Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.

[Formless]

I love history; the only problem is that there's so many events and societies, and so little time here on Earth to study them all.

Who has a soul? So an interesting thing I've encountered in Islam is the concept that all animals have souls and can honor God, albeit they do so in ways we would not recognize.  Which I think may tie into Formless' explanation earlier of the woman who starved a cat to death being destined for Hell?

Anyway, in Islam, beyond humans, jinn, and animals, are plants considered to have souls?  Is there such a thing as a living being which has no soul?  Also, is the concept/cautionary tale of people selling their souls to the Devil/Iblis a thing which occurs in Islam like in Christianity?

From an Islamic Perspective? It is said that whatever lives Worships God '.

But what can we consider as a living creature? I ask this question because during the days of Solomon , he commanded the wind as well as he commanded every living creature except for men. So does that make the Winds a living creature with a soul? Also , does worship means a creature has a soul?

I suppose these questions are beyond my own understanding. I may have my own opinion about them , but I doubt I'll ever understands it myself.

[Formless]

Islam does not derive from Christianity, really. I understand that Unitarianism had a presence in Arabia pre-Islam, and it along with other Eastern churches may have informed his theology but probably didn't define it.

Islamic scholarship mentions Hanif, which combined with Muhammad's claimed descent might mean that they were a theological sibling of Judaism in much the same way that Samaritans were/are.

Christianity, however, did not have so pleasant a relationship with the Jews.

There was the doctrine that the Jews committed deicide, for one. The many Gnostics considered the Abrahamic god (as in, Allah) to be outright evil, and this seems to be less controversial to some early Christian scholars than the roles Gnostics were willing to permit women to hold in society.

Christianity's ties to Judaism is in this sense even looser than Islam's.

I suppose I should've worded better. As I was referring to how Judaism , Christianity & Islam are all religions bestowed upon humans by God ( Allah ).

I didn't mean to say that Islam was a product of Christianity or Judaism. But rather a product of the same god who initiated these religions.

[Skynet]

Rightly so.

However , Pork meat was mentioned 4 times in the qur'an. The one mentioned by Wajin.

And three other verses

Verse 173 , Sura 2
Verse 145 , Sura 6
Verse 115 , Sura 16

In each verse , Pork was mentioned in the company of either the ' dead ' , the ' strangled ' the ' foul ' , or the ' bloodied '. Some people thought that Pork was deemed ' vile ' ( for the lack of a better word ) when compared to other creatures like the Lamb or Cow.

But this begged the question of why was it forbidden when God created it as a domestic animal? You could consider a Boar as a dangerous animal , but Pork ... I wouldn't know myself. But this is what one could easily draw from these verses.

I myself am not certain of Christianity forbids pork at all , because it seems strange how Judaism came before Christianity , and it forbade pork , then Christianity came , and then Islam followed and renewed the forbiddance. It just sounds strange to me to be honest.

Islam does not derive from Christianity, really. I understand that Unitarianism had a presence in Arabia pre-Islam, and it along with other Eastern churches may have informed his theology but probably didn't define it.

Islamic scholarship mentions Hanif, which combined with Muhammad's claimed descent might mean that they were a theological sibling of Judaism in much the same way that Samaritans were/are.

Christianity, however, did not have so pleasant a relationship with the Jews.

There was the doctrine that the Jews committed deicide, for one. The many Gnostics considered the Abrahamic god (as in, Allah) to be outright evil, and this seems to be less controversial to some early Christian scholars than the roles Gnostics were willing to permit women to hold in society.

Christianity's ties to Judaism is in this sense even looser than Islam's.

Actually, I just remembered something.  In Ethiopia today many Christians still observe Jewish dietary law of kosher products.  Ethiopia was the first known country to declare Christianity as the state religion (around 300 AD).  So in comparison to newer Christian nations they probably preserved more of the older rules, along with being separated so far from mainland Europe probably meant that they evolved more or less on their own.  That's my thought at least.

[elone]

Actually, I just remembered something.  In Ethiopia today many Christians still observe Jewish dietary law of kosher products.  Ethiopia was the first known country to declare Christianity as the state religion (around 300 AD).  So in comparison to newer Christian nations they probably preserved more of the older rules, along with being separated so far from mainland Europe probably meant that they evolved more or less on their own.  That's my thought at least.

From Wikipedia: Armenia became the first state in the world to adopt Christianity as its official religion,[19] in between late 3rd century to early years of the 4th century (the official date is 301 AD). Armenians are proud of this.

