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Author Topic: Extreme Slowness?  (Read 4042 times)

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Offline Kyrsa

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2013, 05:06:05 PM »
No one said they hated you for it, Scott. People are giving their opinions of the idea. Some will agree and some will disagree, it's human nature.  You are more than welcome to your opinion and I don't question your right to hold that opinion.  It's valid, and it would likely help monetarily, but in my opinion the cost of doing so would be to high in other ways.   

Offline Trieste

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2013, 05:20:56 PM »
What I gather from that is "Stop writing, work harder". That's... kind of ignorant. It speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding as to the situation that many people are in. I mean, I could probably work harder... I'm not quite spending 26 hours a day between work and school... I could, I dunno, not sleep.

Saying "just work harder!" really, really hurts. You have said a hurtful thing, and while I don't hate you for it, I'm sad that you think that way. It makes me really, deeply sad.

Offline Silver

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2013, 05:37:55 PM »
Kinda feeling misquoted, so here's the whole sentence:

Yeah I said that, I'll stand behind it, hate me for it, feel free.

I never once stated that I hated you for your statement, nor disliked you either.

I feel that it came across as a bit harsh and overly cold. I respect that you have a point of view but it's not one that I personally share in regards to the topic at hand.

Offline Naiah

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2013, 05:46:23 PM »
I had made up my mind to stay out of this thread after the comment about how its so easy to be bitchy and complain.

But you know what? I wasn't being bitchy and complaining when I asked my questions or raised my concerns. I do value all that Veks does for us, I do value this site. I wouldn't have donated or signed up for a subscription if I didn't. Just because someone asks some questions, doesn't make them a complainer. I genuinely want to help keep this site going and the only way to find out how to, is to ask.

But this is a literary site where we all browse several threads and spend countless hours writing posts and there is nothing more frustrating when accessing these threads at times take up to 5 mins just to load.

I don't think it makes me a bitchy complainer when I say that BM bogging us down with their PMs is unfair. We do pay for most of this server and I do think its unfair other sites are crashing the server or causing loading problems.

I understand where Scott is coming from, as the only real solution to this problem is getting a really expensive server (as removing the other sites off this server isn't an option unfortunately).
We do have to face the facts, it is going to take money to keep the loading times to something acceptable, as I dare say people will also start leaving if this slow loading gets worse. So I do see Scott's idea as something that could be done, because can we honestly gather 6-7 thousand dollars together any time soon? Last auction got us 1 thousand and it was said several months would have to pass before another could be made, so that would then take us over a year, perhaps 2 before we got 7 thousand, wouldn't it?

I love this site, but it needs a new server and how else can we raise enough money to get it? Subscriptions and donations sure aren't getting us there. Either way people will likely leave :(

Offline Caeli

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2013, 05:55:47 PM »
If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

Like I said earlier: Elliquiy is much more than just a place to write. Even if you're running a negative income or just barely making it by- and those of us who are going to college, etc., who aren't working full-time or who may be paying back debts, mortgages, etc., are - telling us to work harder and to not find a place to rest, or a place where we can find peace or get advice, is... simplistic.

Sometimes, that supportive community means a lot more than you can quantify with dollar amounts.

Offline Silver

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2013, 05:59:54 PM »
If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

Like I said earlier: Elliquiy is much more than just a place to write. Even if you're running a negative income or just barely making it by- and those of us who are going to college, etc., who aren't working full-time or who may be paying back debts, mortgages, etc., are - telling us to work harder and to not find a place to rest, or a place where we can find peace or get advice, is... simplistic.

Sometimes, that supportive community means a lot more than you can quantify with dollar amounts.

+1

You said that much better than how I was trying too.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2013, 06:56:12 PM »
I love this site, but it needs a new server and how else can we raise enough money to get it? Subscriptions and donations sure aren't getting us there. Either way people will likely leave :(

Hi Naiah. :) I don't think you are being bitchy. I think that there is no limit on donations as it stands, and if various users can get together and donate that money, that would probably work much better than trying to get blood from a stone in the form of paid membership.

Offline Naiah

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2013, 07:11:18 PM »
Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2013, 07:20:58 PM »
Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

I completely understand the reasoning. What I am disagreeing with (and I don't mean to be confrontational, so I hope I'm not coming across this way) is that there is extra or more money sort of laying around. I think that people are really trying hard to contribute, members know we need an upgrade, and members have always been very generous in the past when things are needed. I think that the money hasn't come in because it simply is not there.

Does that make some sense? I'm not trying to talk in circles.

Offline Caeli

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2013, 07:23:54 PM »
Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

I don't think it sounds bitchy at all, and you have valid concerns about our server and where our money is going, and who else is on the server that Elliquiy donations also support. As (what I'm assuming) a subscriber yourself, I'd understand why it might feel frustrating from your point of view.

