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Author Topic: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.  (Read 924 times)

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Offline MizerTopic starter

The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« on: September 16, 2013, 10:02:41 PM »
So I'm beginning to notice that there are two sides to America.  There is, well, America, which is the land of tolerance, free speech, and all that good stuff we heard about in school.  Then there is 'Murica, which is the block headed, racist, intolerant, homophobic, discriminatory, and hair pulling idiots that should never be allowed near a public forum like Twitter.

So according to 'Murica, anyone with a darker shade of skin are one or several of the following- 1: Muslim, 2: Middle Eastern, 3: terrorists, or 4: work in a gas station or fast food joint.  And it seems that 'Murica believes that since we have elected a lady of Indian descent to be Miss America, our country is clearly in a tail spin out of control.  If the idiots in 'Murica keep making me facedesk, I'm gonna knock all of my teeth out.

For the record, India isn't part of the Middle East, nor is it an Arab country.  India is a primarily Hindu country with less than 25% of it's population being Muslim.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/a-lot-of-people-are-very-upset-that-an-indian-american-woman

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 10:19:49 PM »
You know what.. there is always a butt-ignorant asshole who wants his say no matter what is true or not about what he/she/they are saying. I try to ignore them, as more often than not they aren't willing to learn, refuse to admit they are wrong and won't move on anyway.

There are better ways to waste calories than to try.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 11:49:57 PM »
*gives Ramsey a desk-pillow*

It serves double-duty for those long nights when you find yourself in danger of waking up with a keyboard pattern embossed on your face.

If we could somehow arrange for the two sides to occupy different cohesive regions of the country... but I think the brain-drain would become an issue.

Alternatively, we could strap the 'Muricans down 'Clockwork Orange' style and play this on an endless loop for 24 hours or so:

(linked for Saturday morning cartoons PSA-ness.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyAJT-Dgcc

Online Neysha

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 07:07:48 AM »
First I heard about it.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 12:07:57 PM »
As much as I also agree with the other posts above (as well as the fact that I am also non-white American), I sometimes think these headlines are a bit sensationalist, and trying to blow up the idiotic/uneducated views of a small number of people, into some sort of national crisis of "two sides of America."  I have read this BuzzFeed article, as well as similar articles on CNN, Huffington Post, MSNBC, etc.  I notice that all these outlets seem to be recycling the same 15 or 20 racist tweets - so I am struggling to see how the views of a handful of idiots suggests a divided America.  Yes, racism certainly exists, but if we enter a society where no racism exists, we will always have a tiny percent of the population that are idiots, and makes stupid comments like this.  Does that mean that society is racist?  Absolutely not.

One of the biggest criticisms has been against Todd Starnes - a member of Fox News - for his tweet: "The liberal Miss America judges won't say this - but Miss Kansas lost because she actually represented American values."

People have misconstrued this to no end, and suggested that it represents his view that "American values" suggests being white.  I have discussed this with a couple of other people on E, and we reached the same conclusion that Todd Starnes himself openly discussed in an article: "The American values I referred to were her military service, her support of the Second Amendment and her devotion to God."  (Source)  Whether or not we agree with that analysis, or whether or not we believe in God, Starnes is essentially saying that we, as Americans, despite coming from so many backgrounds and cultures, do indeed have a core set of distinctly American principles, that gives us a national identity.  Again, it is not a matter of whether one is religious or not, or likes guns - it is about a cultural heritage as Americans.  For example, if you go to any given central European country, you will see people still celebrate Christianity as a cultural tradition (not necessarily as a religious one), since it serves as an important aspect of their heritage - and ultimately still unites a diverse set of people of all views (atheists, agnostics, christians, so on) simply as a cultural element, rather than as a religious one.

On that same token, is it racist to suggest that someone who enjoys going to community get-togethers, is patriotic, barbecues, hunts, and tail-gates high school football games, represents the American culture more than someone who does not?  If so, we truly have become an overly-politically-correct society.  America represents a multicultural society and as a result, we have an obligation to respect all ways of life and cultural traditions.  But the United States has always been a melting pot with a distinct "American way of life."  To me, and many other people, being a real American is more than simply being born in the United States - it represents embodying the American cultural norms and having a passion for civic duty.  Suggesting that we are a country with no sort of community fabric or common shared principles (regardless of our backgrounds) is weakening us, rather than strengthening us.  More so than ever, we are a nation of people who segregate ourselves based on our political views, our cultural views, our heritage, and so on - which I think is a terrible shame.

I realize that given the views of most posters on E, this will not be a popular view.  Whether or not you agree with my views, I find it remarkable that any sort of discourse on ideologies in public suddenly becomes deemed racial discrimination.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:33:12 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 12:29:17 PM »
I may be dating myself, but I remember when Miss America contestants put on their perfect smiles and their perfect dresses and their perfect tiaras and talked about wanting world peace and and end to poverty and starving children.

Oh, and it was big news when Vanessa Williams was crowned.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 12:48:54 PM »
I take your point, Valthazar (and its a suspiciously well argued one.  Why aren't you comparing things to Hitler and making homophobic slurs?  Are you sure you should be on the internet?)

