Do you ever get sick of the toxic stuff on forums?

[Paladin101]

What's the point of sarcasm if you're going to be upfront about it? It's usually easy to call sarcasm, but sometimes you have to admit you've fallen to Poe's Law if people don't get it. I usually just stick a smiley at the end. But I stopped using it because I know a lot of people who use smileys as a way of being passive-aggressive. Like sometimes putting a smiley may turn out to be doubly insulting in certain situations.

Maybe we just have to use apologies more often? Even a brief "sorry" can disarm a conversation.

I would only say sorry in an online debate if I was using the sarcastic font.

>.>

[Lost Boy]

Yeah I do get sick of the toxicity on forums, I have rather conservative views politically, spiritually and socially. If I voice those views even in a way where I am neither directly responding to anyone else or attacking them I get flamed by some Leftist who despite claiming they preach tolerance is anything but, I find that is a common thing to happen.

The other thing I have noticed is people who when they can't counter an argument or comment start ranting "Nazi" or some other bile, once they do that the argument is over and they also forget historically that the Communists were far worse anyway.

[Valthazar]

Yeah I do get sick of the toxicity on forums, I have rather conservative views politically, spiritually and socially. If I voice those views even in a way where I am neither directly responding to anyone else or attacking them I get flamed by some Leftist who despite claiming they preach tolerance is anything but, I find that is a common thing to happen.

Don't worry, I hold several right-leaning views when it comes to the economy, and so long as you are able to efficiently articulate your perspectives, you will find nothing but respect from people here on this forum.

[Sabby]

Don't worry, I hold several right-leaning views when it comes to the economy, and so long as you are able to efficiently articulate your perspectives, you will find nothing but respect from people here on this forum.

This may just be me, but I've run into plenty of incidents where exactly the opposite is the case. The person is polite and well spoken, and seems like a completely rational and nice person, but the stance they are holding is just frankly disgusting. And they are completely aware of how it comes across to others, yet defend it as if it were a minor, inconsequential difference of opinion.

In those kinds of cases, I certainly do lose respect for the speaker, regardless of how well they spoke.

[Valthazar]

This may just be me, but I've run into plenty of incidents where exactly the opposite is the case. The person is polite and well spoken, and seems like a completely rational and nice person, but the stance they are holding is just frankly disgusting.

Their stance may be disgusting to you, but that does not make their stance invalid.  Unless you can demonstrate that there is a logical fallacy in their viewpoint, they are very much entitled to their perspective, and deserving of at least basic respect.

[Sabby]

Never said it invalidated their perspective. As you say, everyone is entitled to hold an opinion. But I must disagree with you that everyone's opinions are due respect. If we were to respect every position held by every person, there would be no value to holding an actually respectable opinion.

Do you give this basic respect to, say, White Supremacists, for example? We both agree that they are entitled to their opinions, but are they also entitled respect?

[Lost Boy]

It depends, would you flame or disrespect a Muslim radical or Black Panther or do you only disrespect people who you feel don't match your politics?

This is where the problem lies, when you make a personal judgement on someone which is hypocritical than things tend to start getting crazy.

I do agree though, I have read things written by people which totally disgust me, but then what disgusts me might make total sense to you. Another problem again.

[Valthazar]

Do you give this basic respect to, say, White Supremacists, for example? We both agree that they are entitled to their opinions, but are they also entitled respect?

I didn't mean that I respect their views, but I meant that they are deserving of respect when practicing their freedom of speech.  We can disagree with them and find them to be bigots, but that doesn't give us the right to make an attempt to mute their voices out from expression.

Not at all related to that issue (which we can all agree is incredibly biased), but Lost Boy makes a good point that on many forums, conservative-leaning views are subconsciously muted out from discussion.

[Sabby]

I'm afraid I don't understand the way your using the word 'respect' here. I've never heard it used this way before.

Of course I think that two people in a structured debate should be treated equally, regardless of what their saying. Is that what you mean by respecting their views? Sorry if that's not it, this is just a very strange phrasing I'm not aware of.

[Lost Boy]

"Respect" does not mean agreeing with someone or necessarily saying their view is valid, for example I disagree with vegetarianism, but I respect a person's right to be one. It doesn't mean I agree or think it is a good choice.

