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Author Topic: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?  (Read 2669 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2014, 10:56:38 PM »
Sorry homeslice, if your budget stops at insurance and internet access, you're hanging out at the bottom.  If you're making $50k a year, you can afford to go to school.

You might want to re-examine the annual cost of a college education.

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2014, 10:57:27 PM »
A note meikle. Just because IO doesn't hold to the SAME values as you does not mean she does not value humanity or see the essential value of human life.

It just means she values it differently to you.

This does not make her wrong any more than you are wrong.

Let's not make this discussion into degrading others for disagreeing with beliefs that are not fact. Everyone's opinion is valid and should not be held against them.

Also when did this become a race argument? Up to now no one has once brought up race and suddenly you are saying the death penalty is completely based on race.

Especially considering Tucker was white.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2014, 11:01:12 PM »
I am going to ask that you tone it down. I don't appreciate you twisting my words to say I would kill my own children when I certainly never said such a thing. If you cannot discuss this without resorting to such tactics then maybe you need to step away.

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2014, 11:02:20 PM »
A note meikle. Just because IO doesn't hold to the SAME values as you does not mean she does not value humanity or see the essential value of human life.
Dude she said she'd let her own children get executed if it meant killing criminals.  She is more concerned with killing people than protecting people.

Quote
You might want to re-examine the annual cost of a college education.
If you're making $50,000 a year, you can afford to spend $22,000, especially considering that number includes the cost of food and housing.

What are you doing with the other $28,000?

Quote
I am going to ask that you tone it down. I don't appreciate you twisting my words to say I would kill my own children when I certainly never said such a thing. If you cannot discuss this without resorting to such tactics then maybe you need to step away.
I asked, are you okay with knowing that your children might one day be executed for a crime they are innocent of?

You said, "Yes."  In fact you said it in all caps, and bold.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2014, 11:03:31 PM »
Including college education as a "baseline" standard is a terribly bad idea.  Much of the reason college is so expensive in the US is because of this mindset, and people thinking that a diploma is an end to the ills of their environment (crime, poverty, etc.)

We need more plumbers, electricians, tradesmen, mechanics, etc.


Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2014, 11:05:23 PM »
We need more plumbers, electricians, tradesmen, mechanics, etc.
Many people in poor conditions are blocked out of these professions by the cost of education, as well.  Not everyone needs 4-year degrees, but yes, more programs to provide training into skilled trades would be excellent as well, and many of these are taught at colleges (2 year colleges, community colleges, etc.)  Directed educational support is ideal; paying people to study into things that we need people to do is ideal.

What we really don't want is what we're doing now, with millions of people fighting for cash register jobs because they're not qualified for and can't afford to learn to do anything else.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:13:34 PM by meikle »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2014, 11:07:54 PM »
I said if they committed the crime then yes, I am fine with the death penalty. If they did not do the crime then I would do everything in my power to prove them innocent. But I am not going to say 'get rid of the death penalty' just because a very small chance that my children MIGHT end up falsely accused.

And I'll say this as civilly as I can. You do not know me. You do not know what my other personal stances are. I'd appreciate that you not twist my words again. I do not appreciate you trying to make me out to be the villain just because I do not agree with you nor am I willing to change my mind to what you believe. You have your opinion, I have mine. Respect mine as I am respecting yours.

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2014, 11:16:19 PM »
Quote
"Are you willing to risk the lives of people you love, innocent people, to make that happen?"
Quote
Yes.

IF killing innocent people is a crime worthy of death
AND you are willing to kill innocent people to punish the guilty
THEN

you fill in the blank.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2014, 11:21:01 PM »
If you're making $50,000 a year, you can afford to spend $22,000, especially considering that number includes the cost of food and housing.

What are you doing with the other $28,000?

Rent or mortgage (more than likely rent).  Utilities.  Transportation.  Health care.  Food for the people in the household that aren't attending college.  If it's a dual-income home (which is the only way you're likely to get an average of 50K these days), then there's child care.


Offline Iniquitous

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2014, 11:21:24 PM »
One last time since you are not listening.

I have my opinion. You have yours. I am respecting yours no matter how silly I may think it is. I am asking that you respect mine no matter how horrible you think it is.

Real simple here meikle. I do not agree with you, you do not agree with me. You have not given me any proof that removing the death penalty is going to improve things for everyone while I have pointed out, repeatedly, that there are people out there that cannot be rehabilitated and put back into society and it is those people that should be executed.

You can stop trying to force your opinion on me now. My opinion isn't going to change.