BUT.  Are those values American values, or are they the values of a subset of America?  I know dick all about this girl but even if she's a practicing Hindu who speaks Hindi at home then she's still American.  By that fact and that fact alone her values are by definition American values.  So, yes.  It is racist to suggest someone who goes to town hall meetings and all the other stuff you said represents American values more than someone - an American someone - who doesn't.  What you're doing, and I suspect accidentally, is defining "America" to exclude anyone who doesn't share the same values as those who go to town hall meetings and etc etc etc.

Offline Florence

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 12:55:15 PM »
I can understand people who were upset that soldier-girl didn't win, cause... I thought it was kinda cool to have a badass Miss America contestant... but the people calling foul cause of her race... and... actually getting that race WRONG, are just damn idiots.

If we're gonna play this game that you have to be the 'proper American' ethnicity to be Miss America, there's only one group that can possibly ever hold that title.



Though to be truly accurate, we're all African. Though I suppose we don't know our 'true' point of origin until we can point out exactly where the first single-cell organism that eventually became us lived.

Offline mia h

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
One of the biggest criticisms has been against Todd Starnes - a member of Fox News - for his tweet: "The liberal Miss America judges won't say this - but Miss Kansas lost because she actually represented American values."

People have misconstrued this to no end, and suggested that it represents his view that "American values" suggests being white.  I have discussed this with a couple of other people on E, and we reached the same conclusion that Todd Starnes himself openly discussed in an article: "The American values I referred to were her military service, her support of the Second Amendment and her devotion to God." 

Just a few questions come to mind.
Why is only military service an American value? Why not all services that are there for the public good, such as teaching or cardiology?

Why is it that only support of the 2nd Amendment is an American value? What have all the other Rights done wrong that supporting them isn't an American value?

Why is devotion to God an American value? You have to ask, how does Starnes know that Ms. Davuluri isn't a devout follower of an unspecified religion? Or is only devotion to a particular God an American value? But if the constitution is the physical embodiment of American values,it makes it pretty clear that promoting a single religion is about as Un-American as it gets.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:02:29 PM by mia h »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 12:59:04 PM »
I take your point, Valthazar (and its a suspiciously well argued one.  Why aren't you comparing things to Hitler and making homophobic slurs?  Are you sure you should be on the internet?)

BUT.  Are those values American values, or are they the values of a subset of America?  I know dick all about this girl but even if she's a practicing Hindu who speaks Hindi at home then she's still American.  By that fact and that fact alone her values are by definition American values.  So, yes.  It is racist to suggest someone who goes to town hall meetings and all the other stuff you said represents American values more than someone - an American someone - who doesn't.  What you're doing, and I suspect accidentally, is defining "America" to exclude anyone who doesn't share the same values as those who go to town hall meetings and etc etc etc.

Kythia, you may be surprised then, when I say that I am culturally Hindu - just like Nina Davuluri - and a child of Indian immigrants, just like her.  I have great pride in my cultural heritage, but I also realize how fortunate I am to have been welcomed by Americans to be a part of a new, shared, cultural legacy as unified Americans.  As a result, I have made it a point to jump into the "melting pot" of American culture, and have found myself to be welcomed as a fellow man. 

I tried to make a valid point, but I see that this discussion has already made a turn to calling people racist.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 01:04:48 PM »
I tried to make a valid point, but I see that this discussion has already made a turn to calling people racist.

My apologies if that's how my post came across.  It wasn't intended to be an attack on you, I obviously phrased it pretty shoddily.

Offline mia h

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 01:48:33 PM »
Got to love someone who complains about
an overly-politically-correct society
who then calls the first person who disagrees with him a racist.

America represents a multicultural society and as a result, we have an obligation to respect all ways of life and cultural traditions.

On that same token, is it racist to suggest that someone who enjoys going to town hall meetings, joins the military, barbecues, hunts, and tail-gates high school football games, represents the American culture more than someone who does not?

So all Americans are equal, but some are more equal than others. George Orwell would be so proud

Offline Shjade

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 01:49:38 PM »
I suspect the point of Valthazar's argument - and a thousand pardons if I'm misinterpreting, Val - is that, while all cultures and races and etc. are welcome in America and, indeed, are a part of American culture, these combined cultures are not, in their combined state, the same as they are in their points of origin. They may be very similar, but simply by nature of their context they are executed differently, interwoven with their neighbors differently, to better "fit" with the greater whole of the country's collective culture. There is a culture that is distinctly American, a culture that is the compiled pieces of these various others inserted into what it was when it started.

However, I'd disagree that the core of that culture is town hall meetings, gun enthusiasm, etc. as, really, what could be more American than, say, the Vietnam protests and everything surrounding that movement, the whole hippie thing, all of that. You know, the distinctly disorganized anti-gun free love thing? Basically the antithesis of everything about Miss Kansas (exception: the tattoos) and, at the same time, incredibly "American."