[Skynet]

So some time ago I found a recent video on YouTube purporting to show the interior of the Kaaba.  It struck me in that it claimed to be the first such video to do this.  I wondered if there were any restrictions regarding this and talked with Formless who said it would be okay to show it.  I also saw other Muslim YouTube channels sharing footage of at later dates.

Video proper starts at 1:35 mark:



At various points in the walls are tablets with Arabic scripts carved into it (1:45 mark and 2:26 mark).  I was wondering if anyone here could translate what they're saying.

[Oniya]

While I can't translate the exact words, I think I've found out what the plaques are.

From a list of 'Ten Things You Didn't Know About The Kaaba'

4. The inside contains plaques commemorating the rulers who renovated it

For years many have wondered what it looks like inside the Kaaba. Relying on second or third hand accounts from those who were lucky enough to enter just wasn't satisfying enough. Then one lucky person who went inside took his camera phone in with him and Millions have seen the shaky footage online.

The interior of the Kaaba is now lined with marble and a green cloth covering the upper walls. Fixed into the walls are plaques each commemorating the refurbishment or rebuilding of the House of Allah by the ruler of the day. Watch the video below of the only place on Earth that you can pray in any direction you want, the House of Allah, the first place of worship for mankind – the Kaaba.

[Formless]

While I can't translate the exact words, I think I've found out what the plaques are.

From a list of 'Ten Things You Didn't Know About The Kaaba'

That's pretty much it. I never been inside the Kaaba myself. But that's what they say is inside it.

[Skynet]

The Qu'ran and writing materials:

So it's been posted earlier in this thread, but one of the oldest surviving Qu'ranic scripts was on display in Birmingham University.  Interestingly it appeared much like a typical material of a paperbound book.

As the Arabian peninsula isn't the greenest of regions, I was wondering how Muslims got the material to make more traditional books.  Mecca was a trade city, so it's plausible that paper and lumber could be imported from more temperate climates, but traditionally civilizations in the Middle East and North Africa (Babylon and ancient Egypt are the two biggest ones which come to mind) used papyrus scrolls and clay tablets.

Did early Muslims ever revert to or use non-paper materials when such wasn't readily available?  Are there any known Qu'rans in non-book format such as tablets and the like?  Or did the Arabian peninsula have trees in certain regions which might have been used to make traditional books?

[Formless]

I think they sometimes used leather , wood , and stone tablet to write ' fragments ' of the Qur'an.

Of course this is what we're taught in history. There might be some stone tablets shown somewhere in the world. But some of the carvings in the Two Holy Mosques contain writings from that old age. Not too many of them , but just a few.

I doubt there would be any full volume of the Qur'an written in anything but paper. And if I would hazard a reason , its because the Qur'an was written during Othman's era , the third Rashidi caliphate. His time was more prosperous than the previous two so trading routes and markets prospered during his time.

[Cassandra LeMay]

The Qu'ran and writing materials:

So it's been posted earlier in this thread, but one of the oldest surviving Qu'ranic scripts was on display in Birmingham University.  Interestingly it appeared much like a typical material of a paperbound book.

As the Arabian peninsula isn't the greenest of regions, I was wondering how Muslims got the material to make more traditional books.  Mecca was a trade city, so it's plausible that paper and lumber could be imported from more temperate climates, but traditionally civilizations in the Middle East and North Africa (Babylon and ancient Egypt are the two biggest ones which come to mind) used papyrus scrolls and clay tablets.

While wood pulp is a common source of paper today, what you really need is cellulose, and there are many sources for it besides wood. The earliest Chinese papers (dating more than 2,000 years back) were made from hemp. Other plants might well serve the same purpose. Also, the Arabian peninsula is boardered by some mountainous regions that could easily supply wood without requiring very long trade routes. The Lebanon cedar, to name one example, grows in Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and parts of Syria.

[Lustful Bride]

*raises hand* doesn't most of what Isis does make them heretics to their own faith? Shouldn't they be excommunicated? Or whatever the Islamic equivelant is.