Essentially the use of the word Respect in this case (and it's a common use of the term) means to listen to someone's point of view without resorting to name calling, flaming, bullying or some other uncivil behaviour. It is possible to just agree to disagree with someone without making a song and dance about it.

This is where fights occur online, people start with the "Nazi" or some other stupid supposed insult and it just leads nowhere and is anything but mature.

[Valthazar]

I'm afraid I don't understand the way your using the word 'respect' here. I've never heard it used this way before.

Of course I think that two people in a structured debate should be treated equally, regardless of what their saying. Is that what you mean by respecting their views? Sorry if that's not it, this is just a very strange phrasing I'm not aware of.

I've seen situations on other forums where people immediately dismiss conservative perspectives, due to culturally-acceptable statements that lack any factual rebuttal.  For example, I hold legitimate economic perspectives regarding this frequently cited income wage gap between men and women, and I've had many liberal posters acknowledge my views, and respectfully disagree with my perspective of the issue.  However, this type of intelligent dialogue becomes impossible when people choose to sling monickers like, "you're being sexist," - when that couldn't be further from the truth.  Anyone who knows me can tell you that I treat women with the highest respect, and simply want them to be able to make life choices that maximize their happiness.

Of course, many conservatives throw monickers like this all the time, don't get me wrong.  But I notice it happening less often in the types of forums I visit (which tend to be considerably more liberal in nature, since I enjoy role-playing).

[Sabby]

May just be the nature of the internet, but that usage of the word seems like unnecessary complication >.< See, these last few posts of us talking about whether views are due respect, I literally just mean 'do you still respect X after hearing Y?'. So sorry if that's caused some confusion >.< I'll try and restate myself.

Regardless of my opinion of a person or their beliefs, I do try, like most sensible adults, to continue to interact with them fairly and politely, so long as they're still making that same effort. However, there are cases where I feel as though my only option is to say "I'm sorry, but what you just said is absolutely appalling, and I have lost respect for you as a person because of it"

Now to try my question again, do you feel that you can't voice that loss of respect for the person without disrespecting their right to fair debate?

[Valthazar]

I understand what you mean now.  I think it's perfectly okay to personally find someone's views appalling, and communicate that - that's your choice.  The problem comes when you let this initial reaction prevent you from hearing everything that they have to say, and making knee-jerk judgments and assumptions.  Doing this would prevent an intelligent discussion, since you are preventing yourself from hearing the full perspectives of all.

For example, I'm just giving a hypothetical example here that I just made up:  There might be some sort of an economic reason why someone thinks that gay marriage is not a good idea.  It would not be a civil debate if someone responding to that immediately assumes that person is a bigot against homosexuals, or a religious fanatic, and immediately dismisses their entire concept. 

With that being said, many conservatives make assumptions like this too.

[Sabby]

Okay, we understand each other then :) Damn English.

[meikle]

would you flame or disrespect a Muslim radical or Black Panther or do you only disrespect people who you feel don't match your politics?

I get flamed by some Leftist who despite claiming they preach tolerance is anything but, I find that is a common thing to happen.

Do you maybe find yourself the subject of disrepsect because you lace every post you make with a dig against people who are not politically aligned with you?

people start with the "Nazi" or some other stupid supposed insult

counter an argument or comment start ranting "Nazi" or some other bile, once they do that the argument is over and they also forget historically that the Communists were far worse anyway.

Or perhaps it is because you inexplicably come to the aid of Nazis in threads where they are otherwise not mentioned at all?

[Moondazed]

Lost Boy, perhaps a bit of research into Non-Violent Communication would help you not to be insulting when you don't mean to be (unless you mean to be, in which case you accomplish your goal)?

http://www.cnvc.org/about/what-is-nvc.html

[Neysha]

I dunno. I cant Quite find myself to be insulted by that language. When quoted by itself I guess it stands out more,  which is the point of quoting it by itself, but I'll be honest, without using word search it took me a few re-reads on my phone to find the offending passages since it didn't stick out to me initially. Maybe my reading comprehension isn't non-violent enough.