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2014, 11:40:19 PM »
Rent or mortgage (more than likely rent).  Utilities.  Transportation.  Health care.  Food for the people in the household that aren't attending college.  If it's a dual-income home (which is the only way you're likely to get an average of 50K these days), then there's child care.
Not every dual-income home has kids.  If you're living at home with your family, you're probably not paying for a significant portion of that $22,000 (on-campus housing.)   I mean, I guess if you decided to start a family before you decided to go to school, it's going to be a lot harder.

Fortunately, for a lot of people, there are alternative approaches to education that aren't universities and are much, much cheaper.  My point however was that if you're only making enough money to get by, you're probably not actually middle class.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:41:55 PM by meikle »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2014, 11:46:08 PM »
Not every dual-income home has kids.  If you're living at home with your family, you're probably not paying for a significant portion of that $22,000 (on-campus housing.) 

It's the kids in those families that I was talking about.  If you're making 50K a year, then you most likely already have a college education.  Otherwise, you're making considerably less. 

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2014, 11:46:39 PM »
Not every dual-income home has kids.  If you're living at home with your family, you're probably not paying for a significant portion of that $22,000 (on-campus housing.)   I mean, I guess if you decided to start a family before you decided to go to school, it's going to be a lot harder.

Do you realize how expensive college is to afford?  It is out of reach for the majority of American families, which is part of the reason average debt is nearly $30,000.

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2014, 12:30:24 AM »
Let me clarify. My family is middle class.

I personally am not. I live with my mom who makes 30 something k a year plus my dads pension which is another 20-30 k a year.

I make 17k a year with no college education working full time with no benefits.

I pay for my own car, my own health insurance, my own car insurance, rent, some groceries and house necessities, gas (which in itself is a significant portion of my weekly earnings), and other misc. bills.

My mom pays a morgage, electric, water, cable, internet, car, insurance (both health and car), the majority of groceries, home improvement necessities, housing items both big and small, and other misc. bills.

My mom has enough money to live comfortably. I make enough to live with my mom and live comfortably. She could afford to help me pay for college,  but that's because with my dad's pension she is in upper middle class rather than lower middle class, and has some extra to spare. However, that would mean she couldn't save for retirement.

And I'm not talking a 30k a year college. I'm talking about community college which is where I was going until the money ran out.

Regardless this is drastically off topic. I mentioned the education thing because it was a clear example of how our prisons do not serve to punish but rather to reward criminals for bad behavior by handing them something that is out of reach for many many people in the country.

Offline meikle

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2014, 12:44:25 AM »
Do you realize how expensive college is to afford?  It is out of reach for the majority of American families, which is part of the reason average debt is nearly $30,000.

Having attended both a community college (paid for out-of-pocket while working part time) and a state university, yes, I'm very aware of how much a college education costs.

I feel like there's an important distinction to be made between the Middle Class (as in the Dwindling American-) and middle class as in the median.  I guess maybe people are talking about the latter, and I'm talking about the former.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 12:46:15 AM by meikle »

Offline Oreo

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2014, 08:02:14 AM »
Maybe unrelated but.. how on earth is it possible that a nation that is so prat on human rights still allows the death penalty? It's medieval and barbaric in my opinion.
What bothers me more than this is that more funds go toward housing criminals than toward helping the homeless.

Offline Tairis

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2014, 08:57:42 AM »
The death penalty costs more because of our convoluted legal system that allows for endless legal battles that take decades to resolve. The death penalty needs fixing, not removing. Establish a simple and final appeals process for those special cases. Set guidelines on when it can be issued (perpetrator admitting guilt, credible eye witness confirmation of crime, or confirmed DNA evidence). And then when it's done, it's done. You get the sentence, there's a one year appeal period (being generous) and then it's time to face the music.

I see the talk about 'reform' and 'repenting'... reforming and repenting is meaningless. You being sorry doesn't change the fact that someone was brutally murdered by your actions. And it's quite easy to have time to ponder your religion and repent when the taxpayers are housing and feeding you for the rest of your life, with no possibility that you'll ever have to actually do anything meaningful other than talk about how sorry you are.

Is there going to come a time when an innocent man suffers because of the perfect set of circumstances? Yes. But innocent men are killed by sleep deprived or drug addled doctors, government withholding of proper care like the VA incident, and hundreds of other unjust, unfair ways. This isn't the 1970s anymore. We do have DNA testing and superior forensic science. We do not embrace 'casual racism' as we did 50 years ago.

The law needs to do its job. You don't 'reform' from raping and murdering a woman and stuffing her in a barrel or beating a mans head in with a hammer so you can buy crack. You find a way to make whomever you murdered not dead and we can talk about how 'fair' the death penalty is. Because otherwise I see it as a simple balancing act.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2014, 10:49:13 AM »
Okay, now what you say, Tairis, is very worrisome. What do you mean, the appeal process should be simplified? As meikle said, there are innocent people put into death row already. The "convoluted legal system" is meant as a safeguard about such cases. And you want to remove it?