[Kythia]

The problem there,  ,LustfulBride, is that there isn't really anyone in Islam who can do that. I'm not sure if you're religious or not, but imagine you are and further that I'm a member of the same religion. If you do something to piss me off I can regally declare that you're excommunicated, sure. But who the fuck am I? Even if I am the head or an influential person in my own sect and can get all my mates to agree that you're a stupid stupidhead and totes shouldn't be allowed in our gang I still have no sensible authority to declare you not part of the religion in any way that exceeds futile rhetoric.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yeah - Islam is structured more like, say, Protestantism than Catholicism; there is no Islamic Pope with supposed authority over the entire religion (only God/Allah gets that privilege). Hence the rampant sectarianism.

[Formless]

The problem there,  ,LustfulBride, is that there isn't really anyone in Islam who can do that. I'm not sure if you're religious or not, but imagine you are and further that I'm a member of the same religion. If you do something to piss me off I can regally declare that you're excommunicated, sure. But who the fuck am I? Even if I am the head or an influential person in my own sect and can get all my mates to agree that you're a stupid stupidhead and totes shouldn't be allowed in our gang I still have no sensible authority to declare you not part of the religion in any way that exceeds futile rhetoric.

Yeah - Islam is structured more like, say, Protestantism than Catholicism; there is no Islamic Pope with supposed authority over the entire religion (only God/Allah gets that privilege). Hence the rampant sectarianism.

Exactly so.

And the cause for Daesh to become what they are , is because of the gap between Islamic countries as a whole. During the rise of the Islamic nation during the Abbasid , Omayyad and the Rashidun , there used to be a ruler for that nation. A single ruler , named Khalifa ( In English pronounced as Caliphat. )

Daesh claims they are the Caliphat now. And setout to correct everything. Well that's what they think , but they're just set out to fulfill that sick twisted desire to cause war.

If there was a ruling Muslim figure , the chances of Daesh and the like coming to existence were slim. ( Not impossible , but much lesser than now ).

But that will not happen , due to how international politics works now. To be under a singular Islamic rule , means to give up authority over state to someone else. You wouldn't see Saudi Arabia , Egypt , Iran or anyone else giving up their authority over their land and become a mere representative to someone else.

And this is just how politics works. Religion itself doesn't really function the way most westerners think it does. If a Saudi Mufti produces a fatwa about X. A Mufti from a different country might disagree with him , producing a fatwa that contradicts it. So Islam's practice in general isn't a 100% parallel in all countries.

To unite Muslims under a single rule is practically impossible. Besides its been foretold in many Hadiths that Islam itself will fade.

[Lustful Bride]

Besides its been foretold in many Hadiths that Islam itself will fade.

That is actually kind of sad. 

Though it kind of fits in with a theory I had that when one of the three faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) fades or dies out then that's when the end of all will actually begin. I don't remember when I came up with this or how but I've held onto it for a while. I actually have a personal bet going to see which one is right, and if I am Il be riding that train for eternity.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

[gaggedLouise]

Yes, a supposed Caliph - but one that was recognized by most of the Muslim world, not like ISIS* own bggeyman - would be the only one who could legitimately excommunicate them, I figure.'

But they're criminals and kneejerk killers to very many ordinary muslims and imams anyway. It would be great to see more vociferous protests against the abuse of the name of their faith from that kind of angle.

[Formless]

That is actually kind of sad. 

Though it kind of fits in with a theory I had that when one of the three faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) fades or dies out then that's when the end of all will actually begin. I don't remember when I came up with this or how but I've held onto it for a while. I actually have a personal bet going to see which one is right, and if I am Il be riding that train for eternity.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Actually the prophecy speaks of Islam's end and how the world will live 40 years without a single person practicing Islam. And after those 40 years , judgment day begins. Perhaps there's something similar in the Bible or the Torah.

But they're criminals and kneejerk killers to very many ordinary Muslims and imams anyway. It would be great to see more vociferous protests against the abuse of the name of their faith from that kind of angle.

Sadly , none of those who should take responsibility from the Islamic world is taking responsibility and taking action against them. Hence why Daesh became what they are now.

[Lustful Bride]

This is getting rather morbid...we should go onto happier things.

OH fun fact: The Bible actually has mention of a Unicorn! Yeah I will swear on this the unicorn is in the Bible. (though some say that what is described is actually a rhino but im kind of on the fence about that...I feel like they would have had a word for Rhino back then and, I just really want a Unicorn when I get to heaven...>_>....) so im just curious, do Unicorns also appear in your text? Or something similar?

[Dhi]

A pegasus called al-Buraq flew Muhammad to Jerusalem. I'm told that the winged steed is sometimes used as a placeholder for Muhammad himself in classical art, since it's understood that he's carrying the prophet on his back.