[Moondazed]

Or you're so accustomed to online communication that's laced with emotive terms that you don't notice it

[meikle]

I dunno. I cant Quite find myself to be insulted by that language. When quoted by itself I guess it stands out more,  which is the point of quoting it by itself, but I'll be honest, without using word search it took me a few re-reads on my phone to find the offending passages since it didn't stick out to me initially. Maybe my reading comprehension isn't non-violent enough.

Well, they're not insults, they're just underhanded little barbs.  "Would you ... disrespect a Muslim radical or Black Panther or do you only disrespect people who you feel don't match your politics?"  That's a loaded question; brings to mind, "Do you still hit your wife?"  There's a suggestion in the phrasing: "Your political views align with those of Muslim radicals and the Black Panthers," subtle but present.  It's not strictly and insult, but it's certainly a dishonest way to communicate.

Bringing up the political party (or political leaning) of your detractors in what was otherwise a mostly apolitical thread is absolutely not the right way to behave if you want to keep things civil and polite, and "Leftist" is not language that you commonly see people use to describe themselves (it's one of those words, like "progressive", that you often hear right-wing talking heads say as if it's a curse word: Leftists.)  You can't on one hand suggest that you really wish the discussion environment was less toxic and on the other hand trying to cast blame nebulously on People Who Disagree With My Politics as the offenders.  It's dishonest, and it's certainly not polite.  Toxic, maybe, since that's the word people want to use.

Nobody else has spoken about Nazis, but on two occasions Lost Boy has lamented that people like to call him a Nazi (not that it's even an insult to be called a Nazi, see, "supposed insult", see "the Communists were far worse anyway," as if the crimes of the Soviet Union and other communist regimes somehow mitigate the atrocities committed by WW2 Germany, etc.) 

I'm not saying, "I'm insulted."  I'm not even saying, "These are especially insulting."  What I'm saying is, "If you want people to treat you and your arguments with respect, maybe you should behave respectfully yourself."

[Lost Boy]

Well, they're not insults, they're just underhanded little barbs.  "Would you ... disrespect a Muslim radical or Black Panther or do you only disrespect people who you feel don't match your politics?"  That's a loaded question; brings to mind, "Do you still hit your wife?"  There's a suggestion in the phrasing: "Your political views align with those of Muslim radicals and the Black Panthers," subtle but present.  It's not strictly and insult, but it's certainly a dishonest way to communicate.

Bringing up the political party of your detractors in what was otherwise a mostly apolitical thread is absolutely not the right way to behave if you want to keep things civil and polite, and "Leftist" is not language that you commonly see people use to describe themselves.  Stereotyping people / exposing your bias in a neutral forum is not a very good way to show that you want to be polite.

Nobody else has spoken about Nazis, but on two occasions Lost Boy has lamented that people like to call him a Nazi (not that it's even an insult to be called a Nazi, see, "supposed insult", see "the Communists were far worse anyway," as if the crimes of the Soviet Union and other communist regimes somehow mitigate the atrocities committed by WW2 Germany, etc.

I'm not saying, "I'm insulted."  I'm not even saying, "These are especially insulting."  What I'm saying is, "If you want people to treat you with respect, maybe behave respectfully."

I think you have misunderstood. I was referring to comments I have seen on other forums and sites and how some of these emotive terms and insults not only bring an end to intelligent discussion but also create arguments.

And once again you misunderstand me or perhaps want to misunderstand me, I really don't know. Another poster mentioned not wanting to respect the views of White Supremacists, ok fine, but my point was would he have the same view towards Black Panthers or Muslim radicals, it was simply a question asking if he picks and chooses which groups he respects or is he particularly against one group in particular, he brought up White Supremacists so I used Non White groups who also have a supremacy agenda of their own. It could have just as easily been a case of would you slam McDonalds for fatty food yet excuse KFC. That was the example he cited though, a race group was chosen so I cited two other examples.

I feel insulted that you would accuse me of dishonest communication, I was quite upfront about what I wrote and I feel you are choosing to make something of it that just isn't the case. In some ways I thank you as you are proving my point about how these arguments tend to blow up when they shouldn't.

Why did I bring up Leftists? Because that is the experience I have had, once again you choose to take insult where none existed.