Also, the idea that death penalty could be served because of the defendant pleading guilty... now this is just completely wrong-headed. If the law worked this way, you'd basically remove any incentive for criminals to admitting to their action. You cannot punish people for cooperating with the legal system!

And your notion that it's not a problem that innocent people die on deathrows, as there are unjust deaths already is just... scary.

Offline Formless

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2014, 11:03:35 AM »
Simply put , if someone murders me ( not a dear family member , not an innocent stranger... etc. ) Then they deserve to die.

The idea of someone killing me , then be put in some prison , fed , bathed , taken care of , protected from any odds of being wrongly killed just like I was , is wrong. When someone ends my life , or anyone else's , then they forfeit their right to live. Just because someone is dead doesn't mean their previous existence was worthless. Call it bloodlust , or call it what you wish. But don't expect me to agree with you that my life is meaningless.

Before you ridicule a severe punishment , look at the reason why it is so severe.

If you think you can label a price on someone's life , then you're in no position to judge the process of punishment.

Since life is far more valuable than anything else in the world , then the only thing to make up for a lost one is another life , the life of the one who took the first one.

Offline Oreo

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2014, 11:18:04 AM »
This is kind of along the same line as Formless' thoughts. I am personally not for the death penalty except in extreme cases, where pride is taken in the deed, and the crime undisputed; like Manson.

That aside, I would rather see the punishment being determined by the injured parties/family. Only they can determine the value of life lost, the wishes of the person murdered. It should not be the judge's decision, or the public's decision, nor their concern.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2014, 11:28:16 AM »
Simply put , if someone murders me ( not a dear family member , not an innocent stranger... etc. ) Then they deserve to die.

So... would you be in favour of death penalty for vehicular homicides? Or medical errors resulting in a patient's death? There are many way one can cause another person's death.

BTW. Earlier this thread, someone said that death penalty is Christian because of the "eye for an eye" from the Old Testament. Let me answer that: this is not true. The big point of Christ was the annulment of the Old Covenant and introducing New Covenant. Christ taught that "eye for an eye" is wrong, as in the eyes of God, we are all guilty and worthy of judgement. Christianity is not about "eye for an eye", it's about "judge not, or you will be judged, too".

Not to mention, there's "You shall not murder" right there, in the Commandments.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2014, 11:36:29 AM »
'To murder' is different from 'to kill'.  'Homicide' doesn't even have to mean 'murder'.  Taking your vehicular homicide example, there's a world of difference between hitting a patch of ice and careening into a busload of nuns, failing to see a pedestrian when you swerve to avoid something in the road, and driving around a parking lot three times, running over your victim each time.

Because of the unique circumstances of every death, we have a justice system that examines those circumstances in sometimes excruciating detail - more so when the crime is considered a capital offense.  You are not going to find a black and white 'death penalty for ______ crime' division.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2014, 11:40:42 AM »
'To murder' is different from 'to kill'.  'Homicide' doesn't even have to mean 'murder'.  Taking your vehicular homicide example, there's a world of difference between hitting a patch of ice and careening into a busload of nuns, failing to see a pedestrian when you swerve to avoid something in the road, and driving around a parking lot three times, running over your victim each time.

That's true. But, regardless of the exact circumstances, the result is that the person is dead. So, I wonder what's Formless take on these cases, if he believes in "death for death" approach.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2014, 11:42:04 AM »
So... would you be in favour of death penalty for vehicular homicides? Or medical errors resulting in a patient's death? There are many way one can cause another person's death.

BTW. Earlier this thread, someone said that death penalty is Christian because of the "eye for an eye" from the Old Testament. Let me answer that: this is not true. The big point of Christ was the annulment of the Old Covenant and introducing New Covenant. Christ taught that "eye for an eye" is wrong, as in the eyes of God, we are all guilty and worthy of judgement. Christianity is not about "eye for an eye", it's about "judge not, or you will be judged, too".

Not to mention, there's "You shall not murder" right there, in the Commandments.

  Note, he said -murder-, with the intent to kill; not accidental death or killing, but specifically murder.  Please stop trying to make it out to be more than what he's actually saying, like meikle has been doing for much of this thread. Intentionally misstating what others have said to get something that they didn't say is very misleading and should be shameful for those who do it.

Pretty much everyone that is for the death penalty (which I am in favor for) have stated fairly specific reasons why. Tairis states it very well and I believe in what he says there. It's an easy and concise way of reforming it.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do you remember Karla Faye Tucker?
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2014, 11:47:36 AM »
Just for purposes of reference, and since the specification is that of murder, I'm linking in the legal definition of murder.  Link goes to a more extensive article on the finer points.


Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.