[Skynet]

Also...

Evangelism in Islam is referred to as dawah.  In many cases one hears of Christian missionaries today going to foreign locals such as Asia and Africa  to convert local tribes and villages.  The Mormons are a well-known example of this, as well as the Jews for Jesus in regards to a specific cultural group.

I definitely know it happened in older times, but are there high-profile/well-known examples of Muslim missionary groups and organizations?  I recall a news article where Turkey and Saudi Arabia separately offered to fund the construction of the first mosque in Cuba earlier this year, but I think it was done more for the country's existing Muslim population who did not have a mosque proper.

[Formless]

This is getting rather morbid...we should go onto happier things.

OH fun fact: The Bible actually has mention of a Unicorn! Yeah I will swear on this the unicorn is in the Bible. (though some say that what is described is actually a rhino but im kind of on the fence about that...I feel like they would have had a word for Rhino back then and, I just really want a Unicorn when I get to heaven...>_>....) so im just curious, do Unicorns also appear in your text? Or something similar?

A Pegasus called al-Buraq flew Muhammad to Jerusalem. I'm told that the winged steed is sometimes used as a placeholder for Muhammad himself in classical art, since it's understood that he's carrying the prophet on his back.

I suppose there could be a similarity. However , when Mohammad rode to Jerusalem , some scholars says that the Pegasus himself was Gabriel morphed into the fastest steed that god ever created. While others claims that the Pegasus was offered to Mohammad as proof of god's miracles. A fascinating story either way.

Also...

Evangelism in Islam is referred to as dawah.  In many cases one hears of Christian missionaries today going to foreign locals such as Asia and Africa  to convert local tribes and villages.  The Mormons are a well-known example of this, as well as the Jews for Jesus in regards to a specific cultural group.

I definitely know it happened in older times, but are there high-profile/well-known examples of Muslim missionary groups and organizations?  I recall a news article where a group in Saudi Arabia (forget if it was an independent group or government-sponsored) offered to fund the construction of the first mosque in Cuba earlier this year, but I think it was done more for the country's existing Muslim population who did not have a mosque proper.

That might've happened. I think during the 90s was when the government of Saudi Arabia took an interest to spread Islam. But little by little it became more of an individual's effort rather than governmental. Politics maybe ...

[Skynet]

Making up for missed prayers: If for some reason a Muslim is physically incapable of performing salat for a prolonged period of time, such as a coma, are there any specific ministrations that must be performed to make up for this?

I heard that a Muslim should enact voluntary prayers in addition to the normal 5 day salat until balance is achieved.  Is this the recommended or most common way, or are there things to do?

[Formless]

Making up for missed prayers: If for some reason a Muslim is physically incapable of performing salat for a prolonged period of time, such as a coma, are there any specific ministrations that must be performed to make up for this?

I heard that a Muslim should enact voluntary prayers in addition to the normal 5 day salat until balance is achieved.  Is this the recommended or most common way, or are there things to do?

Actually it really depends. If you say ' Physical ' impairment , or disability , then that is very different from being in a coma.

If someone suffers from paralysis and is unable to move their legs , they can still perform the prayer while sitting down , laying on their side , or laying flat on their back. The performance differs from regular prayer , but it is still required if the person is mentally capable of performing it.

Now if someone's in a coma , there's too many Fatwas about it , so it really depends on who you'd like to follow.

Some say that a Muslim whenever they gain back their consciousness , they must pray for all the times they missed.

Some say that it isn't necessary to do so , since one of the conditions for Prayer is ' Sanity & Awareness '. A person in a coma isn't aware of anything , thus it isn't required of them to pray.

Some say that one could donate some of their time or money for charity , or fast a period of time to make up for that.

Hope that answers the question.

[Kythia]

What's the method for new fatwas being disseminated? How does the ordinary Muslim in the street get to hear of them, and to what extent is that method formalised?

[Formless]

What's the method for new fatwas being disseminated? How does the ordinary Muslim in the street get to hear of them, and to what extent is that method formalised?

In Saudi Arabia , a new Fatwa is usually announced in the papers and in the local news channel. As for other countries , I'm not sure.

As for being formalized , if it affects social conduct , the religion police ' Motawa " will enforce it. Fatwas are also used to reinforce any royal decree. Like when the bombings happened a few months ago , the Moftis produced a fatwa calling for the arrest and for the death penalty for the perpetrators. So its more of a tool than an item of enlightenment.