You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 10, 2016, 06:56:43 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35532 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #575 on: February 05, 2016, 09:40:28 PM »

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #576 on: February 05, 2016, 11:47:15 PM »

Another relate to how the Shi'ite declared the Qur'an partially false after the death of Mohammad.


Okay, at this point I have to go "what?"  Where did you hear this?

Apologies if I sound skeptical, but I believed that a big thing within Islam is how the Qu'ran is God's word given to the people, and there's a huge emphasis to learn classical Arabic so as to understand it in its original context.  To say that it would be partially false in this instance (or at least the way this sounds to me) would be to imply that God's lying.  I know within secular Christianity there are those who say that some parts of the Bible are not applicable, but they often chalk it up to flawed humans being fully unable to condense God's word into human language.  I don't know if there's a parallel idea with significant traction in Islam that isn't extremely secular.

Or is it more "partially false" in that you're saying Shi'ites believe the true Qu'ran was destroyed or altered and thus an imperfect version was passed about the Muslim world?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 11:49:19 PM by Skynet »

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #577 on: February 05, 2016, 11:54:57 PM »
I know within secular Christianity there are those who say that some parts of the Bible are not applicable, but they often chalk it up to flawed humans being fully unable to condense God's word into human language.  I don't know if there's a parallel idea with significant traction in Islam that isn't extremely secular.

Or is it more "partially false" in that you're saying Shi'ites believe the true Qu'ran was destroyed or altered and thus an imperfect version was passed about the Muslim world?

Some Christians (Like myself) also believe that the church and other mortal parties have possibly altered the Bible over time and such. Like there are some who say the parts dealing with homosexuality were tossed in by a pope at some point and that some entire sections may be missing. Not that the entirety of the Bible is wrong just that some parts of it might not be what was intended, or fully applicable in the modern world since its a very different place to 2k years ago. So we just try to follow the basic tenants of "Don't be a bad person" as best as we can and honor God as much as we can...to varying degrees of success.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 11:58:09 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #578 on: February 06, 2016, 09:52:58 AM »
Okay, at this point I have to go "what?"  Where did you hear this?


Or is it more "partially false" in that you're saying Shi'ites believe the true Qu'ran was destroyed or altered and thus an imperfect version was passed about the Muslim world?

I worded it poorly , so I apologize for that.

Originally, I was referring to how there's many possibilities to what originate the rift between the two sects. And since both sects despise the other , there's a lot of different reasoning based on whom you listen to and what source they borrow from.

The accusation of the Qur'an being false is loosely related to the time when Uthman , the third Caliphate , called for the Qur'an to be written for fear of being lost since the only source for it was the minds of those who learned it from Mohammad or those near him.

They claimed that some of what they wrote at that time is false and is was the Sunnis writing what they see fit to their ideologies at the time.

How true is that, is beyond me.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #579 on: February 06, 2016, 09:24:00 PM »
I worded it poorly , so I apologize for that.

It's cool.  Your latest explanation makes a lot of sense now.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #580 on: February 12, 2016, 01:52:13 PM »
Malcolm X's perception abroad: I'm already well-acquainted with how many in the United States view the man, although I'm rather interested in how he's viewed abroad especially in predominantly Muslim countries.

While browsing Reddit I found a 1984 Iranian postage stamp bearing his visage, so I figured that at least in Iran his legacy is viewed as positive:



In a semi-related note, there was a time I was watching the Japanese anime Ghost In the Shell, where a character's debate on the different approaches to revolutionary tactics contrasted Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X, albeit it was a brief line.  That, along with the Iran stamp, surprised me in that although such men were instrumental figures in US history, I didn't expect them to be as well known outside the country.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #581 on: February 12, 2016, 09:57:12 PM »
I can speak for my country only. Sadly , very few knows Malcolm X and even fewer knows his history. He's never mentioned in schools , and he's never been referenced by any religious figure I've known back then. I myself only known about him when I watched the movie about him. And imagine my surprise when I learned some of the movie's scenes were actually filmed in Makka. But , no one talks about him. Not in my circles anyway.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #582 on: March 05, 2016, 09:23:51 PM »
The Omnipotence Paradox: Are there any Islamic viewpoints on this, the question "can God create a boulder so big that he himself cannot lift it?" or some variation thereof?

