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Author Topic: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."  (Read 808 times)

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Offline SkynetTopic starter

Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« on: July 29, 2013, 01:16:17 PM »
"...if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?"

Naturally this statement is open-ended, but it's already making headlines in Catholic circles.

According to the Washington Post, Francis was more conciliatory than his predecessors who said that homosexuals should not be priests, saying gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

I suppose this is a step forward of sorts.  Homosexuality might no longer be an automatic ban on priests, if Francis holds to his words.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:17:35 PM by Skynet »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »
I feel as if this will once again be rescinded by the Vatican, similar to what happened with the "atheists aren't necessarily going to hell" bit (Forgot the actual phrasing and it got buried in here.) The Vatican is going to give us a day to be like "yay! The pope is being awesome!" before they yank it away from us and we're like.... "Well damn... f' you too Vatican."

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 01:43:23 PM »
The Vatican didn't "rescind" anything about atheists going to heaven. It was just misreported, seriously.

There is nothing very groundbreaking about Francis' statement here, either. It's going to be reported as if he's implying gay clergy can be ordained. He is likely not. It's just that such statements of humility and tolerance actually are a standard part of Papal pronouncements and politics. They get reported more from Francis than from prior Popes because he actually gives the impression of having his heart in them.

The more interesting part of that interview is probably what he has to say about the Vatican Bank, which might actually translate into policy.

Offline Shjade

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 01:55:29 PM »
Is it wrong of me to imagine this statement followed by, "Oh right, I'm the pope," with a good-natured papal chuckle?

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 02:25:13 PM »
I am not catholic, but I really like Francis. He's got something very friendly and open about him.

Offline alextaylor

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »
I feel a little sorry for the pope to be honest. He might, deep down, have a more liberal opinion. But if he started anything slightly pro-LGBT, he'd get torn apart by the people he's supposed to be leading. He's trapped in his position.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »
I am not catholic, but I really like Francis. He's got something very friendly and open about him.

Neither am I (Catholic), but I was always really impressed by John Paul II. Remains to be seen if Francis can live up to JP2 or not, though I suspect it'll be difficult.

I feel a little sorry for the pope to be honest. He might, deep down, have a more liberal opinion. But if he started anything slightly pro-LGBT, he'd get torn apart by the people he's supposed to be leading. He's trapped in his position.

Agreed. The best he can do is baby steps, giving small informal comments like this, and hoping (or literally praying) that his successors follow the trend, and inch by inch start making the Church more tolerant. Not much consolation for LGBT folks today, or their kids, or probably even their grandkids, but nice to think about way down the line.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 04:18:51 PM »
I was listening to NPR on the way back from Jury Duty screening.  They had one of the reporters from the interview on the phone and he clarified a few things.

Being homosexual isn't automatically 'evil', BUT homosexual acts are still sins.

Offline windstar

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 04:40:04 PM »
Being homosexual isn't automatically 'evil', BUT homosexual acts are still sins.

I'm a lifelong Catholic and even as a child that made me roll my eyes so hard I'm lucky they didn't get stuck in the back of my head.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 05:56:47 PM »
That pretty much sums up most of the Church's views on 'acceptable sex' and 'unacceptable sex'.  Having the desire for any kind of sex outside of the purpose of procreation within an approved union is one thing - actually doing anything about it is where there's a problem.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 08:09:16 PM »
I'm a lifelong Catholic and even as a child that made me roll my eyes so hard I'm lucky they didn't get stuck in the back of my head.


Mmm, it is an outdated distinction when it's used that way. But it comes out of an age when most people didn't really think of sexual orientation as a baseline part of one's identity, as an inalienable part of what makes you truly YOU.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 09:18:39 PM »

Mmm, it is an outdated distinction when it's used that way. But it comes out of an age when most people didn't really think of sexual orientation as a baseline part of one's identity, as an inalienable part of what makes you truly YOU.

I actually find it kind of hypocritical given the abuses the Church has hidden over the years.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 09:52:09 PM »
A gay debater around here put it in this half raunchy way; Is it really reasonable that a college of seventy-year old men who are sworn to the idea that they themselves would never have sex at all, to lifelong abstention, should be passing judgment on other people's sexual habits?  ;)

Offline Florence

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 02:18:31 AM »
Its a step forward, but lets face it, the Vatican has a LOT of PR damage to repair.

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 08:13:40 AM »
A gay debater around here put it in this half raunchy way; Is it really reasonable that a college of seventy-year old men who are sworn to the idea that they themselves would never have sex at all, to lifelong abstention, should be passing judgment on other people's sexual habits?  ;)
+1

Offline mia h

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
"Who am I to judge them if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?"

or to put it another way "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Nice there's at least one pontiff that's read the Bible.

Offline alextaylor

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2013, 08:54:05 PM »
Being homosexual isn't automatically 'evil', BUT homosexual acts are still sins.

I like to debate this issue. Most of the religions which forbid homosexuality don't really forbid being homosexual. If you zoom in to the dogma, sodomy is about 'practicing unnatural sex'. Everyone is tempted into sin, homosexual or not. There is no crime in being tempted. Islam has this "life is a test" philosophy, which means that some people would be 'tested' with homosexual tendencies, and thus could very well be natural.

I think a lot of homophobics believe that homosexuality or other kinks are developed or conditioned. So, they believe that someone who is homosexual has been trying to approach sin.

There's still a long way from conservatives allowing gays to get married. But under the same logic, married heterosexual couples are still tempted into sodomy (i.e. oral and anal sex). Society should be able to trust homosexual couples the same way.

Offline vtboy

Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 09:25:21 AM »
There's still a long way from conservatives allowing gays to get married. But under the same logic, married heterosexual couples are still tempted into sodomy (i.e. oral and anal sex). Society should be able to trust homosexual couples the same way.

The difference, of course, is that the temptation to engage in sodomy must be more compelling for homosexual couples than it is for heterosexual ones, since fewer avenues for physical intimacy are available to the former than to the latter. It would seem, therefore, that those who believe sodomy is a sin should be more tolerant of the act in homosexuals than in heterosexuals, if less trusting of homosexuals to overcome the temptation.

Though I don't pretend to have statistical evidence on the matter, I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that many of the heterosexuals who would not share their pews with unrepentant, practicing homosexuals on Sunday morning enjoyed one form or another of these earthly delights on Saturday night. Perhaps, then, the focus on religious doctrine with respect only to homosexuals is too myopic, and what is needed is a more fundamental reappraisal of religious proscription of what consenting adults may or may not do with their genitals (and other body parts).
   

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 10:26:21 AM »
what is needed is a more fundamental reappraisal of religious proscription of what consenting adults may or may not do with their genitals (and other body parts).
 

I'd back that proposal.

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Re: Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge them..."
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 10:47:03 AM »
I'd back that proposal.
Yes, me as well.