on construction sights. The concept of 'we can't do this because someone undeserving might die' is a fallacy. Someone undeserving dies every day. Our job is to minimize that risk. Not try to eliminate it completely because it's a fools errand.

Offline Formless

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2014, 12:25:14 PM »
I couldn't have said it any better than Oniya and Zakharra.

Learn the difference between murder and an accident.

That is all I have to say in this matter.

And in regards to what Oreo said about the victim's family having a say in this , this is how it is done in my country. Or rather , the Islamic way. If the direct family members of the victim are all in favor of the murderer's death , then he shall beheaded. But if only one of these members forfeit that decision , then they are given a choice of two\

1- Forgive him completely , and thus the Murderer will be set free ( Which I am absolutely against. )

2- Demand compensation. Which is determined by the judge. ( It used to be a fixed number but recently there has been some changes. )

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2014, 02:51:53 PM »
Note, he said -murder-, with the intent to kill; not accidental death or killing, but specifically murder.  Please stop trying to make it out to be more than what he's actually saying, like meikle has been doing for much of this thread. Intentionally misstating what others have said to get something that they didn't say is very misleading and should be shameful for those who do it.

Wait. I'm not doing any intentional misstaking here: I know what he wrote. I'm simply trying to explore his logic more.

I know there's a difference between unintentional killing and premeditated murder... but the end result is the same: a person is dead. Should exact circumstances really matter?

And what about all these cases between accidental manslaughter and murder? Like reckless driving?

As for deaths... I'm not encouraging them. I'm simply stating one of the facts of life. Good people die every day. It is a tragedy. But we don't shut down our highways because thousands are killed in car accidents or stop building things because people are injured and killed on construction sights. The concept of 'we can't do this because someone undeserving might die' is a fallacy. Someone undeserving dies every day. Our job is to minimize that risk. Not try to eliminate it completely because it's a fools errand.

Note, thought, that we can't afford to shut down highways or stop building new infrastructure. Meanwhile, death penalty is not necessary: our civilization will not come to end, if criminals stop being executed...

Offline Tairis

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2014, 03:18:58 PM »
We could also function as a civilization without alcohol, yet it kills thousands of people too. The point is that the whole 'if one innocent person suffers because of X then we shouldn't do it' isn't a good argument. You can't operate a society that way.

There will always be a risk of punishing an innocent person, either via the death penalty or life in prison. Either way an innocent person would be suffering injustly.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2014, 04:38:14 PM »
We could also function as a civilization without alcohol, yet it kills thousands of people too. The point is that the whole 'if one innocent person suffers because of X then we shouldn't do it' isn't a good argument. You can't operate a society that way.

Why not? Following the alcohol example, you should note that there are multiple rules in place that regulate its use. Also, there *are* countries when alcohol is illegal.

And what's up "you can't operate society that way"? Back where I am, there is no death penalty and no-one suffers because it. That proves that death penalty isn't really necessary. And what isn't necessary should be discarded, if it's too risky.

Quote
There will always be a risk of punishing an innocent person, either via the death penalty or life in prison. Either way an innocent person would be suffering injustly.

Yeah, but death penalty is irreversible. That's the difference.

You people keep telling how horrible is having one's loved one murdered. I agree. But what about the families of all those people who were executed while innocent? Why aren't you concerned about their suffering? Why is your answer basically "Oh well, shit happens"?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2014, 05:31:27 PM »
Wait. I'm not doing any intentional misstaking here: I know what he wrote. I'm simply trying to explore his logic more.

I know there's a difference between unintentional killing and premeditated murder... but the end result is the same: a person is dead. Should exact circumstances really matter?

And what about all these cases between accidental manslaughter and murder? Like reckless driving

 You're purposefully ignoring the context the word he used. Yes someone is dead after the deed is done, but the intent meant was killing someone with the intention to kill them. ie 'Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.' Not accidental. There's a huge difference you're glossing over there.  The circumstances of the killing are very important and shouldn't be ignored just because someone was killed.