Music: I've heard of some Islamic sects or organizations which take a dim view of music, whether of all kinds or of ones regarding subjects not exalting God.  Or that spoken music is okay but instrument-based ones are not, and various others.  But there are many Muslims who listen to music and whose countries have a musical tradition, and Sufis incorporate song and dance into their religious rituals.  There are some Muslims who say that only music made by women playing a daf (one-sided drum) is allowed.  Then there are ones who say it's okay as long as the performer's gender matches the audience majority.

This is all from the Wikipedia article on "Islamic Music," which also states that this was a hotly debated issue between the schools of jurisprudence.

I was wondering what the reasons and roots for the "no music," "music can only glorify God," and variations on the matter.

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #583 on: March 05, 2016, 11:44:41 PM »
The Omnipotence Paradox: Are there any Islamic viewpoints on this, the question "can God create a boulder so big that he himself cannot lift it?" or some variation thereof?


I always hated those. The point of a Paradox is that it has no answer. @_@

 So whatever way you answer, you are still wrong.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #584 on: March 06, 2016, 08:50:44 AM »
The Omnipotence Paradox: Are there any Islamic viewpoints on this, the question "can God create a boulder so big that he himself cannot lift it?" or some variation thereof?

Islam views God as the Almighty who simply ' says ' what he wants and it happens. So basically, Islam denies that paradox.

{His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.} Verse 82, Sura 36

Music: I've heard of some Islamic sects or organizations which take a dim view of music, whether of all kinds or of ones regarding subjects not exalting God.  Or that spoken music is okay but instrument-based ones are not, and various others.  But there are many Muslims who listen to music and whose countries have a musical tradition, and Sufis incorporate song and dance into their religious rituals.  There are some Muslims who say that only music made by women playing a daf (one-sided drum) is allowed.  Then there are ones who say it's okay as long as the performer's gender matches the audience majority.

This is all from the Wikipedia article on "Islamic Music," which also states that this was a hotly debated issue between the schools of jurisprudence.

I was wondering what the reasons and roots for the "no music," "music can only glorify God," and variations on the matter.

For the most part , you can hear music in almost every islamic country in the world nowadays.

But the religious view of it, its all about who passes the fatwa. For example , when I was young , Everyone was saying that music is forbidden, and its "Satan's voice". But lo and behold , now even Imams and Sheiks have their own TV shows and the intro have all kinds of music in them.

The bit about the daf, it used to be the instrument to use in weddings. Now however, families hire singers and no one pats an eye. I think they used to use the daf because at the times of the prophet it was used to celebrate his weddings. But Its just something I heard , there's no real proof to that. For all I know , it could've been just a fatwa passed by someone from the early years of modernization.

I can't speak for any sects on this matter. All I can say is , music used to be an item of conflict between religious folk , now its not.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 10:10:27 AM by Formless »

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #585 on: March 08, 2016, 04:35:47 PM »
Is a woman's hair considered an erotic body part in many Muslim countries? I heard that there are some places (like in Turkey, non-Daesh parts of Syria, and Nasser-era Egypt) where women don't need to cover their hair and nobody will bat an eye, but considering the rationale being modesty I was wondering if it was due to men in those regions traditionally finding it arousing.

Or is it non-erotic but immodest? Like how a man's chest isn't considered inherently erotic in many Western countries, but a guy walking around shirtless isn't appropriate for many social occasions ("no shirt, no shoes, no service" is a common phrase for retail businesses).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 04:56:51 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #586 on: March 08, 2016, 07:28:32 PM »
Its more of a cultural fashion/religious item.