Miss Kansas very much represents a specific minority group of American culture. America, the whole of it? Not as much, save in that she demonstrates one element of its variety of flavors, that variety itself being very American indeed.

edit: mia, I can't tell if you're just trying to pick a fight or honestly misinterpreting his post in the most hostile way possible.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:52:23 PM by Shjade »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 02:02:51 PM »
I suspect the point of Valthazar's argument - and a thousand pardons if I'm misinterpreting, Val - is that, while all cultures and races and etc. are welcome in America and, indeed, are a part of American culture, these combined cultures are not, in their combined state, the same as they are in their points of origin. They may be very similar, but simply by nature of their context they are executed differently, interwoven with their neighbors differently, to better "fit" with the greater whole of the country's collective culture. There is a culture that is distinctly American, a culture that is the compiled pieces of these various others inserted into what it was when it started.

Shjade, thank you for understanding the perspective I was trying to make.

I am simply saying, that we need to have certain core American values and ideals that are shared by all us - whether White, Asian, Black, etc. 

Some of these values could include - participation in the community, volunteerism, civic responsibilities, patriotism.  In saying this, I am actually trying to find more unity in us, than divisiveness - which many here seem to be missing.  If you look at the United States today - a so-called diverse country - we are essentially a collection of small, segregated communities, rather than a truly heterogeneous mix of races and cultures that share common, core, American values.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:32:05 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 05:34:45 PM »
Jeez, I thought people were only this dumb in rhetoric or on 9gag... to see people actually reacting this silly to a beauty pageant is really, really sad...

Offline Tairis

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 08:52:04 PM »
These kind of reactions are what make the news go around these days. We can't go 24 hours without a new sensation to latch onto.

Offline ladia2287

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 05:57:32 AM »
I may be naive, but my understanding of beauty pageants is that you are supposed to be judged on just that, your beauty. The main prize going to the contestant who the judging panel feel to be the most beautiful. Personally, I suspect that this year's winning Miss America contestant may have been chosen as a result of pressure to get rid of the reputation that Western beauty pageants have of only picking out the Barbie dolls as winners, but even if that is the case, so what? For a year she gets to proudly say that out of hundreds of candidates, she was handpicked as the most beautiful of all of them. That may come across as shallow, but the sad fact is that she has entered a competition that is essentially shallow anyway. She isn't running for a seat in Congress. She's trying to win the right to wear a massive tiara. Her personal and cultural values shouldn't make that much of a difference. That's why it's called a beauty pageant, not a political aspirations pageant.

Offline Titania 91

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 07:57:04 AM »
I may be naive, but my understanding of beauty pageants is that you are supposed to be judged on just that, your beauty. The main prize going to the contestant who the judging panel feel to be the most beautiful. Personally, I suspect that this year's winning Miss America contestant may have been chosen as a result of pressure to get rid of the reputation that Western beauty pageants have of only picking out the Barbie dolls as winners, but even if that is the case, so what? For a year she gets to proudly say that out of hundreds of candidates, she was handpicked as the most beautiful of all of them. That may come across as shallow, but the sad fact is that she has entered a competition that is essentially shallow anyway. She isn't running for a seat in Congress. She's trying to win the right to wear a massive tiara. Her personal and cultural values shouldn't make that much of a difference. That's why it's called a beauty pageant, not a political aspirations pageant.
Well said. I completely agree. America is always going to have those people who would complain or mock anything done in a public setting. There are always going to be people who are intolerant of others because of their race and/or sexuality and/or religious beliefs. That's America for you. We allow for people to share their views even if only a small majority agree with them. Congrats for her. Once her year as Miss America is finished, she'll go back to school or begin her career as a doctor. More power to her.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 10:15:16 AM »
Well said. I completely agree. America is always going to have those people who would complain or mock anything done in a public setting. There are always going to be people who are intolerant of others because of their race and/or sexuality and/or religious beliefs.

I think all of us agree that in an ideal world, race should not mean anything.

However, the backlash for this particular case seems to have more to do with many Caucasian-Americans' fear of an American society that is increasingly becoming forcibly multicultural to the point where the dominant Caucasian culture of the past is quickly becoming the minority.  I think it has less-so to do with 'racism' and more-so to do with fear of losing cultural identity.  I think this attitude is common in Western Europe now too, where many cities now have Caucasian minorities. 

I try to see issues from different peoples' perspectives, and I think instances like this are emblematic of larger repressed concerns.  It is certainly a very divisive view these people have, but the more we try to mask these emotions as 'racism,' the more repressed we are making their legitimate concerns.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 10:21:03 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Vekseid

Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 03:04:12 PM »
Maybe if such societies were not so hell-bent on making it prohibitively expensive to raise a child it might be less of an 'issue'.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: The outcome on the Miss America pageant.
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 03:25:59 PM »
Maybe if such societies were not so hell-bent on making it prohibitively expensive to raise a child it might be less of an 'issue'.

Oh, I fully agree.  The only reason I made that comment is because a lot of these racists are actually just people who are fearful about their "culture" transforming before their eyes.  Main reason I commented was because I just saw a show on ABC a few days ago about this kid called Matthew Heimbach who is started a white student union at his college because he's worried that his culture needs representation now.  His perspective on starting a cultural organization is not exactly a racist point of view, but it is people like him who would express concern over this Miss America.  But some of those tweets are ridiculous.