 With accidental manslaughter (this happened to my dad when he didn't see a vehicle coming and pulled out onto the highway. He survived, a woman in the other vehicle was killed) and the like, those are deemed what they are. Accidents. It's a tragedy that people die in some accidents, but this doesn't mean that the person who might have caused it deserves to be killed or life in prison. It's nowhere near being on the same level of something like murder. That's something entirely different and accidental death and intentional death shouldn't be considered the same thing. Shame on you if you think they should be.



Yeah, but death penalty is irreversible. That's the difference.

You people keep telling how horrible is having one's loved one murdered. I agree. But what about the families of all those people who were executed while innocent? Why aren't you concerned about their suffering? Why is your answer basically "Oh well, shit happens"?

 So? Life is irreversible. Everyone born is going to die. That's inevitable. People die all the time. When people die in accidents, it's basically; 'shit happens' because accidents do happen. You can do your best to see that they don't happen again and work to lessen them, but for most things, you will never stop them.  So yes some innocents will be charged, but in case you haven't noticed, those of us who are arguing for the death penalty are for those who -have- been convicted and their guilt can't be questioned. Ie, someone who is caught/seen doing it. It's damned hard to not consider them innocent when you have visual proof. As for the innocents, the best we can do is use better investigation techniques to clear as many of them as possible out of the system and start killing the rest so they keep from costing us so much money. Kill the ones who are 100% guilty, heavily investigate the rest and either let them go or kill them.  Better to let 1 innocent person be killed than to let 100 murderers (whose guilt is undeniable) go. Most of those 100 will return to lives of crime and cause more people to suffer because people like you wanted to spare a possible innocent.  It's one reason I dislike Batman. Because he doesn't kill, the Joker has been able to kill dozens if not hundreds of people. The Joker's insanity is being used as an excuse to not execute him. He should be killed, or at the least the Batman should break every bone and joint in the Joker's fingers, arms and feet and legs, or just snap his lower spine. The Joker would be much less a threat as a cripple. Leaving the Joker alive and unhurt when he -repeatedly- keeps getting out and killing people is directly the fault of the Batman's misplaced mercy.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2014, 05:52:57 PM »
You're purposefully ignoring the context the word he used.

No, I'm just asking a question. I'm not purposefully ignoring anything. I'd be grateful if you refrained from you accusatory tone.

Quote
So? Life is irreversible. Everyone born is going to die. That's inevitable. People die all the time. When people die in accidents, it's basically; 'shit happens' because accidents do happen. You can do your best to see that they don't happen again and work to lessen them, but for most things, you will never stop them.  So yes some innocents will be charged, but in case you haven't noticed, those of us who are arguing for the death penalty are for those who -have- been convicted and their guilt can't be questioned. Ie, someone who is caught/seen doing it. It's damned hard to not consider them innocent when you have visual proof. As for the innocents, the best we can do is use better investigation techniques to clear as many of them as possible out of the system and start killing the rest so they keep from costing us so much money. Kill the ones who are 100% guilty, heavily investigate the rest and either let them go or kill them.  Better to let 1 innocent person be killed than to let 100 murderers (whose guilt is undeniable) go.

But nobody's talking about letting them go! Even in Tucker's case, there was no talk of having her pardoned and released. It was only about changing her death penalty to a lifetime in prison.

And personally? If we need to keep 100 murderers in prison, because otherwise we might end up killing 1 innocent person, then yes, it's a fair price.

Really, just imagine that it is *you* who is about to be innocently executed. Would you still advocate the "shit happens" approach, if it concerned you? Or your loved one?

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2014, 06:17:31 PM »
We could also function as a civilization without alcohol, yet it kills thousands of people too. The point is that the whole 'if one innocent person suffers because of X then we shouldn't do it' isn't a good argument. You can't operate a society that way.

There will always be a risk of punishing an innocent person, either via the death penalty or life in prison. Either way an innocent person would be suffering injustly.

We've tried functioning as a civilization without alcohol.  It actually went really, really badly for us.

In the places where we just don't kill criminals anymore, nothing has actually changed except psychopaths don't get to enjoy people dying as often.

Comparing the death penalty to prohibition (impossible; people want drugs) or highways (necessary for the continued function of the nation) is dishonest and pretty idiotic.  There is 0 benefit to the death penalty.  It does not serve a purpose.  Policy should be driven by effect; if the effect of the death penalty is massive cost to the taxpayers and the lives of innocent people, what benefit makes those costs acceptable?