For example. Let's take Saudi Arabia & Egypt.

In Saudi Arabia, women wears the Abaya, A black dress that covers the woman from head to toe. In Egypt , some women wear the Hijab , which covers the hair. Very rarely you'll see a woman wearing a Abaya in Egypt.

So it depends on which country you're from.

I think its safe to say its about modesty. Modesty mixed with a lot of religious belief in some countries like mine.

Hope that answers the question. :-)

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #587 on: March 15, 2016, 07:17:23 AM »
Its more of a cultural fashion/religious item.

For example. Let's take Saudi Arabia & Egypt.

In Saudi Arabia, women wears the Abaya, A black dress that covers the woman from head to toe. In Egypt , some women wear the Hijab , which covers the hair. Very rarely you'll see a woman wearing a Abaya in Egypt.

So it depends on which country you're from.

I think its safe to say its about modesty. Modesty mixed with a lot of religious belief in some countries like mine.

Hope that answers the question. :-)

I've always found Saudi Arabia a bad and dangerous example of Islam, which is why it's so popular with those that vilify it. In my opinion Saudi Arabia's special brand of 'Islam' Wahabism seems to combine every negative stereotype you can think up about muslims: Violence, oppression, misogyny etc.

As for Turkey, the reason there is no hijab in many places (university for example) has little to do with Islam. In the 1920's Turkey's great leader Ataturk rose to power, and forced upon the country a form of secularism, mostly to appease the western countries he saw as perfect trading partners and cultural examples. Hence he put in place rules to enforce this secularism which have made Turkey an example of modernisation for decades. Of course with the rise to power of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, much of this modernisation is at risk of being negated.


Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #588 on: March 15, 2016, 03:58:20 PM »
I've always found Saudi Arabia a bad and dangerous example of Islam, which is why it's so popular with those that vilify it. In my opinion Saudi Arabia's special brand of 'Islam' Wahabism seems to combine every negative stereotype you can think up about muslims: Violence, oppression, misogyny etc.

Pre 2006, I would agree.

Post 2006, Things have changed. Not in the way the western world envisions , but there's a lot of changes. Though I doubt the news media in the rest of the world would focus on that.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #589 on: March 16, 2016, 10:36:00 AM »
I'll admit, I don't live there, so I don't get everything. But last time i went to Saudi Arabia it was to visit the family of a man sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes for writing that it would be nice if people were to be able to speak their mind. This was 2014 by the way.

Most muslims I know were appalled by this, but the consensus seems to be 'it's Saudi arabia what do you expect'

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #590 on: March 16, 2016, 11:07:06 AM »
By any chance , are you referring to ' Raef Badawi '?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #591 on: March 16, 2016, 01:20:14 PM »
I always hated those. The point of a Paradox is that it has no answer. @_@

 So whatever way you answer, you are still wrong.

The point of paradoxes is that they highlight logical inconsistencies. The Barn Door Paradox for the speed of light, for example. Without a complete and proper answer, there is something wrong with Einstein's Relativity.

Formless's answer echoes that of Augustine - it doesn't address it because it predates the question for the most part (except for 'can God deny himself?' which may not have entered into Islamic thought).

The general direction you would probably take that is to not assume pedantic definitions of omnipotence - there is good reason to dislike the question itself. Still. >_>



Speaking of gods, did news of AlphaGo's success make any waves in Saudi Arabia at all?

Is there any Islamic perspective on artificial intelligence? If not, how do Muslims feel about it?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #592 on: March 16, 2016, 02:28:54 PM »
Speaking of gods, did news of AlphaGo's success make any waves in Saudi Arabia at all?

Is there any Islamic perspective on artificial intelligence? If not, how do Muslims feel about it?