I still don't think "forcing" members to pay for access would be the solution, though; it's a move that would be bound to alienate and exclude people for any number of reasons, from not being able to afford it, to not having a valid way of donating, to even simply not wanting to pay or donate (and I genuinely do not feel that not wanting to pay for access makes a member any less, or any less deserving, as a member). In the past, the memberbase has responded very well and very generously when a call is put out for financial support and donations. I really do think that it's a very, very tough economy, and that for some people who may want to donate (or even who have donated in the past), it is simply not possible to do so.

Oof... ninja'ed by Trieste.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 07:25:15 PM by Caeli »

Offline Scott

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2013, 07:35:15 PM »
I don't remember the members of elliquiy voting or even being asked if we wanted to take on BM, or any of the others onto the new server that Elliquiy bought. I just remember all of the sudden about 6 months after we bought the latest and greatest thing, it wasn't good enough anymore and we lost the SB because of "system limitations", and it's gone down hill ever since.

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2013, 07:38:10 PM »
Um, it's not like the old server is still there for Veks' other sites to be 'left behind' on.  Unless you were suggesting that Veks pay twice as much in server fees?

Offline Elina

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2013, 08:17:14 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2013, 08:18:53 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

When I asked about that, it was explained to me that it's because BMR doesn't necessarily have thousands of members displaying it all at once. >.>;

Offline Elina

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2013, 08:22:14 PM »
That makes sense.  If they lost theirs, would it make enough of a difference in the slowness issue to make a difference?  I know zilch about this stuff.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2013, 08:39:56 PM »
I don't remember the members of elliquiy voting or even being asked if we wanted to take on BM, or any of the others onto the new server that Elliquiy bought. I just remember all of the sudden about 6 months after we bought the latest and greatest thing, it wasn't good enough anymore and we lost the SB because of "system limitations", and it's gone down hill ever since.

Blue Moon in most circumstances never impacted Elliquiy. It's doing so now in a way that removing it would change little - and only for a very short time.

The shoutbox remains on Blue Moon, but is absent from Elliquiy, because while Blue Moon's PM schema is fucking moronic, (Elliquiy's is somewhat better, just 'quite stupid'), its integration mechanic is far more lightweight than Elliquiy's. SMF loads the entire kitchen sink on integration, and the developers declared that this was necessary for some reason. Similar to my comments about MyBB's PM schema - though unlike SMF where I made a great deal of progress, did not get anywhere with MyBB. Ah well. The shoutbox on Blue Moon is having zero impact, despite it being responsible for more php and database requests than everything else on the server combined.

That's how a well-oiled system works.

In any case, the long loading times are because it needs to read data from the disk. Current host wants $2,700/month to max out this server's RAM, which would give us two years or so, if we don't grow. Fuck that noise. Buying our own server for $8k, could get a server to max out at half a terabyte of RAM (though maybe only 32 or 64 gigs to start) - for a flat cost, and maybe another $20/month for another half-amp. We'd own the server then, though, which would greatly expand our options when it came to getting a new server for any reason. This makes this a far more 'permanent' solution than our current situation, though obviously not indefinite. Longer than the three years we're trying to eek out of this thing, at least.

A 16-core system could handle the shoutbox on E for a short time, but that would unfortunately still be temporary. The only permanent fix to many woes is new software. It would take a crazy amount of money to fix that. (Edit: As in, make the shoutbox work on SMF nigh-indefinitely).



Um, it's not like the old server is still there for Veks' other sites to be 'left behind' on.  Unless you were suggesting that Veks pay twice as much in server fees?

A new server would return us to the status quo we had two years ago, where sites never impacted each other. Elliquiy would regularly crash under the shoutbox load while Blue Moon ran fine. Same was true during the DDoS.

Plus, the server I'm looking at has eight drive bays. Can give Elliquiy its own SSD, even.

I realize it rustles people, but in case it isn't clear

Blue Moon is not the source of our troubles. The source of our troubles is that stuff occasionally gets loaded from disk, rather than sitting in RAM, because we don't have enough and our host wants to charge 1/3rd the price of a top of the line 1u server every fucking month to buy us a rather short amount of time. Blue Moon -exacerbates- this problem, but this isn't something that's going to come back any time soon on a new machine, occasional fundraisers for RAM at reasonable prices (a few $k for a half terabyte) excepted.

Elliquiy loses nothing from hosting Blue Moon in most situations, and gains a great deal. I don't want or like bad feelings between the two sites. They serve different niches, and give each other reinforcement.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 08:41:01 PM by Vekseid »

Offline SaffronTopic starter

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2013, 08:46:51 PM »
Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining this all, Vekseid. It's interesting information and makes more sense laid out like this.

My question is how much money would be required to resolve the issue temporarily while the large amount of funding is being amassed for the new server? Is there a smaller bar we could work up toward to purchase more of something that would help us see less loading problems for the time until we can get a new server?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2013, 08:52:55 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

To gets into more detail

MyBB (what BMR runs) and SMF (what E here runs) each provide a variety of hooks to allow other software to integrate with them. On E, this is how the blogs, new ons/offs, etc. work (though not the Wiki).