And nobody can provide one except that they think they should get to decide who lives and dies.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 06:21:43 PM by meikle »

Offline Blythe

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
This topic is becoming more heated than it needs to be.

This thread will be locked for 24 hours. Discussion can resume at that point.

Offline Blythe

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2014, 09:20:39 PM »
This thread is being unlocked, as it has been 24 hours. Civil discussion can continue.

Offline Silk

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2014, 05:38:16 AM »
I'm from the other side of the pond, but I do feel that a more expedient death penalty system should be in place for cases that are beyond a shadow of a doubt, such as repeat offenders, and people who there is no mistaking their involvement. But even that is purely to minimize the likelihood of a miscarriage of justice. Reforming and Repenting are great and all, but when 99.99% of the population can go about their lives without committing these crimes. (And I mean the serious crimes that warrant the death penalty) and the damage done to society as a result of these actions. It comes a little too late as far as I'm concerned.

As for the "it's Blood for Blood" rally, There is a few things to consider. 1. They have proven that they are unstable or incapable of living by society's rules, and therefore are not fit to live within society. 2. In many cases the Death penalty is actually a mercy. 3. By keeping them alive, you are only increasing the likelihood of them repeating the offense. I'd sooner remove the life of the guilty than risk the lives of more innocents. 4. It serves as a hard line for others of society to not follow suit as the ultimate punishment for severe actions. It's very much was the case in the UK until recently, a life sentence was like 20 years, And that was only overturned in response to Lee Rigby's murder.

Offline Jusey1

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2014, 07:29:25 AM »
Death penalty has it's place and it is for the truly evil minded people who will ALWAYS do wrong again if given the chance.

However, those kind of people are extremely rare... Everybody else should be given the chance to be reform and become a good individual for society.

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2014, 08:12:13 AM »
I'm from the other side of the pond, but I do feel that a more expedient death penalty system should be in place for cases that are beyond a shadow of a doubt, such as repeat offenders, and people who there is no mistaking their involvement.
In the US, the criteria for conviction is that someone's guilt must be certain "beyond a reasonable doubt."  There is no 100% certainty.  Innocent people are still convicted.

Quote
As for the "it's Blood for Blood" rally, There is a few things to consider. 1. They have proven that they are unstable or incapable of living by society's rules, and therefore are not fit to live within society. 2. In many cases the Death penalty is actually a mercy. 3. By keeping them alive, you are only increasing the likelihood of them repeating the offense. I'd sooner remove the life of the guilty than risk the lives of more innocents. 4. It serves as a hard line for others of society to not follow suit as the ultimate punishment for severe actions. It's very much was the case in the UK until recently, a life sentence was like 20 years, And that was only overturned in response to Lee Rigby's murder.
We have prisons to segregate people who cannot live with society.  People get too often hung up on punishment and forget that a prison's function is to remove people from society.  In the US, our laws forbid (though we ignore those laws, yes) cruel and unusual punishment.  If prisoners are not treated cruelly, murdering them is not merciful.  Prisoners aren't going to kill innocent people from within prison (save, perhaps, prison guards.)  The death sentence has not shown to be an effective criminal deterrent in the US, and states that allow executions have, on average, higher rates of violent crime (as cited elsewhere in this very thread.)  It's almost as if the sort of culture that encourages violence against criminals is also the sort of culture that encourages violence in general.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 08:16:13 AM by meikle »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »
In the US, the criteria for conviction is that someone's guilt must be certain "beyond a reasonable doubt."  There is no 100% certainty.  Innocent people are still convicted.

 There can be 100% certainty. Being seen doing it, being caught -on- film/video, being literally caught red handed, admitting to guilt and such is one way of doing it. Forensic science is getting better and better and the preponderance of cameras, it's harder to get away with stuff anymore. Which means there are some cases guilt can be determined to be 100%.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2014, 11:51:45 AM »
Just a note: admitting to guilt should *not* be treated as proof, not alone. There's been cases of people admitting to things they didn't do.

For instance, a recent case from my country: two women were murdered and the person who got sentenced is guy who admitted to doing it. The police had no other proof of his guilt. Right now, there's a legal battle to revise his trial, as the man is actually mentally handicapped, with IQ of 60 - and his family claims that he actually didn't understand what he was admitting to...