Go itself isn't popular in Saudia. And even I had to google AlphaGo to know what it is. >.>

As for artificial intelligence itself , nothing in the Qur'an mentions it. But A.I is pretty much already a part of our daily lives , in the simplest forms of computer programs , or on the internet.

Offline Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #593 on: March 16, 2016, 02:31:07 PM »


Speaking of gods, did news of AlphaGo's success make any waves in Saudi Arabia at all?

Is there any Islamic perspective on artificial intelligence? If not, how do Muslims feel about it?

*Personally doesn't trust AI*

I was also curious about the Islamic perspective on aliens. The Catholic church says that even if there is alien life, it doesn't much change things. I like to think that it proves Life is meant to exist and not just a fluke.


Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #594 on: March 16, 2016, 02:48:41 PM »
I was also curious about the Islamic perspective on aliens. The Catholic church says that even if there is alien life, it doesn't much change things. I like to think that it proves Life is meant to exist and not just a fluke.

Qur'an itself doesn't deny it.

{The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.} Verse 44, Sura 17

This verse mentions that whatever lives in the seven heavens (though a better translation would be 'skies') exalts god. But the Qur'an never mentions what lives there. So there could be other beings or there could be not.


Offline Vekseid

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #595 on: March 16, 2016, 10:22:35 PM »
Go itself isn't popular in Saudia. And even I had to google AlphaGo to know what it is. >.>

As for artificial intelligence itself , nothing in the Qur'an mentions it. But A.I is pretty much already a part of our daily lives , in the simplest forms of computer programs , or on the internet.

Let me phrase it more directly then.

Imagine a mind that is the gestalt of all human ability. Maybe she takes a human avatar, maybe not.

How would you feel about such a creation?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #596 on: March 16, 2016, 11:32:50 PM »
Let me phrase it more directly then.

Imagine a mind that is the gestalt of all human ability. Maybe she takes a human avatar, maybe not.

How would you feel about such a creation?

I myself would be impressed.

Islam as a religion wouldn't have anything against any form of Artificial intelligence.

An artificial mind that can surpass the human mind in every possible way is still an invention by humans themselves. That does not conflict with my faith at all. That's more like an achievement.

Some people might be against it. But those who would try to do so , are probably the same kind of people who said that the Radio was ' Satan's box ' when it was first brought into Saudi Arabia. But then they realized it was just a machine. And they throw the same **** when the television was first brought into Saudia. And the same thing happens whenever something new is invented.

I mean , to this day, the government here does not accept any sighting to the new moon for Ramadan unless it was sighted by the naked eye. Even if the Presidency of Meteorology and environment sighted the new moon through their telescopes , it won't be accepted.

So its not the faith that will have a problem with any scientific achievement. Its those who practice it.

I hope this answers the question. :-)

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #597 on: March 16, 2016, 11:55:53 PM »
I mean , to this day, the government here does not accept any sighting to the new moon for Ramadan unless it was sighted by the naked eye. Even if the Presidency of Meteorology and environment sighted the new moon through their telescopes , it won't be accepted.

So, what happens when it's overcast?  (Admittedly, this would affect telescopic sightings as well.)

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #598 on: March 17, 2016, 05:52:20 AM »
So, what happens when it's overcast?  (Admittedly, this would affect telescopic sightings as well.)

If that happens , the previous month is continued to a full 30 days.

The point of the sighting for Ramadan , or any month is to determine if its a 29 or 30 days in the Islamic (lunar) calender.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #599 on: March 19, 2016, 09:34:27 PM »
Zakat Payment: When a Muslim wishes to pay their percent of annual charity, is it ever handled in an official capacity? Do Muslim countries have zakat paperwork akin or part of tax return forms? Do Muslims in Muslim countries have to provide proof or documentation that they paid the zakat, if not legal then for social reasons? Or is it entirely a personal thing in most cases?

Wikipedia mentions that most Muslim governments leave the process to individuals, save for a few such as Saudi Arabi and Malaysia which regulate it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 10:16:24 PM by Skynet »