SMF uses a kitchen sink approach. Most notably, it loads the entire damned theme. Every. Fucking. Load.

MyBB does not do this.

So what happened was, on Elliquiy, the shoutbox completely ate the entire CPU, while Blue Moon barely even registers despite having a shoutbox load comparable to where E was at when I had to bring it down. Blue Moon uses so little CPU that while Elliquiy dominates it, even saturates occasionally, it still functions just fine. MyBB is very well-written in terms of CPU usage.

What's wrong with MyBB's PM system is more complex, but suffice to say it stores a single private message potentially many, many times, and does some completely idiotic queries - like matching the entire contents of a pm just to fucking quote.

In most typical, expected usages of either system, neither of these is really a problem. Most hooks are not hundreds of AJAX requests per second (thus, the blogs and ons/offs still work), MyBB's PMs can usually all be loaded completely into RAM (thus queries don't spend forever trying to work). Good system design will take us much further, however, and it is really my end-goal.

New software will also let me give something to people who donate (and of course, past donors will get credit according to what they've donated), while still allowing people to make use of this site for free.


Offline Vekseid

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2013, 08:55:07 PM »
Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining this all, Vekseid. It's interesting information and makes more sense laid out like this.

My question is how much money would be required to resolve the issue temporarily while the large amount of funding is being amassed for the new server? Is there a smaller bar we could work up toward to purchase more of something that would help us see less loading problems for the time until we can get a new server?

Blue Moon has agreed to implement PM caps.

And sort of, but it's just highway robbery paying these sorts of prices for RAM. I'd much rather raise a small amount, put it all on credit card and recoup later, or something.

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2013, 08:59:01 PM »
Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2013, 09:52:32 PM »
To gets into more detail

MyBB (what BMR runs) and SMF (what E here runs) each provide a variety of hooks to allow other software to integrate with them. On E, this is how the blogs, new ons/offs, etc. work (though not the Wiki).

SMF uses a kitchen sink approach. Most notably, it loads the entire damned theme. Every. Fucking. Load.

MyBB does not do this.

So what happened was, on Elliquiy, the shoutbox completely ate the entire CPU, while Blue Moon barely even registers despite having a shoutbox load comparable to where E was at when I had to bring it down. Blue Moon uses so little CPU that while Elliquiy dominates it, even saturates occasionally, it still functions just fine. MyBB is very well-written in terms of CPU usage.

What's wrong with MyBB's PM system is more complex, but suffice to say it stores a single private message potentially many, many times, and does some completely idiotic queries - like matching the entire contents of a pm just to fucking quote.

In most typical, expected usages of either system, neither of these is really a problem. Most hooks are not hundreds of AJAX requests per second (thus, the blogs and ons/offs still work), MyBB's PMs can usually all be loaded completely into RAM (thus queries don't spend forever trying to work). Good system design will take us much further, however, and it is really my end-goal.

New software will also let me give something to people who donate (and of course, past donors will get credit according to what they've donated), while still allowing people to make use of this site for free.
Thank you for explaining.  I appreciate it.

Offline Cycle

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2013, 11:13:29 PM »
Maybe this is the place that is keeping them grounded, the place that they know that they can come when everything else is falling apart around them.

If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

These two comments.  They describe something I saw in action today.  There was a new member who posted something about their current life situation.  It was a wrenching tale.  This member didn't even know why they wrote the post.  Within a span of a few hours, several long time E members and Staff responded with words of encouragement.  These responders couldn't have known that person well.  And each obviously had other demands on their time (for RL, if not for E).  Still, they all reached out to help. 

To see this happen.  That says a tremendous amount about this place.

Moreover, given what the OP wrote, well, I doubted that they could have accessed E if they had to pay even $5.  So in this one case, the free access helped someone.


Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

I think this would actually be very helpful.  I only stumbled on what E was seeking, in terms of a target, by wandering around...

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Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2013, 03:10:42 AM »
Did we just have a complete outage?  For about 3 or 4 minutes. Its 9.10 in the morning now London time.  Seems sorted now though.

Online Izu

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2013, 03:37:00 AM »
Yep, had the same problem, about the same time.

I got Error 103.

Offline Falstaff

Re: Extreme Slowness?
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2013, 09:09:27 AM »
Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

Hello...just wanted to stop by as a friend here (waves to Naiah) referred me to this thread...I didn't realize we needed a new server to solve some of these problems.  With all the people on E, we should be able to raise the funds...yes I know the times are tough and not everyone is able to help.  But there are some of us that are willing.

I like this idea from Saffron...let's put up a donation bar, specifically for this purchase.  This will bring awareness for all to see.  I was getting ready to make a donation anyways, but now I wonder if I should make a smaller monthly donation or just send in a larger lump sum towards this purchase.

I am willing to put some money up right now, but would like to know the best avenue for these funds.

Any guidance would be appreciated.  I could start off with a $ 300 donation right now for the server...or start putting some money in each month...which is better for E?

Thanks for any advise.

Fals