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2014, 12:22:09 PM »
Just a note: admitting to guilt should *not* be treated as proof, not alone. There's been cases of people admitting to things they didn't do.

Agreed.  Anyone who doubts this should revisit the story of Michael Crowe.

Offline DemonessOfDeathValley

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2014, 12:25:07 PM »
Cases like that are why do not and cannot support the death penalty.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2014, 12:39:09 PM »
I honestly do not see a reason to rehash my stance on the death penalty. Everyone that has posted in favor of it has posted their reasons which are ignored, mocked, twisted and turned around on them by those that oppose the death penalty. This is a pointless "debate" because opinions are not going to change.

The only thing I am going to add to this is prisons were meant to not only segregate criminals from the general populace but to also rehabilitate the criminals so that they would, upon release, be productive and law abiding citizens. The only thing prisons have done is 1: become a profit center for corporations that own them and 2: segregate those convicted from the general populace. There is no actual attempts at rehabilitation done.

It's alright to have high ideals but do not expect everyone else to agree with them or accept them. This whole "no one should ever be killed" crap is just that... crap. There are some people who do not deserve to live.

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2014, 03:30:09 PM »
There are some people who do not deserve to live.
And you think you are qualified to make that decision?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2014, 03:38:03 PM »
And you think you are qualified to make that decision?

Pol Pot - he deserved death.
Hitler - he deserved death
John Wayne Gacy - he deserved death
Ted Bundy - he deserved death
Charles Manson - he deserves death

I can go on... but to answer your question in one word? Yes.

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2014, 04:40:12 PM »
I can go on... but to answer your question in one word? Yes.
Ironically, one person from your list also had that attitude. He thought himself qualified to make the decision about who "deserves" to live, and who doesn't. That was some 70 years ago here in Germany, and it didn't end well for any of the involved groups.

I challenge you to show me a single court, a single judge, who has never made a wrong decision, who has never had one of his sentences reversed or overruled. As long as there can't be 100% certainty, you're willing to kill innocents. You'd rather kill a dozen innocents, then not kill one criminal. And that's complete and utter madness!

If you think the death penalty is okay in the USA (a nation that freely tortures, has government goals influence court decisions, and openly disobeys international conventions), do you also think the death penalty is okay in Russia, China, or North Korea?

Btw...
...do you think the investment bankers, who brought about the financial crisis with their infinite greed, and ruined countless existences, deserve to live?
...do you think George W. Bush, who plunged the US into several senseless wars based on lies and public deception for economical reasons, deserves to live?
...do you think Keith Alexander, who lied to Congress and led an unprecedented attack on privacy and civil freedom world wide, deserves to live?

Where do you draw the line? It's not okay to kill one other person, but it's okay to send thousands of soldiers to their deaths, even though one knows the war is wrong and the public deceived about the reasons? It's okay to ruin the lives of thousands, out of personal greed and corruption? It's okay to undermine the democratic foundations of several nations by errecting a totalitarian surveillance apparatus that would make the StaSi green with envy?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 04:41:19 PM by Passion and Desire »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2014, 05:14:54 PM »
First off - stop with the demanding what you know cannot be provided. No one is perfect. You know this, I know this, so stop demanding that my personal opinion be backed up by something that cannot be given.

It is MY PERSONAL OPINION. Don't like it? Tough. You do not get to choose what my PERSONAL opinion is.

Second - I really REALLY do not appreciate being likened to a mass murdering fuck. There is a HUGE difference in my saying "if you are a mass murdering fuck you deserve for your peers to judge you unworthy of living with the rest of us" and my opinion making me similar to a mass murdering fuck. I do expect an apology for that.

Third - stop trying to further muddy the waters by throwing in other countries. If I had my way about it anyone that killed with malicious intent would die for their actions. However, each country has it's own laws. I will stick with discussing the country who's laws I know no matter how much you decide to insult us Americans.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2014, 05:24:39 PM »
This thread has been locked once already due to incivility.  If it is locked again, it will be permanent.  I'm also leaving a link here to Vekseid's stickied post about logical fallacies.