Ok, the Nazi thing, how many times have you seen insults get thrown around? I saw another thread on this site where the term "reds" was used, also an insult, once again you choose to be insulted and I really don't know why. The term Nazi is the most over used insult there is, "Grammar Nazi" anyone? Quite often it is used in a way that defines someone as a perfectionist even, and yes it is also used in the same way as that other N word which is also used to try and put people in their places and silence debate.

Right now for example I feel quite attacked by you, I don't know why, I haven't attacked you and I was just voicing my opinion, but I have said things that have upset you even though they were never intended to be taken as such and instead of just asking me to clarify you accuse me of being insulting.

This is exactly what this thread is about, do you ever get sick of toxic stuff on forums. This is how it happens, someone gets offended and attacks rather than just discussing.

[Valthazar]

Lost Boy, with all due respect, it is conservatives who remarks like this, and have a vendetta against liberals, that give right-leaning ideologies a bad rap.  In the future, I think you are better off simply describing your views, and letting the discussion flow naturally.  If people happen to make insults towards you, respectfully respond to it when it happens.

There's no sense entering a discussion anticipating that people will view you in a biased manner.  I am not liberal on many issues, and so far on this forum, people have been very understanding of my political and economic views.

[meikle]

Quite often it is used in a way that defines someone as a perfectionist even, and yes it is also used in the same way as that other N word which is also used to try and put people in their places and silence debate.

What I did was examine the language you use and how it may relate to your experience of having people treat you in a manner that you find disrespectful.  If you "choose to take insult," well, those are your words, not mine.  Make a different choice?

Or simply address your peers with respect without regard to their political views when politics aren't relevant to the discussion.  Sorry; politics, religion, and money: those are the unsafe subjects.  Don't bring them up in every breath you take and you may find that people are more open to you.  Alternatively, bring them up in a respectful, clear manner, and at least people will do the same to you.

Or lament that "Leftists" are intolerant and worse than Nazis and then wonder why people take you to task for it, instead.

[Lost Boy]

What I did was examine the language you use and how it may relate to your experience of having people treat you in a manner that you find disrespectful.  If you "choose to take insult," well, those are your words, not mine.  Make a different choice?

And you examined it wrongly or wanted to feel a certain way. The funny thing is you then responded in the exact same way that you felt I was writing in except you really were attacking me. The point is you could have just asked.

Anyway, good day to you.

[Neysha]

I think this last page is a perfect example of toxicity on the forums. 

[Paladin101]

Lost Boy, how exactly is it you think you're being attacked, when meikle was very calmly pointing out the fact that your choice in phrasing, and how you presented yourself, is likely partly to blame for you being attacked? You may not have noticed it, but your posts were phrased in such a way that it was an attack on others. The white supremacist/black panther/muslim radical comment? meikle is correct in the fact that your phrasing was, deliberately or not, highly suggestive that the person you were speaking to sympathized with black panthers and muslim radicals. How? Well I'm glad you asked.

Let's start by looking at exactly what you said.

would you flame or disrespect a Muslim radical or Black Panther or do you only disrespect people who you feel don't match your politics

Now if we examine this turn of phrase, we see that you begin it with asking if  they would disrespect a muslim radical or black panther. Then you ask if they would ONLY disrespect people who don't match THEIR politics. Therefor you have implied that radicals and black panthers are a group that they agree with, and that you are asking them if they would attack people whom they agree with. Maybe you aren't familiar with how a phrase can be turned, maybe you aren't familiar with debating, but I can tell you from experience, that HOW you say something is JUST as important as WHAT you say. It is very easy to slip in turns of phrase, and slide around emotions with tricky turns of a word, it's called manipulation and politicians and speakers do it all the time. The phrasing you used was an attack, whether you realize it or not.

So basically what I am saying is, meikle has a point. I noticed it when I read this thread before I even got to her post, your phrasing jumped out at me as an attack. You use inflammatory words and turns of phrase that could easily set someone off in a defensive attack. So if you want to avoid those evil leftists attacking your conservative views, than I would recommend that you learn to present your views without implanting barbs against those evil leftists in every other sentence. Go back and really read what you wrote mate. If you don't see that barbs and the inflammatory remarks, then I suggest you just not get into debates on an online forum, unless you want to end up in fights.